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Gigi Forkon

2x extender, will help Cover Super 16???

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Hi all,

I like to ask,

if the Zeiss Mutar 2x for the 10-100 T2, will cover Super 16 format, or better.

 

Trying by hand with just the lens, a piece of paper (or real ground glass, or a brusched plexiglass) fixed at focus, it gives me a max.circle of 14mm, how much will be with the 2x extender?

 

:huh:

Edited by Gigi Forkon

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As far as I understand, the Zeiss Mutar 2x teleconverter is just that. It will turn your 10-100mm lens into a 20-200mm lens, effectively doubling the focal length.

I have not done any image circle tests, but the camera aperture for Super-16 is 12.5mm, so your 14 will cover that (in theory).

 

I am not thinking that a 2x converter will have any effect on the image circle. Just like when you zoom with your zoom. The physical image circle cast by the light leaving the rear glass, because it's stationary, will not change. The compression of distances perceived (perspection, I like to call it) will change. But you know all that.

 

A 14mm image circle should be able to cover Ultra-16 on down. Of course, I could be totally wrong.

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X 2 converters have been used to increase the image area, the well known example being the 12mm to 240mm being converted from 16mm format to a 35mm format 24mm to 480mm. However, in this case I suspect you'll need to test the Mutar x 2 yourself, unless someone confirms they've actually done it with 10-100 T2.

 

I know you do need to get Super16 converter for the 10-100 T2 zoom, although it may cover Super16 at longer focal lengths without one fitted.

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The optics within the Mutar might allow it, but the mechanics may be designed to prevent it. The goal of the Mutar is to increase focal length, not expand image area coverage. So to stop stray light from causing other problems, it is likely the mechanical design prevents it from increasing the coverage much. This is standard in most such designs. If you use a 2x designed for 35mm then there should be no such issue, provided that the lens physically fits on the adapter.

 

BTW, the image circle for Super-16 is actually 14.7mm. One must use the diagonal of the frame, not the horizontal measurement. A2+B2=C2 anyone?

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I've tested a Zeiss T2 10-100 with a Mutar 2X on projection and it covers Super 16.

 

The Mutar I tested was a bayonet mount version, but the optics are identical to the later PL mount model, which is compatible with both the 10-100 and the Super 16 converted 11-110. There may have been an even earlier bayonet version that masked the image circle as Mitch describes, but I'm not aware of it.

 

The coverage of zooms is smallest at the wide end (and at close focus). The 10 - 100 covers a Super 16 image circle at focal lengths of above about 32mm (and as low as 25mm at distances of 15 ft or more). So using the Mutar would be helpful for the 20 - 32mm range.

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Late ....Thanks everybody :)

 

@ Mitch,

Like you say, I found that some 2x extenders (35mm fotography) enlarges image and some not, I wish for this mutar :rolleyes:

 

@ Dom

Wow :o

For curiosity, I need to know if over the Super16, it can cover other bigger stuff, like 4/3 sensors etc..., can you please measure the projected circle at focus?

 

This is the STD mount I have:

2684_arri2_1.jpg

 

And I'll need to buy this: (any proposal?)

2df8a81b4d915e20aa2c32c52ae389a7.jpg

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When used with the Mutar 2X the image circle of the 10 - 100 (20 - 200) is actually limited by the iris. As you stop down the coverage decreases, from about a 22mm diameter wide open to about 16mm at T16.

 

So you could theoretically use it on a 4/3 sensor camera if you only shoot at T2!

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When used with the Mutar 2X the image circle of the 10 - 100 (20 - 200) is actually limited by the iris. As you stop down the coverage decreases, from about a 22mm diameter wide open to about 16mm at T16.

 

So you could theoretically use it on a 4/3 sensor camera if you only shoot at T2!

 

Thank you very much!

 

Stopping down :huh:.....how this could happen, for my understanding, seems like the iris is not centered with the focal intercection.

 

The Mutar you have tested, is the same of the photo up?? with same bayonet?

 

Well, anyway I'm still searching for one to buy, on ebay all gone :(

Only Mutar makes this extenders for Arri STD mount?

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Stopping down :huh:.....how this could happen, for my understanding, seems like the iris is not centered with the focal intercection.

I guess the Mutar expands the image circle well beyond what the lens was designed for, and anything outside the 16mm diameter limit doesn't intersect at the iris. It's interesting that the image still projects sharply to the edges even over that limit when the iris is opened up. Maybe an optical engineer could explain it!

 

The Mutar you have tested, is the same of the photo up?? with same bayonet?

Yes, same one.

 

Only Mutar makes this extenders for Arri STD mount?

I don't know. It's the only one I'm aware of.

Your lens is actually an Arri bayonet mount, different to Arri STD (Standard) mount, which was an earlier design. Standard mount lenses will fit in a bayonet mount camera but not the reverse.

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I don't have one handy anymore to test,  but it should fit. The main issue is whether the lens optics protrude too far out the back and hit the optics inside the extender, but I believe the 12-240 doesn't protrude as far as the Zeiss 10-100 that the Mutar was designed to accept, so you should be OK.

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9 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

I don't have one handy anymore to test,  but it should fit. The main issue is whether the lens optics protrude too far out the back and hit the optics inside the extender, but I believe the 12-240 doesn't protrude as far as the Zeiss 10-100 that the Mutar was designed to accept, so you should be OK.

Thank you very much Dom. It's very confusing to me. I read in other post that the mutar will not fit most angenieux zooms.
I have the 12 240mm but I'm in Bolivia so I can't test any extender before purchase it, so I'm blind here. If someone can help me will be very appreciated!

Thanks you!!!!!!!

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22 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

I don't have one handy anymore to test,  but it should fit. The main issue is whether the lens optics protrude too far out the back and hit the optics inside the extender, but I believe the 12-240 doesn't protrude as far as the Zeiss 10-100 that the Mutar was designed to accept, so you should be OK.

I found the mutar, but then i found this post where you said that the mutar will not fit most of angeniex lenses, does the 12-240mm is an exception? 


"The Zeiss Mutar was designed for the Zeiss 10-100 and 11-110 so has a bit more room, but it still won't fit most Angenieux 16mm zooms. The Optex "Colcine Super 16" 2x extender has the most room of all our extenders."

But then you said on this post that:

"the Optex 2x extender for Bayonet mount has an optic that hits the rear of the 12-240 so it's no good.

I tested a Zeiss Mutar 2X (Bayo mount for 10-100) and it fits the 12-240, with no vignetting through the range."

So I found both extenders (optex and mutar) on arri bayonet mount, like my zoom, but I want to know wich one get to fit the angenieux. thank you for your help!

 

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Well, there you go, I must have tested a 12-240 with a Mutar back when I worked for a rental house that had those items, and found that it worked..

The Optex "Colcine Super 16" extender which I said had the most room would be PL mount and a different design to the Bayonet mount Optex extender which is the one that didn't fit the 12-240. You could theoretically use a PL adapter on the zoom and then use the Optex PL extender I guess.

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19 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Well, there you go, I must have tested a 12-240 with a Mutar back when I worked for a rental house that had those items, and found that it worked..

The Optex "Colcine Super 16" extender which I said had the most room would be PL mount and a different design to the Bayonet mount Optex extender which is the one that didn't fit the 12-240. You could theoretically use a PL adapter on the zoom and then use the Optex PL extender I guess.

Thank you so much Dom, your help has been very usefull. I purchased the mutar extender. I'll make some test when I get it and I'll get back to you for an update. Thank you again!

 

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