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[Phil Rhodes]

You don't see me running around demanding that people prove their credentials.

 

Perhaps you should.

[Kieran Scannell]

Just to add, I wasn't demanding your credentials but you make such bold claims about a camera you have never actually shot with!

I'm sure your an excellent cameraman!

[Stuart Brereton]

I never said I shot with one, I said I saw one in person (at NAB to be specific). How about you go out and shoot with it yourself. You don't see me running around demanding that people prove their credentials. People on this site really shock me sometimes.

 

I'm not just talking out of my ass. Watch this if you care to be informed:http://www.fxguide.com/fxguidetv/fxguidetv-106-epic-april-fxphd/

 

 

So you're basing your opinions on what you saw at the RED booth at NAB, where they have total control of what you see, and how you see it. You haven't used one, but yet you feel confident in declaring that footage is amazing, that the workflow is rock solid, and that it beats the Arri Alexa hands down, despite the fact that the footage you saw was provided by RED, the workflow was a demo system on a trade stand, and there was no side by side comparison with any other camera. On this basis, you say it's the Greatest camera ever made.

 

And then you wonder why we don't take your opinion seriously.

[Chris Keth]

You don't see me running around demanding that people prove their credentials.

 

 

Perhaps you should question information a bit more. Nobody here is saying that claims about the epic are false. I haven't shot with the camera yet nor assisted with it, therefore I claim nothing. I think everybody is saying the publicity material deserves a dram of skepticism, given the red company's history of unabashed hyperbole and, depending on your definition of the act, maybe even outright lying.

[J Phillips]

I've assisted with the ALEXA and EPIC. Andrew stated incorrectly: "The Epic is not the One or the MX, it is a fully flushed out system that resolves all of the issues that the first generation system had. The whole Red fanboy accusation is getting old."

 

I find this to be a false statement. The Epic body I worked with has already been sent back to RED HQ twice with problems that should have been discovered before it left the factory. It is a very nice camera, but far from a "fully flushed out system". It is VERY beta at this point. Furthermore, I do not like the new menu system or user button interface as compared to the RED ONE body. The graphics look like Windows 98, are slow to react on the touch screen (which leaves fingerprints on the screen) and there are too many buttons on the side. The HD/SDI out on the rear of the body is recessed too deep making it difficult to attach/ detach a BNC cable quickly on set. The HDRX is nice- although when I used it, it did not remain locked in the menu causing half of the takes to be shot without it. :angry:

 

I most like the menu system and body that the ALEXA uses over any RED camera. Very easy, consistent, simple and reliable. Keep in mind this is coming from an assistant's perspective.

 

I don't necessarily have an opinion on the "Greatest Movie Camera Ever" but I tend to think that if one were to be named, that camera would still be capable of running 35mm film through it ;) . Digital cameras have made bold steps in the last few years but the litmus test for these cameras is still film.

 

The whole "fanboy" deal could possibly be avoided by treating the EPIC as a camera and not the holy grail. You really need to use this camera rather than looking at one in a booth to base an opinion. Within two years we will all be talking about the next best camera and how it puts current systems- RED, ARRI, Sony, etc.. to bed.

[John Sprung]

The Epic body I worked with has already been sent back to RED HQ twice with problems that should have been discovered before it left the factory. .... The HD/SDI out on the rear of the body is recessed too deep making it difficult to attach/ detach a BNC cable quickly on set.

 

What kind of problems? We just finished a pilot on the MX, it still has the dropped frame bug. The post house doesn't even bother flagging them any more, they just throw in interpolated patches without telling anybody.

 

There's a tool the facility engineers use for BNC's in tight places, like the backs of DA's and routers. It's like a screwdriver, but with a tip that grabs the BNC -- open on one side, sorta like a crow's foot wrench. You can get them from Pacific Radio.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[J Phillips]

The RED mote did not work out of the box and later on it was discovered a screw from inside the body had come loose and was rattling around inside the body- no short circuits thankfully. Also, the sensor was not seated properly. Anything beyond that is anyone's guess since it seems that RED's policy is to not divulge what they do to one's camera after they repair it. Seriously- I have seen cameras sent in for repair and then RED coming back with the repaired camera but not willing to say exactly what they did. Not trying to completely knock the company because I do enjoy their cameras to a certain extent, but some of the things they do mystify me.

 

Thanks for the tip on the BNC tool. I was also wondering if maybe there was some sort of extension- similar to a BNC barrel but with a male plug in and a female tail- that is made to simply make the connection protrude out further?

 

JP

[Keith Walters]

The RED mote did not work out of the box and later on it was discovered a screw from inside the body had come loose and was rattling around inside the body- no short circuits thankfully. Also, the sensor was not seated properly. Anything beyond that is anyone's guess since it seems that RED's policy is to not divulge what they do to one's camera after they repair it. Seriously- I have seen cameras sent in for repair and then RED coming back with the repaired camera but not willing to say exactly what they did. Not trying to completely knock the company because I do enjoy their cameras to a certain extent, but some of the things they do mystify me.

 

Thanks for the tip on the BNC tool. I was also wondering if maybe there was some sort of extension- similar to a BNC barrel but with a male plug in and a female tail- that is made to simply make the connection protrude out further?

 

JP

Well, look at that....

We start off with a few throwaway jokes about the Red Culture (not the cameras themselves) and all of a sudden, people start posting real (and potentially useful)information about Red cameras.

I realize that Phil, Richard and myself can never hope to be RED owners due to our bad attitudes, but you never know, maybe someday we'll be in a position to help some other poor soul with a more positive attitude but with a negative RED experience.

Maybe this discussion should be shifted to the RED folder...

[Andrew R]

So you're basing your opinions on what you saw at the RED booth at NAB, where they have total control of what you see, and how you see it. You haven't used one, but yet you feel confident in declaring that footage is amazing, that the workflow is rock solid, and that it beats the Arri Alexa hands down, despite the fact that the footage you saw was provided by RED, the workflow was a demo system on a trade stand, and there was no side by side comparison with any other camera. On this basis, you say it's the Greatest camera ever made.

 

And then you wonder why we don't take your opinion seriously.

 

I have seen footage from Epic owners as well, not Red employees, and it is equally impressive. My statements about the Red workflow come from personal experience, not a chit chat with a Red rep at NAB. People here don't take pro Red statements seriously because they have it out for Red. They love to go against the grain and joke about how trashy Red products are and how everyone who owns one is a fool who kisses Jannard's feet. I think a lot of people hate Red because of the cult like following that the company has.

 

I have a handful of stories about Alexas with tech glitches and construction problems as well so no camera is perfect but in my humble opinion, the Epic is about as close to perfect as you can get. Yes, I played around with one for 30 min at a trade show but I was impressed nevertheless.

 

The site is full of people who formed a negative opinion of Red way back when the One first hit the market and will never reverse that opinion no matter what. People need to get real. Film is going to die within this decade. Digital is the future. Red is really the only company pushing the envelope of digital cinema. Everything else has been a reaction to the Red One. Sony is just now getting around to 4K and Arri has yet to break the 4K barrier and will not anytime soon. It is impossible to deny that the Epic is the most revolutionary and advanced cinema camera on the market. It wins in every category including resolution, dynamic range, form factor, and data storage. It is equal to the Arri in terms of sensitivity as well. Plus, it is cheaper than every other camera. Is it perfect? No, but this camera opens the door to a bunch of new creative possibilities. Instead of ragging on it, go out and shoot with it and form your own opinion.

[Stuart Brereton]

People here don't take pro Red statements seriously because they have it out for Red.

 

For your information, i have shot 3 features and numerous music videos on the RED One. I am by no means a RED hater. I base my opinions on my own experience, and that of people who I trust. That means that as of right now, I don't have an opinion on the Epic, because i haven't used one. You might think the Epic a revolutionary camera, or the greatest camera ever, but as by your own admission you haven't shot a single frame with it, you should be prepared for the fact that people like me, who earn their living from using many different camera systems, will not take your opinions seriously.

[Chris D Walker]

A cinematographer creates a beautiful image. Whether it be with an Epic, an Alexa or any other camera on the market, professional or otherwise. Is every film shot with an MX or an Epic going to look good? No. Is every film shot with an Alexa or Sony F3 going to look good? No.

 

With regards to fanboys, the people who manage Reduser encourage their fanbase by closing threads and banning members that talk out of the comfort zone of "Red is it. It is the greatest camera in the world and every cinematographer who uses this camera is a forward thinking mind who has seen the future." No camera can make someone a visionary mind. A greater insight does that. Others have attested to there being problems with dropped frames and factory repairs in Red products. They're not unique in that respect to having glitches; I'm sure those same people have had similar problems with other cameras, but you don't see anyone running to their defence with the same resolve, if any.

 

As far as resolution and all that jazz, the new Sony camera I expect will be the professional tool that will deliver true 4K images and the film-like dynamic range that can outperform an Epic. The Alexa currently has the edge over the Epic in the respect that is has been readily available since last year and is getting wide use throughout the industry. Perhaps most important, when Sony, Arri and every other manufacturer promise a deadline they meet it.

 

"It is impossible to deny that the Epic is the most revolutionary and advanced cinema camera on the market."

- Allow me to wholeheartedly disagree.

[David Mullen ASC]

The Epic is ahead of the competition when compared to what's on the market right now... 5K RAW at 120 fps in a camera to size of a roll of toilet paper is pretty darn impressive! I've been shooting "Big Sur" on it for a week now and the images are great. And I shot a pilot on the Alexa last month and the images off of that camera are great too... but the resolution is much lower. I'm sure the images out of the future Sony 4K camera will be great too. "Revolutionary" is a loaded word, I think of all of this as being evolutionary more than revolutionary, but I also think that Red has been basically forcing everyone else to play catch-up, which is great for all of us.

 

The Alexa has a mild edge over the Red M-X sensor images in terms of noise/sensitivity & dynamic range, but you have to weigh that against your resolution needs. For TV work, I think the Alexa is a no-brainer choice, the ease of shooting and posting Apple ProRes 4444 combined with the quality of the camera's 1080P images and the ease of using the camera (it's the fastest camera I've ever had to convert from studio to handheld/steadicam mode). But for features, I'd have to first be convinced that a 1080P or 2K finish is OK for the particular project.

[John Sprung]

I was also wondering if maybe there was some sort of extension- similar to a BNC barrel but with a male plug in and a female tail- that is made to simply make the connection protrude out further?

 

You could probably stack up a pair of male and female barrels to do that, but given the frequencies these things have to pass, that might be too many adapters. It's worth buying a pair of good ones and testing the hell out of it. The cheap ones that worked fine back in the NTSC days are pretty much guaranteed not to work reliably. Again, Pacific Radio in Hollywood and Burbank.... Pricey, but they carry the good stuff.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[John Sprung]

I've been shooting "Big Sur" on it for a week now ....

 

Do you know if it has the dropped frame bug that still exists on the MX? We did a pilot on the MX, posted at MTI. They just put interpolated patches in the dailies for the dropped frames. You may have to ask the post house to find out for sure.

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Hal Smith]

Do you know if it has the dropped frame bug that still exists on the MX? We did a pilot on the MX, posted at MTI. They just put interpolated patches in the dailies for the dropped frames. You may have to ask the post house to find out for sure.

 

Any chance this is because video cables are 75 ohm but the connectors traditionally used for video are 50 ohm BNC's? As digital video frequencies get higher and higher into the low microwave region sooner or later the mismatch between the connector and cable's impedance is sure to bite someone, somewhere. There are 75 ohm BNC's but they're usually only seen on test equipment and those connectors are not mechanically compatible with the 50 ohm variety.

 

Also: BNC's never were intended for use much above 1GHz, at microwave frequencies it's best to use either TNC or N connectors. And yes, there are 75 ohm versions of both.

[Neal Norton]

I started a feature 6 weeks ago shooting Alexa. We are shooting Arriraw to codex. We also began the film with an Epic camera that was going to be used for high speed and VFX work. I have seen a fair amount of the Arri footage projected on a large screen and it is VERY good. The thing that impresses me the most is how good our actors look. . . surely due in part to the great work of our cameraman but the results don't have a clinical look like other video cameras I've seen. I think the Alexa makes skin look almost as good as film. From what I've seen the resolution of this camera projected is plenty high enough for theatrical projection.

 

I haven't seen the Epic projected because it only worked very briefly before failing and had to be returned. We now carry a 435 for HS work. This was very disappointing as I think the camera looks like a great tool and I would like to work with it and I would like to buy one when available. But at this time it is not possible to buy, beg or steal one of these cameras. When sorted out and really out on the market I think Epic could be a real contender. How people can say the Epic is good or bad or what before we really have a chance to work a bit with it is strange.

 

The Alexa is widely available, shooting all over the world and is proving reliable and very user friendly. When another actually on the market product is out there we can decide if the Alexa has any competition. And in my opinion, the optical finder on the future Alexa "studio" will be a great asset and for my work will be a much bigger plus than many other features.

 

Neal Norton

Camera Operator

[John Sprung]

Any chance this is because video cables are 75 ohm but the connectors traditionally used for video are 50 ohm BNC's?

 

No, not really. It happens internally to the camera, and is recorded on the cards.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[MikeyWilliams]

And in my opinion, the optical finder on the future Alexa "studio" will be a great asset and for my work will be a much bigger plus than many other features.

 

 

That is probably the best feature an operator could ask for. I am getting so tired of staring at digital screens all the time! Bring optical viewfinders to digital cameras. Makes me so happy to shoot on film and look through the eyepiece and see out the lens, makes my eyes much happier as well!