Super8 Digital Cinema using Beaulieu lenses?

[Dan Hudgins]

I made some new photos of the KineRAW-S8p with different shooting configurations, with anamorphic lens and matte box, with follow focus gear on 12.5mm f/1.4 Fujinon 5MP lens and matte box with Mitchell follow focus, and using a 9.5-57mm f/1.6 reflex zoom that has optical view finder.

 

The color on the viewfinder looks better than how it shows up in the photos, its hard to take a photo of the LCD monitor and get the light on the subject the same contrast ratio and color balance, but to the eye the monitor image show more saturation and tonal range.

 

About when you can purchase one, email Kinefinity.com (sm) and tell them you have a serious interest unless they change the price etc. The more people that tell them they are interested the more they know about the interest.

 

The main question with the S8 is should they put the current design into limited production, or should they have more delays to make improvements?

 

The core of the camera has been working for more than a year, and they fixed some issues through firmware revisions, so its usable now I think for real filmmaking, a few minor changes would be good but it could be produced as is so far for people that are going to use it as intended. The proposed revisions would widen the market, but also maybe delay things for some time and possible inch the price up a bit?

 

I was all for producing the PREVIOUS version that had a sheet metal case, in place of the nice machined one this model has, so I think they could do both but they have their own ideas...

 

They are finishing up the KineRAW-S35 second prototype now, I have gotten some calibration DNG back and the ISO and tonal range and color look good, there are some issues with the OLPF selection.

 

Anyway, here are some photos, I hope to start shooting some hand held shots with the KineRAW-S8p soon, I purchased a 3.5mm f/2.4 Kowa megapixel HR lens, on the videwfinder it looks usable, I will have to shoot some tests because at 1920 wide on Vimeo its a challenge to be flawless, watch out for other camera makers only showing 1280x720 videos as there is a big leap from 1280 wide to 1920 wide in terms of de-Bayer artifacts showing up. I have some work to do on my up scaling features in my de-Bayer program, but if you stand back a 'safe distance' or transfer to 35mm print, they aren't as noticeable as putting ones noise on the 2K computer monitor etc.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

I don't seem to be able to upload the additional JPG files because I have a 100KB quota, but you can see them at this link,

 

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?260134-Chinese-2K-RAW-S35-Cinema-Camera-8000-dollars/page30

 

If you have space in your account, you can capture the full size images from that site and re-post them here as long as you don't change to file-names so that people know its a KineRAW-S8p in the photos. Thanks for your help.

 

I have bigger uncompressed versions of these camera photos if you want to post those someplace you can email me at tempnulbox (at) yahoo (dot) com with "new KineRAW-S8p photos" in the subject line so I know its not junk mail, thanks.

[Anthony Schilling]

Sorry but none of this footage shown here looks like S8 at all. It looks more like a Canon 5D, or even my Sony HDR footage. Attatching a film guage label to one of these cameras is just marketing to people who want to be film makers but would never dare to run actual film through a camera.

 

Here's what real Super 8 looks like, I see no resemblance http://vimeo.com/39061286

[KH Martin]

Sorry but none of this footage shown here looks like S8 at all. It looks more like a Canon 5D, or even my Sony HDR footage. Attatching a film guage label to one of these cameras is just marketing to people who want to be film makers but would never dare to run actual film through a camera.

 

Here's what real Super 8 looks like, I see no resemblance http://vimeo.com/39061286

 

The pentagonal out of focus reminds me of how stuff used to look on the Sanyo S8 cameras (have no idea who made their lenses.) Is that what you shot it on? I don't remember the out of focus stuff taking on that geometry when shooting with cameras that had Chinon lenses, but don't know if it happened on Canon and Nikon S8, since all of my stuff shot on those is long long gone.

 

And yeah, it is lovely, though I was a total Kodachrome guy, except for one short where I used an Ektachrome that was softer than the standard e160. It was either 7242 or 7244, and it was practically Pastel, just lovely and subtle, a really nice contrast to K40. I shot Earth scenes on K40 and heaven and hell scenes on the Ektachrome (think this was around when SOMEWHERE IN TIME did the 'past on Fuji' trick.)

 

Do you have a ballpark on that place's transfer rates for S8? I'm seriously interested in saving the bits and pieces that I've kept in cool closets over the decades.

[Dan Hudgins]

Sorry but none of this footage shown here looks like S8 at all.

 

The subject of the thread was to use Super8 C-mount LENSES on the KineRAW-S8p not about emulating the look of Super8 film stocks. The KineRAW-S8p is an uncompressed 2.5K camera (2592x1104) and is being investigated as a camera to be used in place of 35mm movie film for projection in movie theaters from 35mm release print or 2048x858 DCP.

 

I posted the fourth Vimeo video, D1, showing some hand held footage made with the KineRAW-S8p , you can read my text on that video's page for more information about how it was done and the 1920x817 crop from 1920x1440 shooting mode used.

 

[Chris Burke]

The subject of the thread was to use Super8 C-mount LENSES on the KineRAW-S8p not about emulating the look of Super8 film stocks. The KineRAW-S8p is an uncompressed 2.5K camera (2592x1104) and is being investigated as a camera to be used in place of 35mm movie film for projection in movie theaters from 35mm release print or 2048x858 DCP.

 

I posted the fourth Vimeo video, D1, showing some hand held footage made with the KineRAW-S8p , you can read my text on that video's page for more information about how it was done and the 1920x817 crop from 1920x1440 shooting mode used.

 

 

Dan,

 

Is that you in all the videos?

[Michael Lehnert]

The subject of the thread was to use Super8 C-mount LENSES on the KineRAW-S8p not about emulating the look of Super8 film stocks. The KineRAW-S8p is an uncompressed 2.5K camera (2592x1104) and is being investigated as a camera to be used in place of 35mm movie film for projection in movie theaters from 35mm release print or 2048x858 DCP.

 

Have been away from this site for a while (years, oops), but to pick up on Anthony's point regarding this interesting proposition of a digicam: KineRAW-S8p ; what does the S8p moniker stand for in the trademarked product name, or what does it refer to?

 

/M

[Dan Hudgins]

Have been away from this site for a while (years, oops), but to pick up on Anthony's point regarding this interesting proposition of a digicam: KineRAW-S8p ; what does the S8p moniker stand for in the trademarked product name, or what does it refer to?

 

/M

 

There are two camera models in the Super8 lens format so far, the KineRAW-S8p prototype, and the KineRAW-S8 which is still in the re-design stage.

 

The photos are of the KineRAW-S8p camera, there are no photos of the production model yet. The footage is shot with the KineRAW-S8p model, which may also be produced for sale but you would need to talk to Kinefinity.com (sm) about that issue as I don't know which model they will offer first if any as their could be other changes that's up the them.

 

The KineRAW-S8 may offer a faster higher resolution sensor than the current KineRAW-S8p model being tested. So you should not view any of my lens test footage as a 'final' example of what the end production model may look like, perhaps.

 

Work on the S35 model seems to be moving forward, the last results I have seen seem to be going in the right direction, but then its a bit bigger and costs maybe 4x as much and uses larger lenses etc. The original goal with the Super8 lens format cameras was lower cost for 2.5K resolution, that is possible although for Kinefinity.com 's models the order volume impacts the MSRP to some extent perhaps and the need to make some profit to recover their development costs over the last four years etc.

 

You can ask Kinefinity.com (sm) questions about their products if you want official answers of some kind...

[Dan Hudgins]

Dan,

 

Is that you in all the videos?

 

No, that is my Brother, you can see me at the end of the B1 video in the mirror shot I'm in the shadows looking up at the camera's 7" monitor.

[Dan Hudgins]

I have posted two new KineRAW-S8p videos on Vimeo, if you would like to see the image quality I have some selected frames I can send, you can email me at tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com with "Cinematography.com user wants frames" in the subject line.

 

Here are the links,

 

 

 

The E1 video is shot 1920x1440 for 4:3 black and white cinematography and processed for maximum monochrome dynamic range, you should request the sample frames to see what the uncompressed detail looks like.

 

The F1 video is shot at various over-sample modes for 4:3, 16:9, 2:1, and 2.35:1 aspect ratios. The shooting resolutions are 1920x1440, 2228x1252, 2400x1200 and 2592x1104.

 

The videos were de-Bayered in my free de-Bayer program v0.06 and v0.07 (v0.07 is not posted on my web site yet as I have some things to finish up yet) and the DI was done in my "freeish" DI software.

 

I have a KineRAW-S35 here for testing and calibration now and hope to post some videos shot with it if anyone has in interest in S35 sensor cameras. You can request some Cineform sample clips from Kinefinity.com (sm) by writing directly to the email on their web site, be sure to also request the 3D-LUT that go with each clip so you can see the clips playback in Quicktime or other programs with the color corrected.

[Will Montgomery]

I have posted two new KineRAW-S8p videos on Vimeo

Video looks very good for such a small sensor. Real test is to get it into the hands of some colorists and see what they are able to pull out of it. If the final version of the body can be made smaller that would help keep it in the "Super 8" realm...if you loose the 35mm size sensor it would be nice to have it compact and easy to use.

 

Can't wait to see your S35 posting!

[Dan Hudgins]

I got time to make a lens test video using the Angenieux f/1.2 (T/1.4) 6-80mm Super8 optical format true Zoom lens using the KineRAW-S8p near Super8 optical format Digital Cinema Camera using its 2592x1104x12bit@24.000fps shooting mode.

 

The optical diagonal on the 2592x1104x12bit@24.000fps shooting mode is a bit larger than the Super8 4:3 frame image diagonal, but the Angenieux f/1.2 (T/1.4) 6-80mm Zoom lens seems to cover the area without dark corners and have more uniform resolution than the Schneider f/1.8 6-66 Macro Zoom lens I used for a shot in one of the previous lens text videos I posted to my Vimeo page.

 

I shot some footage with the Fujica 5.5mm f/1.8 EBC Super8 lens made for the Fujica ZC1000 before but it's image circle seems smaller at least as far as corner resolution so I have not posted that footage.

 

I still have a Schneider f/1.4 6-70mm Zoom lens to shoot some lens test footage with to compare to the other lenses.

 

I may try shooting some footage with the KineRAW-S8p using its 2048x1080x12bit@24.000fps shooting mode which is 1:1 pixel for making DCP to project in Digital Movie Theatres, that image diagonal should be closer to the Super8 projection aperture so the soft corners issue would be less pronounced and the radial sharpen in my de-Bayer program's lens corrections might be able to get the resolution across the frame more uniform. I noticed on the camera's viewfinder that the Angenieux f/1.2 (T/1.4) 6-80mm seems to have more uniform resolution compaired to the Schnieder f/1.8 6-66mm were the Schneider may be a bit sharper in the center of the frame, that could be useful for using the KineRAW-S8p 48fps and 72fps shooting modes for hand held shots where the image area is smaller.

 

The production KineRAW-S8 model may have a sensor that reads out twice as fast, and has slightly smaler pixels, so that would reduce the soft corners issues because the active sensor area would be a bit smaller for the same pixel resolution (it would also allow higher pixel resolutions when using Regular 16mm movie lenses, 2/3" and 1/2" format mega-pixel lenses and other lenses that cover the 1/2.3" sensor disgonal).

 

Its been noted that some of the videos don't look like Super8 film, that has something to do with the H.264 conversion for posting on the internet, if you look at H.264 from a HDSLR and then H.264 from any other camera you are looking at H.264 with its intrinsic artifacts and the need to do heavy de-noise before compression to avoid block artifacts and some banding and compression noise issues, because the H.264 frame does not update in whole like a wavelet compressed DCP would, you cannot get accurate grain effects over a H.264 compressed version. In the DCP you can back off on the de-noise and let through the film like grain patterns that such a DNG uncompressed camera can shoot, in particular when using the higher ISO settings.

 

The goal was not to produce soft very granny footage such as simulating a 35mm blowup from a Super8 T500 camera negative, but rather to see how useful the Super8 lenses would be for making feature films when recording to digital resolutions higher than 2K.

 

In making this video I applied lens corrections to some shots and high levels of anti-OLPF sharpen to get the footage closer to what you would want for making a 2K DCP (2048x858 2.39:1 aspect ratio) for projection in todays Digital Movie Theatres, in that case more de-noise and sharpen would be applied than in making a 35mm anamorphic release print, in the film print case the camera noise could be left in to simulate film grain mixing with the film grain in the print stock, but as movie film print stock production has been ended by Fuji and may end by Kodak and Agfa at some point, we are only left with wavelet compressed DCP for theatre projection (IMAX film prints will end when other formats of movie film production end we can presume).

 

But I can say that although the Angenieux f/1.2 (T/1.4) 6-80mm Zoom may not be as sharp as some Schneider R16 lenses I've used in the tests, it can give the footage a nice 1970's look when used between T/2.8 and T/6.3. Wider than T/2.8 there is increasing blue halo that can start to be seen in some of the shots in this #S1 video, in particular at focal lengths between 40mm and 80mm where the zoom stop would have stopped the zoom had I had it engaged.

 

I purchased a Kowa 6mm f/1.2 1/2" format mega-pixel lens that is rated for about 120lp/mm, on the camera's viewfinder it seems usable from maybe T/1.6 to T/6.3. If I get time I may try to shoot a lens text video compairing the resolution and halo of the Kowa 6mm f/1.2 mega-pixel lens (low distortion) to the ANgenieux f/1.2 6-80mm Zoom set also to 6mm to see which looks better overall for night shooting. The main issue for using the Super8 optical format Digital Cinema Camera for night shots is finding a lens that is 2K sharp wide open, so far the best options seem the 17mm f/0.95 Schneider 2/3" format and 25mm f/0.95 Schneider R16 lenses at about f/1.8 to f/2.8, some of the other lenses such as the Computar-Ganz 5mm f/1.4 is not really sharp enough at stops wider than about f/4 and the Kowa 3.5mm f/2.4 needs to be about f/3.5 to f/4 before its not showing too much halo and blur in the corners maybe. Such issues of shooting wide open were there for Super8 film use as well, but the film resolution was lower than the digital sensor so the decline was maybe less noticable wide open, and there was no OLPF thickness to be an issue as well with the corrections wide open. That said, I was shooting under dim lighting between 6pm and 9pm in dark alleys of a guy with dark skin tones wearing all black, and the camera was left at EI ISO 100 and the lens not wider than T/2.8 most of the time and I was able to grade the shots up as needed and still get usable results for most of the footage, I left a few soft shots, mostly at the 80mm focal length, in so you can see where the limitations are, at focal lengths between 6mm and maybe 36mm the results were better looking at the larger openings.

 

If you want to see some TIF frames from the uncompressed footage you can email me directly or message me through Vimeo with the email you want the sample frames sent to so you can see what the processed data looked like before compression. On Vimeo I have the stream set to 1920x1080p so that may stutter if you try to stream it to your computer over your connection. Your computer may not be fast enough to play 1920x1080p without stutter even from the compressed version. The uncompressed AVI used to make the compressed version was over about 109GB and the compressed version under 2GB so that is a lot of data loss making the compressed size. I have this also on YouTube and that player can stream at various resolutions, although I don't know which re-compressed version looks better YouTube or Vimeo, you can compare them if you like, viewing at 1280x720 is probably closer to how it will look from the back of a small art house movie screen.

 

Here are the links:

 

Vimeo version their SD and 1920x1080p,

 

 

YouTube version (several resolutions including 1280x720p and 1920x1080p),

 

 

The KineRAW-S8p prototype shown in the Part: 3 of that video is too large for hand held Super8 format shooting using a pistol grip, I mounted a Bolex 16mm pistol grip on it for testing but Kinefinity knows about that issue and plans on making changes to the production camera to make it smaller and have other improvements as they are able it seems. You can email them if you are interested in the Super8 Digital Cinema Camera concept, the main issue is keeping the MSRP low enough for users to be able to get one that would be interested, the sensor is only part of the system cost.

 

I plan on shooting some additional tests, I have been making some skate board footage at up to 220fps, that's processing now and I'll edit it together as I have time. My de-Bayer program is getting improved based on the results from these test footage, just shooting test charts is not as useful as using the actual lenses and lighting conditions that will be there when actual movies are being shoot, so this S1 video was processed in the new v0.09 version of DANCINEC.EXE for Ubuntu Linux called dancineu , I'm using Ubuntu Linux on the render computers to reduce cost of setting up many render computers to process the many frames, about 150000 or more, needed to make a feature film using CinemaDNG shooting cameras, Ubuntu has drivers for the hardware and can get more over the internet and is a free OS that is stable and works with large harddrives so you can use 2TB render disks. If you have any questions about my free de-Bayer program or want to see some uncompressed frames you know where to contact me.

 

http://vimeo.com/user1753849/videos

Edited August 23, 2013 by Dan Hudgins

[Jeremy Cavanagh]

Nice looking video.

[Dan Hudgins]

Thanks, It looks better in the uncompressed version with less de-noise, you see more of that clasic "Angenieux glow" to the results, in particular shooting at T/4.0, that zoom lens has a high lp/mm core with some blue-violet halo, I may try adding a skylight filter to cut the UV on later tests to see if that helps...

 

As you see in Part 3 of that S1 video the KineRAW-S8p has adjustments for centering the mount using the four set screws around the camera's mount ring part, the flange to focal ring can screw in and out using the locking ring to set the back-focus. I tried to get the flange to focal set right using the TV tower about two miles from my place and set the lens to 6mm, I then zoomed in and out and adjusted the centering so that the image on the viewfinder held center on the guide line cross displayed on the viewfinder. I may have had the leveling of the mount to the sensor off a few microns, it might be possable to get more uniform resolution if I rotated the cameras mount ring until the right and left sides of the image were in equal focus, its a bit hard to see that on the camera's finder even with the 200% zoom active (1:2 pixel display of 640 wide sensor area to 1280 HDMI output, in part because the 7" monitor I am using is 800x480). To get best alingnment of the mount, one needs to shoot a chart to the CinemaDNG frames, then do full processing so that you can check if the anti-OLPF sharpen is uniform ver the four conrers, that can take some time to do but worth it for making a feature because of the large screen it would be viewed on, it should be possable to get the lens aligned to better than a micron if one fiddles with the adjustments for a while, maybe...

 

This prototype camera has three lens mount rings that screw into the cameras ring that floats on the four set screws (the two large head screws lock the cameras mount ring since it rotates so you can get the lens markings on the top or side so you can read them) the three mounts are C-mount for Super8 and R16 lenses as well as 1/2" and 2/3" mega-pixel lenses or a PL or M42 etc. to C-mount adapter, CS-mount for 1/3" video lenses which just about cover 2592x1104 resolution sometimes, and D-mount for regular 8mm movie camera lenses, which may work with 2048x1080 and smaller pixel resolutions. 1/2" lenses cover more than Super8 lenses so there is less of a soft corners issue, but as I mentioned the production S8 camera may have a faster sensor with slightly smaller pixels so may fit the Super8 lenses better, maybe.