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Stephen Williams

Ì just bought an Epic M

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Ah.

 

Well, here's the thing.

Unlike the case of a 3-chip camera, or one like the Genesis with RGB filter stripes, all of the pixels you see are 100% synthesized, by a complex computer program.

 

There is no straightforward "algorithm" for doing this; there is a basic De-Bayer routine which even I could write, and an enormous number of "fiddle-factor/massage" routines which work out the "best guess" processing for as many situations as the programming team can imagine, or get told about. (Much the same thing applies to MPEG and JPEG codecs).

 

While you would like/expect this to be completely scalable, so you could do the exact same processing regardless of the number of pixels windowed, (as you can with JPEG/MPEG) that would enormously complicate the software.

 

Bottom line, I suspect the de-Bayer algorithm has more-or-less "hard-wired" 5K and 4K versions, and they haven't put as much work into the 4K version, because in the real world there is not that much advantage in using it.

 

This would explain their occasional claims to the effect that "Build XXX" can now extract dramatically improved picture quality even from orignial RED One footage from years ago. Simply a case of successive refinement.

 

If they had unlimited programming resources, (as was available for international standards like JPEG and MPEG) they probably would have had an infinitely scalable system where you could select just about any number of pixels to suit your speed/storage constraints.

 

Since the software is not open-source, and the Epic is built to a price, I can't see that happening anytime soon.

 

I always thought 5k had 60% more resolution than 4k, my only surprise was how noticeable the difference was at HD.

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I always thought 5k had 60% more resolution than 4k, my only surprise was how noticeable the difference was at HD.

60%?

Is that RealResolution, or RedResolution? (RedResolution = RealResolution squared :rolleyes:)

If the De-Bayer software was fully scalable then there would only be an increase of about 20% RealResolution (or about 50% RedResolution).

Maybe the problem is that re-processed RED One images might then wind up looking identical to 5K Epic images once they have been converted down to 1080p....

Just sayin' :P

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Keith... you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. Sorry. Forget the K's... Stephen has said that he sees a big difference. Apparently he is happy with his EPIC. And then you go into some random rant. He owns a camera and you don't. Easy to understand. His opinion matters and yours doesn't.

 

From the time you became James Murdoch and posted a bunch of crap until now... you have no credibility whatsoever. I had to hire security at IBC because of your PM's.

 

RED has been working 24/7 trying to deliver solutions to cinematographers. You have done nothing whatsoever.

 

RED is shooting the biggest budget features of 2011. You are taking pot-shots. How does that make you feel?

 

You were banned from reduser because you are disrupted. Nothing else.

 

Find something to do besides attempting clever responses that have no real meaning.

 

Our sweat goes into trying to make a difference. You sit at your keyboard with your little mouse...

 

Jim

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Keith... you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

 

Hey, welcome back Jim....

 

It looks like you've finally doing the job you were designed to do. I've never actually seen the results, but if Stephen says it's great, then I'll take his word for it.

 

Now, why don't you read the thread more closely?

Stephen is puzzled as to why going from 4K to 5K makes such an enormous difference when the output is only 1080p.

I've suggested a possible explanation, based on my past experience and technical knowledge.

If you want to correct me, well do so. Otherwise, you're not displaying yourself in a very good light.

 

I never said there was anything wrong with the images.

Any perceived criticisms I may have made could equally be directed to the Alexa.

 

 

Forget the K's...

 

 

I've been having that same stupid argument for close on 30 years.

Yes! Shoot a test chart and look! Our :D camera resolves 500 lines!

Yeah, at about 30dB down...

Here's the thing.

Now whack on an electronic filter that brick-walls it back to about 4MHz (~360 lines)

Sure enough, the last couple of sets of lines disappear from the test chart.

Now, point the camera at an ordinary scene. Switch your filter in out. What difference do you see? Absolutely bugger-all!

That piss-assed little bit of resolution that you squeeze out of it is ONLY visible on a test chart.

Yeah. Forget the K's.

I believe I've made that same point quite a few times here and elsewhere.

 

 

Stephen has said that he sees a big difference.

Please read it again. He says he sees a big difference **between 4K windowed and 5K, converted to 1080p**

He sees a bigger difference than can be accounted for by the difference in source resolution. If you have a better explanation than mine, by all means lets hear it.

 

He owns a camera and you don't...

 

So? At the rate things are going, in five years time they'll selling cameras better than the Epic for $99 in the Surprise Buys bin at Aldi. I can wait, and Aldi don't care about my attitude :lol:

 

RED is shooting the biggest budget features of 2011

Well, it's mostly people hiring RED cameras from Panavision who are doing that, but yes you have made inroads, Well done!

 

You were banned from reduser because you are disrupted. Nothing else.

I still have a copy of my last post. I really can't see what was so "disrupted" about it.

I only went on there for a joke anyway. I created an account and immediately made a screen grab, thinking I'd surely get banned instantly. I really don't understand how I lasted for 44 posts. The strain of playing nice was affecting my health. Glad that's over.

 

Easy to understand. His opinion matters and yours doesn't.

OK. Have it your way. If my opinion is so worthless why do you even bother responding? Are you afraid somebody might believe what I say? Like say, Arri for example?

 

I had to hire security at IBC because of your PM's.

 

I really wish I had some idea what the f*ck you're talking about.

WHAT PM's? Show me. If you're really so convinced I'm the person who sent you threatening emails, well it can't really hurt to give me a copy can it?

Would you like a copy of some of the crap I've received on your "behalf"?

But let's get this straight: You're worth what? $1 billion at the time, but you don't feel it's necessary to hire any security until you receive a threatening email. OK, whatever floats your boat.

 

RED has been working 24/7 trying to deliver solutions to cinematographers. You have done nothing whatsoever.

I suppose. Apart from pissing you off enough so that you went back and did the job peoperly maybe. But God looks after me in the strangest ways. :D

 

Our sweat goes into trying to make a difference. You sit at your keyboard with your little mouse...

Jim

What's with this fixation you have with the size of my mouse?

It's just a standard Microsoft wireless job that was bundled with a Microsoft Wireless keyboard, I got for half price in a sale. Works great.

Do you think my opinions would carry more weight if I bought a bigger one?

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The trailer for US version of the girl with the dragon tattoo looks impressive and certainly red should be given allot of credit for building a much more refined second generation camera. I have used the R-1 MX and it is a bit of an esoteric beast (the beast that ate through batteries) and Epic looks light years ahead. At the end of the day it is a camera and if it works then more power to it (or less power consumes for an extra K) so what's to be mad about?

 

There are now a number of big chip color mask cameras and we could spend days debating the relative merits and foibles of each of them. The form factor is what people are using and it seems like a few things have shaken out of this. Things like more pixels makes nice with Nyquist there are tricks to getting more DR out of the sensor like a second read (Red) or a up-down set of amps on the tap (arri) all of these systems are basically playing on the same field. It is not like Sony is playing cricket in Dublin and Red and Arri are playing Baseball in Chicago they are all playing Baseball in Chicago so to debate the merits of one construction of this form factor you have to consider the other ways it has been implemented by other companies.

 

 

-Rob-

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I once started a thread titled 'I Hate Red.' Incendiary, I know. I got criticism for it and much of it was justified. An opinion I continue to stand by is the vitriol that some of the Red camp direct towards others with a differing or contrary view to their own. Jim Jannard's heated response to Keith is out of order. From what I have read of Keith's posts, what criticism there is present is light-hearted, informed and not spiteful. I cannot say the same for Jim's response.

 

"His opinion matters and yours doesn't." - Jim

 

Because Keith does not own a Red camera means he cannot make observations and use knowledge he has? Does the opinion of an ASC, BSC, CSC, ACS or ICG member mean nothing if they do not own a Red camera?

 

Red and its products, especially the Epic, hold promise of greatness; I can't wait to see 'Prometheus'. Don't tarnish your reputation with venom. Make the best camera you can and rise above your critics, listen to what they have to say. Criticism can be constructive; something I have learned on this very forum over several years. Hold your restraint better than I once did in an old thread.

 

Please observe that I wrote 'some of the Red camp', I won't make a sweeping statement.

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IBecause Keith does not own a Red camera means he cannot make observations and use knowledge he has? Does the opinion of an ASC, BSC, CSC, ACS or ICG member mean nothing if they do not own a Red camera?

 

Damn, I wish I'd thought of that :D

Yeah, David Mullen doesn't own a Red either, so clearly his opinion isn't worth squat :P

 

Reminds me of the scene in Amelie where "in her world" there would be prompters hidden everywhere who would supply the withering riposte that you normally only think of the next day :D

 

That's almost as good as the one where she's sitting on the roof as a chld, listening to a Soccer match on a portable radio, and pulling her nasty neighbour's TV antenna plug out every time his team is about to score a goal :rolleyes:

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My heated and emotional response to Keith is based on a lot of bad history. I was forced to hire security at IBC for the 1st time in my life due to Keith's threats when he posed, posted and PM'd as James Murdoch.

 

David Mullen is a trained professional. David has used RED, including EPIC, on a feature film called "Big Sur". Stephen is now an owner of an EPIC. Neither is a RED fanboy. They both post what is real. Their posts are valid.

 

Keith's agenda is only to be disruptive. Since the beginning. Maybe it started when he was fired from Panavision. I don't know. Whatever the reason... I don't really care.

 

We have worked hard to build a camera that can be used on any job. And apparently it is worthy of being used on the top features as well as Indie productions.

 

It is frustrating to have someone that doesn't direct, shoot or in any way have anything to do with any project throw out barbs against RED without regards to the hard work we have done or the influence we have had to change the industry.

 

I'll stop posting here (again). But before I do... I'd encourage the viewers here to listen to Stephen and David. They have hands on knowledge of RED. Keith does not. David and Stephen have no agenda. Keith apparently does.

 

I admit that Keith brings out the worst in me. So he wins. He has pushed my buttons to the point where I do not post in a rational way. This started in 2006. Way to go Keith (James Murdoch). The industry is better off because you post. Or not.

 

Jim

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I ask you to reconsider leaving this forum. I don't know the full history of the spat between Keith and yourself but it shouldn't cloud your vision to see that this forum can be informative, resourceful and supportive. Yes, there can be pissing matches but the same is true of any message board. When push comes to shove, I believe there is an ignore button, though I haven't used it personally.

 

Members of the ASC continue to post here to share their expertise with others. You say David and Stephen's posts are valid and real; please follow your own words. When a person who once posted 'I Hate Red' is asking you to stay on Cinematography.com to hear your contribution that has to mean something.

 

Does everybody remember Robert Mitchum in 'Night of the Hunter'? Across his knuckles read the words 'Love' and 'Hate'. The members of this forum should have the words 'Don't' and 'Quit' on theirs.

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Children, please!

 

One of the best reasons not to use Red in my view is because the people who run the company do this on internet forums! I don't want anything in which I'm involved dependent on the good humour of people who behave that way!

 

It's insane!

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I think it is kind of too bad that this forum is (I guess) the defacto anti Red-user. This thread started with Stephen saying he got an Epic and what his observations were about his piece of gear.

 

Jim can say that the Epic cures cancer makes your cock bigger and has a pheromone secretion unit that makes ladies want to gang up on you in a cheap hotel room. I would take that with the same grain of salt as when Howard Stringer said the HDV tape makes perfect pictures and will last thousands of years. I am all for calling bullshit where it needs to be called and I also understand that Jim has a more personal stake in his company and product than a CEO of a mega corporation like Panasonic or Sony. All of that human interpersonal crap aside, what about the f**king camera?

 

As I said if you are going to debate the merits of the Epic or Red-One I think intellectually you have to debate the merits of all of the other similar form factor systems which occupy the same space in the D-Cine camera market. The Epic and the alexa and the upcoming F65 all have similar forms what do each of these do and do differently? I was psyched the first time I used a Red-One because I was curious about the camera and then after using it I could separate the noise about it from the actual camera and how it works.

 

So Stephen have you shot any jobs with that piece yet and how did that go? What about taking it outside and pointing it at bright objects? I am always curious about that with Digital cameras.

 

-Rob-

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So Stephen have you shot any jobs with that piece yet and how did that go? What about taking it outside and pointing it at bright objects? I am always curious about that with Digital cameras.

 

-Rob-

 

Hi Rob,

 

I bought the camera a couple of weeks ago, I had not told any of my clients that I was getting one,as I wanted to test it first. I will be shooting with it at least one job in October. I still shoot a fair amount of 35mm Film, Alexa and other formats which won't change. I don't want to be a DP who gets booked because he has a certain camera. I have already turned down a couple of offers from low ball producers. I would rather the production rents a 7D than give them the Epic for nothing.

 

Stephen

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I totally agree I shoot allot of film both for cinema projects of mine and commercially I part own a lab which we recently moved so that is dedication for you...Photomec film processors are heavy.

 

I am curious about the new gear and especially the higher end stuff that can make acceptable images for cinema.

 

I recently shot an industrial on the F3 and while it was a fine choice and a big upgrade from a 5D (and realistically I don't think we could have shot what we did on the budget we had in the timeframe allotted with a dslr) I did some tests with it and found it to clip hard outdoors pretty quickly. Under the controlled interview lighting and recording to Pro-res on a Ki-Pro it worked really well and I was able to get the footage to look really good after a pass in Resolve. I shot an outdoor car-show with the F3/Ki-Pro as a test and what a huge drag that was compared to an Aaton 16mm like I would usually do. Terrible untrustworthy finder and lcd and a stupid clunky box on a rope in a backpack does not make you work fast.

 

I also did a few days with a R-1 MX in the same time period and found it's highlight handling to be easier than the F3 but the power consumption and bootup time definitely slows you down too. The MX sensor was definitely a boost in DR over the original. It seems like from your posts that the Epic is a quicker camera to work with and that is one of the things I really like about film cameras the fast reaction times.

 

How do you feel about the look of the color from it? Do you grade your own stuff with something like Resolve or Red's app?

 

-Rob-

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You must now expect to be hired as DoP because you have a Epic , cant be many in that country ? . Must say didnt expect you buy one. John.

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And of course the idea of "giving away" time on a expensive D-Cine camera is silly obviously the Epic kitted with accessories and glass needs to be priced out relative to it's worth and rental market life which I am sure is hard to judge with all of the other D-Cine systems out there now and arriving in the short future. Any insight on the decision to get it? I like the rental house model especially for Digital kit but I am close to Boston and NYC so it is definitely easier to get my hands on rental kit. I suppose having the only one around can have advantages?

 

-Rob-

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How do you feel about the look of the color from it? Do you grade your own stuff with something like Resolve or Red's app?

 

-Rob-

 

I am looking at the various post houses, as I don't wan't to become a 'do it all' type.

However the images in Redcine look fine without much tweaking.

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You must now expect to be hired as DoP because you have a Epic , cant be many in that country ? . Must say didnt expect you buy one. John.

 

I expect 50 Epics by the end of the year in Switzerland, most of which will never get used, it's the land of rich fathers. Very ferw of the R1's got upgraded to MX, which was an issue as I would specify MX & get an M.

 

I am in talks with an Agency who claim they will give me 50 days shooting next year if I have an Epic, they want Stills & motion from the same shoot. They tried using a 5D, but it did not work out. Historically I have just shot 35mm for them.

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Wow that sounds like a good deal for Jim... and you if you are the only guy in the country who actually knows how to use it...

 

-Rob-

 

I think there is the highest no of Red's per capita, anywhere in the world. To put it in perspective there were probably 8 Digi Beta Camcorders which most of the higher budget video work was done between 1998-2006.

There are probably 4 professional camera assistants in Zurich the biggest City, about the same no of Gaffers & 25 swing whatever else is going!

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Quick, everyone. Move to Switzerland.

 

But I have the feeling their immigration policy may just possibly be the strictest in the world.

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Quick, everyone. Move to Switzerland.

 

But I have the feeling their immigration policy may just possibly be the strictest in the world.

 

It's easy now due to agreements with the EU, however there is very little work which is why there are so few crew. Zurich is the 2nd most expensive city in the world to live in. With a population of 7 million everything needs to be in 3 languages so the budget for 'picture' is very low. It's never been an issue that I don't speak any of the local languages as I tend to work on international jobs.

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Maybe it started when he was fired from Panavision.

I wasn't "fired from Panavision". God knows, I tried hard enough, but I was forced to wait until Feb 1 2009 to resign so that I wouldn't lose certain financial incentives.

???? Anyway, if I was so pissed off with Panavision I'd surely be the #1 Red Fanboy wouldn't I?

 

It is frustrating to have someone that doesn't direct, shoot or in any way have anything to do with any project throw out barbs against RED without regards to the hard work we have done or the influence we have had to change the industry.

 

Probably at least as frustrating as wading through the obstreperous spoutings of 30,000 - 40,000 fanboys whose production experience clearly starts and stops at a visit to Warners Movie World backlot, or the "Secial Features" section of their favourite DVD, trying to find useful information. (See "What is the RED One?" above).

 

I'll stop posting here (again). But before I do... I'd encourage the viewers here to listen to Stephen and David. They have hands on knowledge of RED. Keith does not. David and Stephen have no agenda. Keith apparently does.

Stephen has a question. I suggest a possible technical explanation that could apply to any camera. What agends is that exactly?

People don't HAVE to read my posts. At least I get a laugh occasionally.

 

I admit that Keith brings out the worst in me. So he wins. He has pushed my buttons to the point where I do not post in a rational way.

WHAT do I win exactly?

Look, Jim, like it or not, Industry people do read these forums. They read what I write, and they read what you write. You're setting yourself up for the ultimate VHS vs Betamax redux: You've finally made the camera that ticks all the boxes and is miles ahead of anything else there, but nobody wants to use it because they Don't. Like. Your. Attitude. This is frickin' Hollywood; commonsense often has to be checked in at the door and re-claimed when you leave. I know at least that much :P

 

This started in 2006. Way to go Keith (James Murdoch). The industry is better off because you post. Or not.

There you go again with "James" Murdoch. "Jimmy" is a Scottish nickname, like "Pal" or "Buddy". (Ask Graeme Nattress or John Galt if don't believe me). In an earlier thread you claimed that "James and Mary Murdoch" lived at my address. Maria is my 90 year old Mother-in-law with an unpronouncable surname. Congratulations on the excellence of your detectives' work.

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I think there is the highest no of Red's per capita, anywhere in the world. To put it in perspective there were probably 8 Digi Beta Camcorders which most of the higher budget video work was done between 1998-2006.

There are probably 4 professional camera assistants in Zurich the biggest City, about the same no of Gaffers & 25 swing whatever else is going!

I guess thay had to do something after the arse fell out of the watch market, and the EU made them release details of Swiss Bank Accounts :rolleyes:

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I guess thay had to do something after the arse fell out of the watch market, and the EU made them release details of Swiss Bank Accounts :rolleyes:

 

Watches with a price tag over $1,000,000 are in huge demand, waiting lists exceed 1 year. It's business as usual!

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Lucky you! Definitely a great camera to shoot around anything, if i was rich enough i'd get one to start to shoot around.. almost anything

 

18 stops HDRx thats insane

 

Even the new F65 claims to have 14 stops dynamic range. But apparently it appears to have a great film-look. Wouldn't know, never seen the footage.

 

BTW i am surprised to read the second page of this thread

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