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Cesar Rubio

In search of the "perfect" 3-D Video Camera system...

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A friend and a worldwide well respected Stereographer in the 3-D business asked me recently about my ideas for a 3-D camera...so I've been thinking for days in the issue. Actually this is going to be my reply to him, since I don't like to keep “secrets” in most of what I think that can be of a general public benefit and advantage for the field and my passion that is 3-D. After all these are my personal opinions and ideas on the matter.

 

 

He started with this: “It does make me think about an idea (for a 3-D camera) I have had for some time now, built up over all the consultations I have done for 3-D film productions...”

 

So his ideas are very valid and respected from many years of experience in the field of 3-D.

 

Regarding the beamsplitter rigs that are in widespread use today, he mentioned: “The beamsplitter rig systems out there right now are simply not practical for real world mass 3-D film and especially television production”

 

He added: “What is missing right now in the 3-D camera realm is an array that covers multiple IAs. Cameras such as the Phantom 65-Z3D are very close to a real-world solution, but they still lack multiple IAs”

 

I agree with him about the use of heavy and big beamsplitter rigs...but we like it or not, beamsplitter rigs are a must for macro stereo work, so an “ideal” 3-D camera must have this into an account. But small please! (continue reading below for more about this issue)

 

The Phantom 65-Z3D camera PDF brochure under “The Benefits” of their camera, says this:

 

www.abelcine.com/articles/images/pdf/phantom_65-z3d.pdf

 

 

“By utilizing a single sensor, the P65-Z3D is like a pair of parallel cameras, in such hat, there is no toeing-in...The images produced by the system’s parallel capture are clean and free of optical distortion, from either beamsplitter artifacts or image keystoning. a single housing to capture stereo images on a single sensor...What’s more, the Phantom 65 used in this configuration can offer frame rates over 300fps at 1920x1080 resolution.”

 

I like all of those benefits. But, since the camera has a 4K “645” medium format sensor, the Stereo Base (SB) or Inter Axial (IA) at 1080p is something like 25mm. And since the sensor size is 51.20mm x 30.50mm is like having two S35mm sensors side by side (24mm horizontal)...for 1080p resolution I would prefer a 2/3” sensor size (10.56mm horizontal) for a deeper DOF:

 

 

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/2011/10/sensor-design-for-3-d-video-cameras.html

 

 

Also the 300fps in the Phantom is something great for producing super “cool” 3-D slow-mo.

 

With the price of a single day rent of the Phantom 65-Z2D camera ($10,000 USD) I can build a 3-D system with similar performance, and even better, with adjustable SB: (and note: the 65-Z3D uses a laptop for monitoring as well):

 

 

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/2011/10/p-margin-bottom-0_16.html

 

 

The Meduza 3-D camera offers adjustable SB or IA, but when you want to shoot macro stereo (tight close-ups) you can't since the sensors are attached to the camera and can't be used with a beamsplitter...(also I think you need an external recorder as well and a way to monitor the video streams)

 

http://www.meduzasales.com/

 

 

So my approach of using separate sensor “heads” like Machine Vision Camera (MVC's) offer, has the advantage here as well, since you can put the cameras in a (note) really SMALL beamsplitter rig to cover less than 30-65mm SB, more than that will make the rig bigger, and why would you want that if you can shoot side by side with MVC's?

 

In a traditional 3-D camcorder approach you have many drawbacks as well:

 

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/2011/10/3-d-camcorders.html

 

 

So what then?

 

I think that my MVC's 3-D approach has many advantages, we only need to improve camera heads resolution for 3-D Cinema and IMAX 3-D resolutions: (3K and 9K respectively)

 

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2011-10-16T18%3A54%3A00-07%3A00&max-results=10

 

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/2011/10/imax-resolution.html

 

There are already sensor companies like CMOSIS that are working in super fast (300fps) 4K sensors for the MVC's market:

 

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2010/11/cmosis-and-towerjazz-announce.html

 

 

The other possible improvement is to make dual Uncompressed Raw recorders smaller, like the Modula Baby Camera is working to achieve with their system: (supposedly works with all HD-SDI recorder system, like Nanoflash, hyer shuttle, Ki pro , Stwo, Codex etc.)

 

 

http://easylooksystem.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69&Itemid=76

 

 

The Laptop display approach, I like for stereo work since you can have both video streams side by side to check for possible cameras misalignment, edge violations etc, and even check the 3-D effect with cheaper viewers like these: ( I use the Pokescope)

 

 

http://www.berezin.com/3d/viewers1.htm

 

The last issue that my friend mentions is the use of zoom lenses for live 3-D TV use...I think we need a system that can change the SB while zooming in and out according to the 1/30th rule:

 

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/2011/10/stereo-3-d-rules.html

 

 

What else?

 

Do you have better ideas to solution such challenges when recording 3-D video?

 

Please let me know, with all our ideas together we might be able to produce the “perfect” 3-D video camera...if such thing can exist in an imperfect world!

 

 

Thanks,

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

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Somebody asked me if I was aware of the SinaCam cameras:

 

http://www.sinacam.eu/

 

Yes I was, but their approach is almost the same as mine with MVC's.

 

The 2/3” 1080/60p Kodak sensor only offers like ISO 250 at 0dB, and is a challenge to get 60 fps without “frame split” problems with horizontal camera movements or subjects moving horizontally inside the frame. So I'd love to see the SinaCam's 1080/60p footage!

 

That's in part why I dropped the AVT GX-1910c 3-D camera project 20 months ago, also I did not like the noise in the shadows that the Kodak 2/3 sensor produces...even at 0db!

 

The “older” 1” Kodak sensor (like the AVT Pike F-210c camera has) was much better in that regard, producing cleaner images at 0dB, probably because it has 7.7 um (microns) pixels vs 5.5 um of the 2/3”...That is 1.8 times bigger!

 

Oh boy, and how can they claim this about a 1080p Bayer sensor against 1080p 3 sensors resolution???!!!:

 

http://svgeurope.org/2011/10/18/zdf-heads-into-the-3d-age-with-die-huberbuam/

 

“The resolution is higher than with all available 2/3-inch 3-chip HD cameras”

 

Really? ;-)

 

They also say this:

 

“and the sensor is more photosensitive than other 2/3-inch CMOS cameras”

 

Not with the new CMOSIS 2K sensor that offers ISO/ASA 640 at 0dB!

 

http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv2000

 

And of course that I am aware of the SI-2K minis and Cunima's and Iconix and...

 

But all of those cameras use sensors that can only do 1080p/2K-30 fps max, and I need 1080p/2k-60 fps for a true 720/60p 3-D delivery!

 

I am not sure why the Cunima 2 camera cannot do 60 fps since the Altasens sensor it uses is capable of that?: or perhaps it uses the old sensor p4562 version that the SI-2K mini use as well...

 

http://www.altasens.com/index.php/products/1080p/p4562-3t

 

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

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The sensor in the SI-2K mini is alright...apparently it can do 1080/60p.

 

The SI-1920HD camera can do that (and it was the predecessor to the SI-2K mini)

 

http://www.siliconimaging.com/index1.htm

 

The problem with the SI-2K mini is with the single Gig-e interface, it can only do 1080/30p.

 

For 1080/60p it would need double Gig-e like the AVT-Prosilica GX line of cameras.

 

But I am intrigued by the Cunima, why it cannot do 1080/60p if it has the same sensor as the SI-1920HD cam?

 

I was reading the specs of the HD-SDI interface, and (supposedly at least in theory) is capable of 1080/60p bandwidth: (with Raw-8 bit and 12 bit)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMPTE_292M

 

But probably in a real work environment the 1080/60p Raw-12 bit bandwidth needs 3G-SDI...

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

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Well, I can't find much info on the web about the Lumiere camera...(other than the introduction to market price of the 2-D version cam)

 

I've just sent an e-mail to ViewPLUS requesting some info:

 

The 3 most important things that I want to know of the camera are these:

 

1- What sensor size the camera uses

 

2- What is the "base" ISO/ASA at 0dB?

 

3- If it's possible to record from two camera heads into the recording PC? (at 3.5K/60p)

 

 

I don't know, but if the answers are within my expectations, I think I have found my favorite 3-D Cinema camera system!

 

I prefer two separate Lumiere 4K heads to be able to change stereo base (or interaxial) distances:

 

http://www.viewplus.co.jp/product/camera/lumiere_en.html

 

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

 

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

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OMG!

 

I have “inside” information about a super small 4K up to 124 fps camera head, that is coming to the market in 1Q 2012!

 

And the best of all, is that it will be able to record to small form factor Uncompressed Raw recorders!

 

And by the track record of that company, even though I don't have pricing of it yet, I would imagine that it will be in the $18K USD or less range. (but I could be wrong in that assumption)

 

Can't say more info at this time though...sorry, I wish I could.

 

Times are getting really interesting in the 3-D Cameras field!

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

 

 

Edited by Cesar Rubio

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Hi,

I'm André Salvagnac, one of sinaCAM's engineers.

 

The 2/3” 1080/60p Kodak sensor only offers like ISO 250 at 0dB, and is a challenge to get 60 fps without “frame split” problems with horizontal camera movements or subjects moving horizontally inside the frame. So I'd love to see the SinaCam's 1080/60p footage!

 

We can not reproduce the frame split problems during movement you describe, a full frame takes 15ms to read out on sinaCAM, independent of the chosen framerate.

This means that operating sinaCAM at 1080/60p works fine. Unfortunately we do not currently have 60p recording equipment, but you can ask either our American distributor ZGC our our German one PURE4C to arrange a test recording.

 

... also I did not like the noise in the shadows that the Kodak 2/3 sensor produces...even at 0db!

 

The “older” 1” Kodak sensor (like the AVT Pike F-210c camera has) was much better in that regard, producing cleaner images at 0dB, probably because it has 7.7 um (microns) pixels vs 5.5 um of the 2/3”...That is 1.8 times bigger!

 

When we started developing sinaCAM (ca. 1 year ago) we chose the Kodak 2/3" sensor, because it proved to have the best signal/noise-ratio for the same lighting of all 2/3" sensors at that time.

While it may be true that the 1" produces slightly cleaner images, the differences should be in a scale invisible to the human eye.

May I ask you in which camera the Kodak 2/3" was used, when you saw noise in the shadows? Because in our experience - when using sinaCAM, at 0db there is no visible noise at all.

I recommend watching the ZDF Huberbuam Documentary for an impression of the dynamic range and signal/noise-ratio of sinaCAM with the Kodak 2/3" sensor. We also have

taken with Rec. 709, Extended Range at an initial gain of 4(24dB).

 

Oh boy, and how can they claim this about a 1080p Bayer sensor against 1080p 3 sensors resolution???!!!

 

“The resolution is higher than with all available 2/3-inch 3-chip HD cameras”

 

3-chip cameras with the same sensor size produce much lower resolution images, the Sony 1500 is the best 3-chip camera we know in this regard, Sony themselves claim an optical resolution of 1000 lines horizontal when using their best lenses.

 

 

They also say this:

“and the sensor is more photosensitive than other 2/3-inch CMOS cameras”

Not with the new CMOSIS 2K sensor that offers ISO/ASA 640 at 0dB!

http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv2000

 

The sensor looks interesting but we cannot really make any statements about it because we have not seen it in use.

 

Thank you for your interest, best regards,

 

André Salvagnac

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Hi,

I'm André Salvagnac, one of sinaCAM's engineers.

 

Hi Andre, first off, welcome to Cinematography.com!

 

It's great to have camera engineers discussing their products in public forums...that takes some B...:lol:

 

 

 

We can not reproduce the frame split problems during movement you describe

 

I don't know, the other day I was watching a little bit of the video you posted (other than the Youtube video, but I can't remember at the moment where it is posted) and I kind of saw that frame split issue in fast movement scenes, but it could have been the extreme video compression for web streaming...(or my internet connection speed)

 

 

 

When we started developing sinaCAM (ca. 1 year ago) we chose the Kodak 2/3" sensor, because it proved to have the best signal/noise-ratio for the same lighting of all 2/3" sensors at that time.

While it may be true that the 1" produces slightly cleaner images, the differences should be in a scale invisible to the human eye.

May I ask you in which camera the Kodak 2/3" was used, when you saw noise in the shadows? Because in our experience - when using sinaCAM, at 0db there is no visible noise at all.

 

I used the Prosilica GE-1910c camera and here you can see a couple of video grabs images taken with the cam:

 

Kodak 2/3" CCD Images

 

Unfortunately the images are at 1/4 resolution and you cannot see the noise in the background shadow areas. I don't have the full rez images at the moment, but if I can get them later, I will re-post that info here again.

 

For comparison purposes, you can see the images produced with a Kodak 1" CCD taken with the AVT Pike F-210c camera, here:

 

Kodak 1" CCD Images

 

The only improvement I saw on the 2/3" over the 1" CCD is a slightly more sensitivity (ISO/ASA 250 on the 2/3" vs ISO/ASA 160 on the 1") and a better smear handling on the 2/3".

 

 

 

3-chip cameras with the same sensor size produce much lower resolution images, the Sony 1500 is the best 3-chip camera we know in this regard, Sony themselves claim an optical resolution of 1000 lines horizontal when using their best lenses.

 

Well, I am not very interested in what camera manufacturers claim about optical resolutions, what I care more is how that videos and images look at the "naked" eye. A 1080p Bayer sensor resolution I would rate it as a 720p resolution on a 3 sensor camera.

 

 

 

The sensor looks interesting but we cannot really make any statements about it because we have not seen it in use.

 

The Basler acA2000-340kc camera has the CMOSIS CMV2000 CMOS sensor and also the IO Industries Flare 2K cameras line. I hope to test the Basler camera soon, to review it and post images and video on the web.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your interest, best regards, André Salvagnac

 

No, thanks YOU Andre!

 

And it's great than more companies are introducing professional quality 3-D camera systems like yours, 5 years ago we did not have much to choose from...:wacko:

 

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

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These guys here are working in an interesting 3-D camera system, and its an OPEN SOURCE project if you are interested in participating with ideas or work. (Apertus 3D)

 

http://cinema.elphel...c.php?f=11&t=49

 

 

If you don't want to read the whole topic, and wants to "cut to the chase", go here to see pictures of the current 3-D set-up: (scroll to the bottom post)

 

http://cinema.elphel...&t=49&start=160

 

 

Here is a 3-D video made with the rig:

 

 

http://apertus.org/en/node/135

 

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

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The only improvement I saw on the 2/3" over the 1" CCD is....and a better smear handling on the 2/3".

 

 

Sorry, I meant better "Blooming Suppression"...smear is about he same in both sensors.

 

That's a drawback on CCD technology, CMOS don't show smear...but...well I don't have to explain you, since you already know the strengths and failings of both sensors approach.

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

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Ok regarding the Lumiere camera....

 

I only got one response from them indicating the sensor size 1.25"

 

That is something like 17.7mm wide.

 

To pack 4096 pxs across that size, the pixels size must be 4.3 microns

 

Not too bad, but I would prefer at least 5.5 um pixel size.

 

They never replied to my question of what was the ISO/ASA at 0dB, nor to a link to see a video made with the camera.

 

Somebody mentioned (in another forum) skew problems due to the CMOS rolling shutter with that cam being really bad...

 

And at around $100K USD per camera head, they need to get their "act together" if they want to compete in this market.

 

I am still with Alexa-M for 3-D Cinema productions....yes, even with the recent November 3rd announcements.

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

Edited by Cesar Rubio

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Here are other 3-D camera systems (when paired two cameras) that are good for 3-D HDTV productions (using a beamsplitter rig that is...)

 

Sony:

 

http://pro.sony.com/.../product-HDCP1/

 

 

Panasonic:

 

http://pro-av.panaso...1800/index.html

 

 

Ikegami:

 

http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/hdtv_camera_frame2.html

 

 

They would be perfect for 3-D Cinema as well, if they could do exact 48 or 60 frames per second. I think it's possible with a firmware upgrade...

 

1080p resolution, with 3 sensors camera capture is good enough for normal Cinema screens at around 35 feet wide.

 

And for 3-D distribution, that increases the perceived resolution for the dual projected images, you could potentially target 50 feet 3-D screens as well...

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

Edited by Cesar Rubio

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Ok, I forgot this....

 

While I would probably accept a certain degree of in-camera compression for 3-D HDTV productions (depending on the circumstances of each project, and budget), I would NOT accept any compression for 3-D Cinema capture. Hence I would record Uncompressed footage out of these 1080p 2/3" 3 sensors cameras.

 

For 3-D Cinema we need 48 or 60 progressive frames BTW...

 

Cesar Rubio

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

 

 

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Someone in another forum wrote this regarding my still preference of Alexa-M after Nov 3rd...

 

"I would agree, the most recent announcements from both Red & Canon are no threat to Arri's Alexa cameras. The Alexa has been proven on set and in post to have a familiar, simple straightforward workflow that's easy for experienced DPs and editors to pick up without jumping through hoops. Plus, you can get 4:4:4 out of an Alexa in 2k.

 

If you're on a smaller budget, the Sony F3 is probably the biggest bang for the buck in it's price range, and like the Alexa, the on set & post workflow is easy and doesn't require jumping through any hoops."

 

To which I replied:

 

-The Scarlet and the Canon C300 offerings are ok in the resolution department for 3-D Cinema as far as I am concerned...(I will write an article about "war resolutions" soon).

 

My only complain with both systems is the in-camera compression, Scarlet wins against the C300 in that regard though.

 

Me still preferring the Alexa-M is because you can record Uncompressed Raw (Arriraw). The 1080p 444 Arri workflow although good for HDTV productions, it just won't "cut the cake" in terms of resolution for Cinema.

 

The same for the Sony F3, 1080p Bayer capture is only good for a 720p finish. So capturing 1080/50-60p with such camera, will give you a good 720/50-60p output which is good for HDTV.

 

And I would definitely use the full 444 uncompressed output on the F3 to external recorders....

 

Cesar Rubio.

Wisconsin & L.A.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

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Ok ladies and gentlemen, here is my proposal for a 3-D Cinema camera system...I know, I know, it's NOT "perfect" either, but I think it's PRACTICAL for the time being...

 

The post is almost 7000 words, rather LOOOONG, but sometimes in order to find a "treasure" you have to DIG deep.

 

You have two choices to read it, in Blogspot or WordPress:

 

http://dna-rubio-3d....3-d-system.html

 

http://dnarubio3d.wo...reo-3-d-system/

 

Thanks,

 

Cesar Rubio.

Cambridge, Wisconsin USA.

http://dna-rubio-3d.blogspot.com/

http://dnarubio3d.wordpress.com/

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BRAND: Open

 

MODEL: D&A R-3D? (Dual camera heads + DVR)

 

SPECIFICATIONS:

 

 

Camera Heads:

 

-33mm wide

 

-Sensor:

 

-CCD or CMOS with Global Shutter

 

-Diagonal layout of photosites

 

-5.5um (microns) pixel size

 

-2/3" format size

 

-Resolution and Frame Rate: 4K/1-60p (4096 x 2160 1 to 60 fps). Optional 4K/96-360 fps to external recorder for slow-mo (depending on camera interface)

 

-Color Depth: 8 and 12 bit Bayer

 

-Sensitivity: ISO/ASA 640+ at 0dB

 

-Dynamic Range: 60 dB+

 

-Camera Interface: Camera Link (full), CoaxPress, Firewire 3200, USB-3, 3G-SDI, Fibre Channel or

 

Thunderbolt

 

 

Lenses:

 

-2/3" C-mount

 

-Resolving power: 5-10MP

 

-30-32 mm in diameter max.

 

-f1.4/f1.8-f16/22

 

-Manual Focus

 

-Focal Lengths: 8/8.5mm,16mm and 25mm

 

 

 

Digital Video Recorder: (DVR)

 

-Dimensions 6x3x2 (width,height,depth) (ideal target size)

 

-Display: Touchscreen 5×2.6 inches (if previous DVR size)

 

-Display Resolution: At least 1280 x 720 pxs, but 1080p/2K would be the ideal target

 

-Display modes, side by side, individual side with digital zoom focusing aid (maybe with auto-stereoscopic mode as well)

 

-Uncompressed Raw (8 and 12 bit Bayer recording mode)

 

 

 

Recording media:

 

-Dual Solid State Disks

 

-Stereo Audio Recording (with level control) input/output

 

 

 

DVR Software:

 

-Start-Stop Recording/Playback modes

 

-Raw display mode (Black & White), Color mode if the the CPU-GPU power is available, but is not necessary IMO.

 

-White Balance: Auto,3200K,5600K.

 

-Gamma: Custom (via color remapping)

 

-Gain Control: 0-18 dB

 

-Shutter Speed: 1/48th, 1/60th and Custom

 

-AOI/ROI (Area/Region of Interest) for custom resolution and aspect ratios

 

-Custom frame rates

 

-Color depth choices of 8 or 12 bit Bayer

 

-Time stamp frame (time code)

 

-Image Flip (when using Beam Splitters)

 

-Audio recording monitoring

 

-Full de-bayering/demosaicing adjustments/options in editing computer, with Uncompressed RGB (AVI or MOV) and other video compression codecs export (when available in computer)

 

 

 

CR.

 

It's the long term experience of problem solving that makes you successful! & what we do in life,echoes in eternity.

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Ok, this is the closets I could find to the recorder I want for a Vision Stereo 3-D system:

 

(DVR Express Mobile)

 

http://www.ioindustr...ts/systems.html

 

It can do dual 3K/48p Uncompressed Raw 8 bit recordings (to external SSD's)...is ALL what I need for 3-D Cinema!

 

Now, the still "missing link" are the cameras...next year there will be S35mm 4K MVC's available, I would "window" the sensors to get 3K resolution and a 4/3" format size (approximately).

 

Regarding the DVR Express Mobile, these are the specs:

 

Dimensions Width x Height x Depth: 12.4" x 9.7" x 4.2" (316 x 247 x 106 mm)

 

Weight: 6.2 lbs (2.8 kg)

 

And the scree resolution is only 800 x 600 pxs, so those numbers need to be improved yet.

 

Smaller size for the recorder, and more resolution for the screen....besides the price that needs to drop! (but that will only happen if enough demand is there...)

 

For the time being, the IO Industries DVR Core (Dual Base) costing 3 times less, and a laptop is a better choice:

 

http://www.ioindustr...ducts/core.html

 

CR.

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Some one contacted me off-line regarding my claim that 8 bit capture is all what you need for Cinema in another forum.

 

Since this might be of general interest too, I will include part of my reply to that person here as well:

 

“Regarding 8 bit capture, recording Uncompressed Raw and then debayering to Uncompressed RGB (24 bit) is all that you need. I have made comparison test between Uncompressed Raw/RGB 8/24, 12/36 and even 16/48 bit digital capture, and film scans (saved to Uncompressed TIFF) and found NO visible difference....only the larger files is what you will end up with.

 

When recording with compression, yes higher color bit depth has a huge and noticeable impact in final Image Quality, the less I would go using compression would be Compressed Raw 12 bit.”

 

-I forgot to mention to him the problem that someone mentioned regarding the Canon C300 color banding issue in another thread on the same forum..I already mentioned in that thread that in those circumstances (open Sky capture) higher bit depth capture/codec might be useful too...but even in those circumstances, recording Uncompressed Raw 8 bit, I never saw color banding either...

 

Thanks,

CR.

 

 

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Uncompressed Raw 8 vs 16 TEST:

 

I am not at home currently, and the only files I could find comparing Uncompressed Raw 8 vs 16 are these Tiff files. (note that even the 16 bit is double in size than the 8 bit)

 

You can download them here:

Raw-8:

 

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YR61JDTR

 

Raw-16:

 

 

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SRLH0Z96

 

 

Alternately I have uploaded them in Picasa, the 8 bit is a Jpeg file, while the 16 bit is PNG:

 

 

https://picasaweb.go...CNL19qDrxJ-f6QE

 

 

The files info say they were created in 2002, but it's wrong, I recorded them like 3 years ago or so...(don't remember exactly)

 

 

After my comparison tests (and to make sure) I contacted Norpix (creators of Streampix DVR software) and asked them if they could perform a similar test...they did it and their "verdict" was the same as mine. NO VISUAL DIFFERENCE in both.

 

 

Right now I don't have a camera with me to make a new comparison test, but it occurs to me that it would be even better if YOU can do your own tests...how?

 

Even though it would not be precisely "the same" it'd be interesting to perform and you might learn a thing or two in the process..

 

If you have a DSLR pro camera, you can take some Uncompressed Raw pictures (normally they will be 12 bit, but there are some cams that can do even more like 14 bit) Then open your files (I use Photoshop CS4 or Lightroom) and save them to Uncompressed TIFF 8 bit and 16 bit.

 

Re-open those two Tiff files again and compare them...do heavy color correction...do you see a visual difference in both?

 

 

CR.

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Some one made an interesting “experiment” (I am glad that I am not the only “crazy” here...:-))

 

Here are the pics:

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/117102957642252969487/CurveAdjustments?authkey=Gv1sRgCLPcxa3wyJvrfw

 

He made this comment:

 

“Notice the lack of many values of gray in the 8 bit version?

 

The 8 bit file contains only 74 "shades"(a lot missing in the shadows), while the 16 bit has retained all 255.

 

I can see differences in the resulting tifs. They are subtle....but visible.”

 

And this was my response:

 

-Good Job “X”!

 

See how "experimenting" leads to great discoveries? :-)

 

But any how, I still prefer Uncompressed Raw 8 bit than Compressed Raw at higher bit depth...I need to make a comparison test about this sometime in the future. (I've already done it in the past, but I need to make another one with newer cameras, and make it public...)

 

I need to get the original Uncompressed Raw/RGB files to make a more accurate assessment of the situation.

 

Regardless of that, if you shoot properly exposed footage, you don't really NEED to do heavy editing like in this particular case...

 

CR.

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Hi:

 

I want to apologize if I offended someone with my search of the "perfect 3-D camera" that doesn't exist, and maybe it wont ever..what is "perfect" for me, might no be perfect for YOU...

 

Sometimes we concentrate too much in things that we forget the people who are behind them, the MAKERS. For the most part they put all their heart and effort and maybe years of HARD work to make them possible...and if some one comes and "kill it" in just 30 seconds is NOT very funny is it?

 

What I think WE ALL need is a school for Stereo 3-D, so we can figure this thing out ALL together...Camera makers SHOULD hire a few good experienced Stereographers when designing cameras...if they skip in that very IMPORTANT matter, then how can they make a good product of a complicated subject they don't know well?

 

I've been in "3-D concentration camp" for almost a month now, and doing a LOT of thinking in the matter, I have reviewed my own work and the work of others as well....

 

And leaving "sides" aside...I think I now better what I like now. PLEASE DON'T take it as an offense if I don't mention your product...after all they are PERSONAL preferences not BIG deal right?

 

I like the SinaCAM for 3-D TV productions for a faster workflow and size of the cameras, and the Indie POV for 3-D Cinema...like its own name reflects is intended for Indie 3-D producers, I like that system very much. The CinemaDNG Uncompressed workflow is very promising...

 

http://www.indiecam.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=65

 

In the fixed lenses cameras, believe it or not I like the Fuji W3, with a 1/50th Rule for your nearest point you can record almost everything with the 35mm-105mm (FF35mm equivalent). From around 4 mts away...but obviously the f4 max aperture is not good for interiors nor that long distance in small places, but for exterior work and the beginner Sterographer is a good choice for practicing...

 

 

The Lumiere 3-D having a 65mm SB are good too..with the same distance limitations of course.

 

In the Beam splitter camp I like the CPG rig that they showed with two Alexa-M's and the Arri-Fuji zooms at IBC 2011...it looks very good...

 

There are others 3-D rigs that I like too, but I will leave it at that, at the end what IT MATTERS is the FINAL product not so much what tools you used...you can use MANY to achieve what YOU want.

 

My best wishes for 2012 for ALL. 3-D camera manufacturers and STEREOGRAPHERS

.

Cesar Rubio.

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