Jump to content

Genesis for "Superman Returns"


Guest Jim Murdoch

Recommended Posts

Guest Jim Murdoch

I've just heard from a guy in Sydney that it is pretty well definite that the Genesis will be used for all the principal photography on the WB feature Superman Returns.

 

However before you all get too excited, the only fly in the ointment is that the only reason I got to hear about this was that he was approached to help troubleshoot some problems they were having with a piece of ancilliary equipment (that's always worked a treat with their film cameras) and asked me if could shed any light on it!

 

Unfortunately Panvision have been so successful in keeping the thing such a deep dark secret, that neither of us felt we could be of much help and quietly demurred.

 

So, we await further developments, but from a safe distance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 98
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Premium Member

I spoke to a friend on friday who is a shake op in oz, he was under the impression that it is going to be HD. He had no idea whether it is going to be shot on the Genesis. This is not a conformation as until the footage starts rolling in who knows. But effects tests have been done in HD for Superman. Of course it is possible that they are shooting HD just for effects shots.

 

Keith

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've just heard from a guy in Sydney that it is pretty well definite that the Genesis will be used for all the principal photography on the  WB feature Superman Returns.

 

However before you all get too excited,  the only fly in the ointment is that the only reason I got to hear about this was that he was approached to help troubleshoot some problems they were having with a piece of ancilliary equipment (that's always worked a treat with their film cameras) and asked me if could shed any light on it!

 

Unfortunately Panvision have been so successful in keeping the thing such a deep dark secret, that neither of us felt we could be of much help and quietly demurred.

 

So, we await further developments, but from a safe distance.

 

Thanks Jim!

Yes it is very interesting news. A hard nosed studio going HD.

The ability to shoot 23.98 will mean that they can offline on the office NTSC Avid!

 

What was the ancillary piece of equipment that they asked you for help with?

 

Mike Brennan

Edited by mike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there any other "independent" films coming out earlier shot on the Panavision

 

The genesis is a little bit pricey for independents. They'll tell you that themselves. If you're shooting a studio sized movie with that much footage - the savings could be worth it. For the amount of footage most independents shoot, the cost of the camera verses the cost of film is almost a toss up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim Murdoch
What was the ancillary piece of equipment that they asked you for help with?

 

Mike Brennan

 

Bit of a can of worms actually. My friend builds 24 frame standards converters (ie PAL/NTSC to 650 line 24fps PAL for shooting TV screens on 24 frame film). Well, he used to.

 

His design produces 24.000 fps video, and requires that the film camera be sync-ed to it. There's no provision for doing the other way round (ie sync-ing the converter to the film camera), since the mechanically-generated shutter pulses have too much jitter. This has never been an issue before, because all the popular 16 and 35mm film cameras have sync boxes readily available.

 

But apparently not the Genesis! From what he's been told (and as usual, it was like pulling teeth:-) it either only runs at one speed: 23.976 fps, (ie the "film for NTSC" frame rate), or (more likely) that's the only speed the production company will allow it to run at.

 

 

There appears to be no sync box available, and in any case, that would make them run at 24.000fps. His converters have a "phasing" button which allows manual "nudging" of the framing bar off-screen, if people can't or won't use a synchroniser box but again that wouldn't be any use, because his converter runs at 24.000fps! Every 40 seconds the framing bar would make one complete pass of the image of the screen....

 

It may be possible to drive the converters from the Genesis's video output as they're designed to be "daisy chained" so you can have more than one synced-up screen in a shot, but to do that they require a 48Hz field sync pulse (basically "interlaced" 24 frame video). In normal use this is taken from the first converter in the chain.

 

He's currently trying to find out if the Genesis produces anything like that, but thus far the silence has been deafening! If it only produces 23.976fps "shutter" pulses it probably would be feasible to build an extra circuit board to generate the necessary 47.952Hz sync, but not unless somebody wants to pay for it, and on past experience, nobody will!

 

Trouble is, he doesn't own the converters, they're just something he built for a former employer; he no longer works in the film industry, and he's not overly fond of either Panavision or the cowboys responsible doing the 24 frame playback!

 

The moral of the story appears to be: NEVER give anybody your home phone number!

 

This may not be all that big a deal in the long run, but it does indicate that the Genesis is still just a TV camera at heart, despite all the propaganda.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim Murdoch
But effects tests have been done in HD for Superman. Of course it is possible that they are shooting HD just for effects shots.

 

Keith

That's what I would have expected too, but apparently this is not the case.

 

Virtually all of Star Wars II (and III) was shot on enclosed sound stages where there is 100% control of the lighting. Basically it was shot in a giant television studio.

 

But from what I've heard, most of the action in Superman Returns is just normal actors acting, a lot of it shot outdoors. So if was me, I'd be shooting film for the exteriors if nothing else.

 

I'm not saying they can't possibly make a passable movie using the Genesis(s), but I just wonder what they think the advantage is. We'll have to wait and see I suppose, always bearing in mind that Hollywood has always been perfectly capable of making crap movies without any help form Sony :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
it either only runs at one speed: 23.976 fps, (ie the "film for NTSC" frame rate), or (more likely) that's the only speed the production company will allow it to run at.

We have a couple shows on Viper currently, one running 23.976, the other 24.000. Post can deal with either one, no problem, by converting the 24.000 to 23.976 in dailies transfer. 24.000 solves a slight "breathing" issue with HMI and other discharge lamps, such as flourescents. 23.976 helps with ordinary CRT TV sets in the shot, and it's what most people are accustomed to. You can even go back and forth on the same production, provided that camera and sound take great care to both be on the same side of the "point zero zero" vs "point nine something" divide.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim Murdoch
We have a couple shows on Viper currently, one running 23.976, the other 24.000.  Post can deal with either one, no problem, by converting the 24.000 to 23.976 in dailies transfer.  24.000 solves a slight "breathing" issue with HMI and other discharge lamps, such as flourescents.  23.976 helps with ordinary CRT TV sets in the shot, and it's what most people are accustomed to.  You can even go back and forth on the same production, provided that camera and sound take great care to both be on the same side of the "point zero zero" vs "point nine something" divide.

-- J.S.

 

Whizzo splendid in the US of A old fruit, not so hot in Australia or Europe with PAL TV sets :P

 

You see, they managed to line up some vintage 70s PAL TV sets, which being Japanese made, strongly resembles the versions sold in the US. (My friend also has a fine little "working museum" of such sets in perfect condition, but of course they didn't ask him about that, hence his inclination toward a two-finger salute to the lot of them:-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Hi,

 

> This may not be all that big a deal in the long run, but it does indicate that the Genesis

> is still just a TV camera at heart, despite all the propaganda.

 

Drivel.

 

Any decent TV camera will have a genlock input and coarse/fine phase adjustments to allow precisely what you describe, although I doubt most PAL video cameras would go all the way down to 24fps. As a professional video camera I would expect Genesis (and Dalsa, and Kinetta) to have genlock inputs for exactly this reason.

 

However, I think this may be a situation where the film mafia have shot themselves in the foot, as they seem to be so desperate for it not to "be" a video camera that they've refused to include standard features....

 

Phil

Edited by Phil Rhodes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim Murdoch
Hi,

 

> This may not be all that big a deal in the long run, but it does indicate that the Genesis

> is still just a TV camera at heart, despite all the propaganda.

 

Drivel.

 

Any decent TV camera will have a genlock input and coarse/fine phase adjustments to allow precisely what you describe, although I doubt most PAL video cameras would go all the way down to 24fps. As a professional video camera I would expect Genesis (and Dalsa, and Kinetta) to have genlock inputs for exactly this reason.

 

However, I think this may be a situation where the film mafia have shot themselves in the foot, as they seem to be so desperate for it not to "be" a video camera that they've refused to include standard features....

 

Phil

>>>Drivel

Bollocks :P

 

I'd hardly be critical of a normal Broadcast TV camera that wouldn't genlock to a "weirdo" standard like 24 frame 650 line video! After all, most cameras' genlock circuitry is deliberately made über-fussy about what they will genlock to so you don't introduce non-broadcast video into a broadcast system. When I used to maintain broadcast cameras I was always hearing various dingbat operators complaining about that very thing, not realizing that they were simply broadcasting their own ignorance!

 

However, the Genesis is meant to be a video camera that you use like a film camera. And most film cameras can be easily under- or over-cranked and/or synced to any reasonably repetitive pulsed waveform. This can be the rough 'n' ready vertical sync of a computer monitor, a pulse off a strobe light, a magnetic pickup on a film projector, or 50/60 Hz mains. All you're really doing is controlling the average speed of a motor, which can be done with quite low-tech equipment.

 

But it does rather sound that doing the equivalent thing to a video camera's master clock circuitry has wound up in the "too hard" basket.

 

And if that's the case, the reason is probably that they would have needed to design the Genesis's signal processing circuitry from scratch, and I can't really see them doing that. It looks very much to me like Sony have simply tacked a single-sensor "front end" onto the same digital processing chain that they use for the F900/F950s (which in its basic design is not all that different to what they use for their SD Digital models).

 

I know a lot of people who wouldn't know a silicon chip from a potato chip will be racing into print to lecture me on how this is an entirely new type of camera and can't be judged by earlier standards and so on, but what's new there? <_<

 

>However, I think this may be a situation where the film mafia have shot >themselves in the foot, as they seem to be so desperate for it not to "be" a video >camera that they've refused to include standard features....

 

What are you talking about? The ability to "gen-lock" film cameras to a much wider range of frame rates than is possible with video cameras is one of the items on the long list entitled "Why people still shoot on film"! If they haven't included this "standard feature" it can only be because they can't! If the camera was really co-designed by Panavision, they must have asked for that feature, surely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim Murdoch

Meanwhile, just when you thought it was safe to come out of the developing tanks :P

 

The various movie fan forums are now carrying the intriguing rumour that some 25-year-old footage from Superman II is going to be incorporated into Superman Returns!

 

Marlon Brando appeared as Superman's father Jor-El in the original 1978 Superman movie, and some further footage of him and Christopher Reeve interacting was shot for Superman II, but there was some contractual dispute and the Brando footage was never used.

 

Now the word is that they want to salvage the images of Brando and replace those of Christopher Reeve with Brandon Routh! So they'll be blending early 1980s film with 2005 HD video; should be an interesting test of the technology.

 

Neither Brando nor Reeve could be reached for comment :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim Murdoch

Shooting for Superman Returns commenced Friday 11 March Australian time, which means Thursday 10th on the other side of the globe!

 

I've found a fan site where one of the posters' relatives is actually working on the

"Smallville" set near the town of Tamworth, about 200 miles north-west of Sydney. I'm trying to get him to find out what cameras they're using, although I'm not sure he really knows what I'm talking about.

 

But anyway, shooting is now actually underway and still not a peep out of Panavision as to what they're using!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest fstop

Actually, if the rumour is true, they'll be blending HD with footage shot in 1977, during the first week of filming on the original Superman movie (all of Brando's footage for both Superman 1 and 2 was shot in 77 in one week, as the plan was to do both films back to back).

 

They should really be pouring money into getting a Richard Donner cut of Superman 2 off of the ground instead of making a creatively bankrupt (copyright Phil Rhodes 2004) Bryan Singer amateurish fanfilm embarrasment on $100M. Don't get me started on the cinematography issue- Northfork is the only film in the last twenty years that looks anything like an Unsworth Superman movie, and somehow even on that basic level nobody had the brains to stick that film's DP on the project...

 

Well, should make a perfectly suicide-inducing double bill with the Pink Panther Remake. Hell, why stop there? Michael Keaton in the new Herbie sequel, Peter Jackson's new King Kong, Jessica Simpson in the Dukes of Hazard, Colin Farrell in Michael Mann's Miami Vice movie...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim Murdoch
Seems like that would be a fairly difficult secret to keep once shooting has started.

 

You'd think so, but my point is, Panavision themselves are remaining steadfastedly mute on the matter. In fact they've really battened down the hatches on this one; they just don't reply to any e-mails that even vaguely allude to this subject.

 

Which is a bit odd. As you say, it would be difficult to keep it a secret, but once the word has gotten out, they're only making it look like they've got something to hide!

 

But I guess they must still be smarting, after all the hype and Ballyhoo of them providing the cameras for Star Wars II and then having Lucas go to Plus8Digital for SWIII!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim Murdoch
Hire a spy to go and find out what they are using!

As it happens, I have a friend who has landed a job as an extra when shooting commences in Sydney, but the word will probably be officially out by the time he gets his call!

 

Panavision must be going to announce it soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim Murdoch

The latest from one of my on-set spies is that it's going to be about 90%video and 10% film, the film mostly for background plates. I'd imagine they'd also be using film for any slow-motion work, as the current model Genesis apparently doesn't go faster than 30fps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If this is true then it seems there will be heavy post processing to make it look like slick 35mm.

How BORING.

 

I would be much more excited about digital imaging if it offered an entire paradigm shift. Something new. Not all this fuss to just do the same thing we already can do.

 

In Santa Monica there is this shop were they can take a picture of a person, they puts it into this machine. I guess the machine reads the geometry of the face and with a laser recreates a three dimensional likeness of the picture into a crystal.

 

If we could shoot digital. Perhaps starting with a two dimensional image. The electronics in the camera also records the depth, height, and geometry of objects in the picture as metadata.

 

Then in the movie theater instead of watching a two dimensional screen, we would watch a three dimensional hologram.

 

Now I would be very excited about that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Peter Waal
If this is true then it seems there will be heavy post processing to make it look like slick 35mm.

 

Yes, it's called a D.I. It's how nearly every Hollywood movie is processed now. Get used to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
I wouldn't shoot a wedding with 35 mm film.

I think it's about time that you dropped your silly wedding 'argument'. It really doesn't prove a point.

 

And you can't do a digital intermediate on something shot on HD like 'Superman', since by definition it is already digital to begin with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member
And you can't do a digital intermediate on something shot on HD like 'Superman', since by definition it is already digital to begin with.

 

Yes, I hate how that term is misused to include digital origination transferred to film and movies shot on film projected digitally. The word "intermediate" implies that digital is the in-between step with film origination on one side and film projection on the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Forum Sponsors

Metropolis Post

New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

Film Gears

CINELEASE

BOKEH RENTALS

CineLab

Cinematography Books and Gear



×
×
  • Create New...