New York Times Article On Film Schools

[Guest Frank Gossimier]

Here's an article from the NY Times I'm sure will be of interest to all. Especially those contemplating a career in film.

 

Here's a sample....

 

Some 600 colleges and universities in the United States offer programs in film studies or related subjects, a number that has grown steadily over the years, even while professional employment opportunities in the film business remain minuscule. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are only about 15,050 jobs for film producers or directors, which means just a few hundred openings, at best, each year.

 

Given the gap between aspiration and opportunity, film education has often turned out to be little more than an expensive detour on the road to doing something else.

 

NY Times Article

 

Frank

[GeorgeSelinsky]

That said, I really doubt most people go into film school because they want to get a J.O.B. in filmmaking. I suspect most go into it thinking they want to be directors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your suspicion is not wrong. In my introductory film class at NYU, they gathered everyone together. A DP was addressing us. He asked "How many of you want to be directors?". Out of 60 people, about three quarters raised their hands. "Now how many of you want to be script supervisors?". One person raised their hand. The DP said "Now this person will probably become a script supervisor. The rest of you most likely will not become directors."

 

He was certainly right. Many film students later went to different schools, i.e. law school (that was a popular one), others went and worked somewhere in post production, and a few got production jobs. A few became DP's (more like AC's aspiring to be DP's), or worked in sound (I always have a sympathy for sound people for some reason).

 

But every time I check my alumni newsletter, very, very few people ever make it out there and produce/direct movies. So far only three people that I went to class with made it anywhere - one as an actor in a small but noted indie feature, another as a director of a straight to video film (which bombed), and a third had his co-directed film featured in Filmmaker mag. Nobody else from my graduating class has made any dents that I've seen.

 

- G.

Edited March 8, 2005 by GeorgeSelinsky

[Matt Pacini]

I've wondered about that over the last 10 years or so, how it went from "film schools" offering programs & degrees, to damn near every University & Junior College in the nation offering filmmaking coures.

I know I'm not necessarily in the majority here with my opinions about the filmschools vs. "just get in there and make films for your education" concept, but I'm with you; I think it's a scam.

 

This is especially true at colleges anywhere other than where the film industry takes place (NY & LA).

 

You end up with college instructors who have never actually worked in the industry, who were taught by college instructors who have never actually worked in the industry, etc., so what the students are taught are 30-50 year old "truths", and the rest is either padded to the max with mondo filler theory and esoteric analysis (so they can get as much cash out of you as possible), or just crap made up by the teachers, or info that they regurgitate from reading industry trade publications.

 

Then you have classes where 99% of the students want to be directors, and they're supposed to put projects together, so suddenly all your "directors" have to become writers, grips for the other people's projects, etc. It becomes a clusterf*** of spoiled rich kids whining because instead of directing, they're having to so stuff they don't want to on other people's projects.

 

The fact that the colleges know these statistics about how unlikely it really is that any of these people are really going to work in this industry, yet they go ahead and fund these large film programs anyway, is proof to me that they're all about getting your money, not necessarily you getting a job.

 

Sorry to sound so cynical, but I started taking film classes when I was living in L.A., (while working full time and paying my own way, NOT mooching off of Mommy & Daddy), and I just got so sick of the B.S., and to me, the dollar-to-useful education/experience ratio was really bad, so I decided to actually start shooting stuff instead.

 

Maybe it would have been different if I could have gone full-time to UCLA or USC, but being from a lower middle-class background, I didn't have the luxury of living off of Mommy & Daddy's $$$$$.

 

Matt Pacini

[Guest Ian Marks]

Matt: right, right, right, right... and so on (IMHO).

[Guest]

I recently saw Ivan Reitman interviewed, he talked about how success in the film industry is mainly had by those who create their own opportunities.

 

Certainly getting a full time job at a studio as a film director is pretty tough to come by unless you're incredibly lucky and talented, or you know the right people.

 

I've never had any one offer me a position as a director, I've always had to create and fund my own projects. This has had varying degrees of success. Some shows made it, others didn't. At least I did get to be the producer/director and call the shots for better or for worse.

 

10 years after leaving film school I'm still in the film biz and making a decent living. Based on the stats that alone is an achievement of sorts. I had a guy come to my house one night to sell me insurance, he mentioned that he went to film school, and that his wife did as well!!

 

Of course it's pretty tough to be a writer or a professional musician as well.

 

DP work can be pretty steady once you get going, and having a stock library on the side never hurts to plug the holes :D

 

Richard

[GeorgeSelinsky]

You end up with college instructors who have never actually worked in the industry, who were taught by college instructors who have never actually worked in the industry, etc., so what the students are taught are 30-50 year old "truths", and the rest is either padded to the max with mondo filler theory and esoteric analysis (so they can get as much cash out of you as possible), or just crap made up by the teachers, or info that they regurgitate from reading industry trade publications.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to say in all fairness to NYU most of their instructors have worked in the business and got things done. Granted, none of them were really bigtimers (save for when Spike Lee or Martin Scorcese would teach a class, which was VERY rare), but they were professionals without a doubt. Yeah, I did see some teachers there who had an abysmal track record and just got in because they knew someone, but they tended not to last too long - students can drive a teacher out sometimes if they lobby hard enough.

 

However, in most other university film departments you get people who may have held a small job somewhere in film but never really got further than that. The main issue here is that if you're a working pro in film, you really don't have the time to be a fulltime professor. Furthermore the money won't make it worth your while. The only reason bigtimers go to teach is pretty much for the satisfaction of doing so.

 

In all honesty, you don't need a bigtimer to teach you, all you need is someone who did get something done in the business. Teaching film students every little detail and fine point about the business is really useless, they won't be able to really take advantage of it. The most important thing that I think you learn in film school aside from the fundamentals of the craft is what real professionalism is all about.

 

When you leave film school it's like leaving law school, it makes you nothing but ready to learn and go further.

 

- G.

[Dan Salzmann]

In an odd way its like someone that wants to be in a successful rock band going to music school.

Education doesn't guarantee anything other than a diploma that does not count for much.

That being said I suppose that some connections can be made that can be useful later.

Most of the technical (and theoretical) side of film making can be gotten through books, hounding people and actual shooting. I don't know if its true but I heard that NYU does not even have a super16mm camera. The glamour of directing is understandable because of all the hype.

While I love being a cinematographer I don't see it as being glamourous at all and that is just fine.

I have met so many so called directors that have absorbed tons of film analysis and read books with titles I can not even begin to understand ("Film Beyond Semiotics" etc.) that have no idea where THEY want to put the camera or how to work with actors.

I feel that schools have a serious responsibility to give students as much of a reality check as possible.

[quinn]

I'm currently trying to get into the MFA program at Temple. For me, I think it makes sense because it would allow me to teach at the college level and continue to direct low budget projects on my own terms. I'm not delusional enough to think I will just go work in Hollywood, but would be very happy doing personal projects for film festivals, art installations, dvd.

 

I think it is a mixed bag. I have a ton to learn still and want the time to experiment. I think I will get a certain kind of info in the classroom, but really, just want more access to equipment and peers to keep making films outside of school. This would just give me two years where it's my 'job' to learn. Which would be nice.

 

But really, the only way to 'make it' is to do it. You can't sit around and read about painting and hope you'll sit down and pull out a davinci on your first try. For some reason, filmmakers usually think they have to make their first film great or it is over.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> You end up with college instructors who have never actually worked in the industry, who were taught

> by college instructors who have never actually worked in the industry, etc., so what the students are

> taught are 30-50 year old "truths"

 

This is how it is in the UK even at the highest levels, if only because we haven't actually had an industry for thirty years. Almost nobody has any real experience.

 

Phil

[Matt Pacini]

I'll give you a great example that is part inspiration for my cynicism.

 

A good friend of mine got to go to the USC Summer Film School program a few years ago (courtesty of his Mom's boyfriend $$$$$$$).

It cost $8,000, lasted I think it was a couple months.

 

After impressing all the students by taking them around to studio soundstages (in essence, exactly what you could get on the Universal Studios Tour), they were informed they would all be be making a short film.

They had one weekend to write a script & do their pre-production, and get this:

They were not allowed access to any FILM equipment.

They had to shoot on VHS cameras, and the program didn't even have enough for all the students, so my friend had to borrow one from his Aunt.

They were all trying to get other students to help them (who mostly all wanted to be directors, so this was difficult).

The result for his $8,000 was a VHS tape with a bunch of crappy typical film-school fare (imagine how bad they loooked, being shot on VHS), with almost every short having either a suicide, a drug addict, a prostitute, a gang member, or all of the above, (the theme usually being some extension of the student's own view on life: woe is me, nobody understands me, I'm being oppressed).

For the $8K he could have made a decent short on 16mm.

 

And this is USC engaging in this kind of ripoff, not your local JC in Winnemucca.

Shameless...

 

Matt Pacini

[GeorgeSelinsky]

with almost every short having either a suicide, a drug addict, a prostitute, a gang member, or all of the above, (the theme usually being some extension of the student's own view on life: woe is me, nobody understands me, I'm being oppressed).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hah, you should have sat in our Sight and Sound film class at NYU, you would have seen the same exact thing in glorious 16mm projected on a large screen :lol:

 

- G.

[Guest]

Matt,

 

Thanks for the info on the USC course, I was actually looking at that, since I have money to burn :D

 

Question: I think it would be great to hear from a real live USC grad, who did either their under grad or or graduate course. Do we have any here? Any one know any?

 

I would like to know if USC got them "into Hollywood". Yes I know it's more about the individual, but I'd be curious to know how many people can say, "USC broke me into the biz."

 

USC can claim that at least one USC grad has won an Oscar every year, in some category, since 1968.

 

I applied to USC way back when, but was rejected, so I went to a different film school for my BA.

 

 

Richard

[DavidSloan]

That was a good article and not very pessimistic at all; it talks about how the language of film can be applied in new industries. Good news for us youngins. I like how you just chose to cut and paste the negative part. ;)

[jeff striker]

thanks for everyones opinions. your comments have effectively confused me even more about school choices.

 

as of now, my goal is to take the Dramatic Writing major at SUNY Purchase, along with a handful of film courses. I understand that its up to me if i want to go anywhere in the business, and a masters in film or writing almost always means nothing, but now im unsure of what the benefits even are... I believe that writing can be mastered independently, and technique in cinematography can be mastered through books and hands on experience, which is not exclusive to film schools. I have this notion right now, that the only benefits will be the interaction with other aspiring writers/directors, possibly easier opportunities for internships and what not...i don't know. there just doesn't seem to be many things that i couldn't just go out and get myself.

 

opinions for the very confused kid?

[Alejandro Wilkins]

...film education has often turned out to be little more than an expensive detour on the road to doing something else.

 

I often wonder, usually while on the road home from yet another non-paying gig, where this detour might be leading me and where I will end up.

 

I think the hardest thing for me pursuing a career as a DP is the uncertainty in my choices. Even worse, it is very hard to tell if you are moving up, down or just sideways. No one has ever past on a solid formula for success. The only solid fact that has been consistent since I began my journey is that no matter how frustrating, financially straining, or depressing things get, I can't see myself pursuing anything else.

 

I guess I can only hope that the many obstacles still to come won't fade my passion.

 

Maybe I'm just not practical.

[Guest Kai.w]

thanks for everyones opinions. your comments have effectively confused me even more about school choices.

 

as of now, my goal is to take the Dramatic Writing major at SUNY Purchase, along with a handful of film courses. I understand that its up to me if i want to go anywhere in the business, and a masters in film or writing almost always means nothing, but now im unsure of what the benefits even are... I believe that writing can be mastered independently, and technique in cinematography can be mastered through books and hands on experience, which is not exclusive to film schools. I have this notion right now, that the only benefits will be the interaction with other aspiring writers/directors, possibly easier opportunities for internships and what not...i don't know. there just doesn't seem to be many things that i couldn't just go out and get myself.

 

opinions for the very confused kid?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know whether I can really speak for script writing but my thinking is that quite often you can get a different, lets say wider "background" when studying at an academy, while if you learn in the commercial production environment of the daily routine than you'll probably learn many things alot faster and probably even better if we talk abut the "craft" but in many cases you don't have the "space" for making mistakes, to innovate to become more artisticly(sp?) independent.

Of course this is not generally true and many people don't even want or feel the necessity for that "wider" background and thats ok.

Once again: I don't want to make a general statement, but at least if I look at many people in my field (lets call it "image design") I have the feeling it is true for many cases.

 

 

-k

[Matt Pacini]

I think you have to put all the pro's & cons into perspective., and for that, here are a few thoughts of mine for anyone considering it (not saying they're right, just my opinions) to keep in mind when debating whether or not film school is "worth it", or useful, or will help you get into the industry:

 

1. The most successful filmmaker of all time, Stephen Speilberg, could not get admitted to either USC or UCLA, and took (I believe) just one class in filmmaking from Long Beach City College (which he later said he learned nothing in). He got his break from showing his 8mm short films to an editor at Universal Studios that he befriended.

 

2. Some of you are not self-starters, and need someone to tell them what to do, when to get it done, etc., or you will simply not get around to doing the stuff necessary to learn on your own.

 

3. Almost nobody in the industry gives a damn about a degree; it's not like trying to get a job as a CPA or whatever:

Almost without exception, A professor in the film department of your local university, applying for a job as a grip or script supervisor, would lose that job to someone with no education, but who had even minor experience actually doing it.

 

4. The most useful thing about film school, is that you're meeting other students who "may" end up in the biz, and pull you in with them. (This is not a small thing, by the way!)

 

5. As discussed earlier, the miniscule amount of jobs, compared to the #'s of student's taking classes in film, is just ridiculous.

 

A good comparable scenario would be, if every college in the country had a department set up for training to be an astronaut, because every fifth kid in the country thought it would be the coolest job in the world.

 

6. If you got the cash, go for it.

But just don't be surprised when you get out, and tell people that you graduated from (fill in the blank), and they stare at you and yawn.

Your family & friends will be impressed, but not most people in the industry (most of whom got where they are without a film degree)

 

 

Matt Pacini

[DavidSloan]

Film school is a great way to learn about the craft, to totally immerse yourself in the craft, and to be surrounded by like minded individuals. You can also progress in your craft quickly, when you're in film school. You also get to trash the school's equipment...I'd rather drop a school's 2k, then drop a 2k, for the 1st time, on a set, over an actor's head! There is no job guarantee, but you will be a qualified person by the time you complete the program. I'm 100% satisfied that I attended a film program. It's pretty rare to find someone who didn't go to film school...one of the things people usually ask you, when they meet you is: "what school did you go to."

 

I wouldn't miss out on the college experience, it's a great place to mature and learn.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> you will be a qualified person by the time you complete the program

 

I'd contest that.

 

Phil

[Rik Andino]

Hi,

 

> you will be a qualified person by the time you complete the program

 

I'd contest that.

 

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course in England everything is the other way around

You guys crack your eggs the opposite way :)

 

Anyways I feel people are also forgetting the importance of a college education

In making you a more well-rounded individuals...

I know lots of you're laughing at this thought... :D

 

But think how you would be if you just have had a HS diploma

There's alot of things I've learn at the university

That I wouldn't have learn had I just got on the job training

And it's not just practical knowledge...

 

People often forget college aids you in becoming better educated person

You can hold better conversations with other educated folks

I can definitely see the difference talking to someone who just got a HS diploma

And someone who's spend 4-6-or 8 years at a university

There's a different mentality...

(I'm not trying to be an elitist but there's something about college

That slightly elevates you from the rest of the droogs...)

 

Most of us don't really understand this now...

Just struggling to make a living and pay back our college loans...

But in several years you'll see going to college is not a regretable decision...

I've spoken to lots of folks who regret never go to college

& complain that it's too late in their lives to change that...

I'm glad I'll never be one of those persons...

 

Don't neglect the importance of a college education that can be money well spent.

 

But you know these are just my 2 bytes

[Guest]

Has any one had a look at the costs for attending AFI? Their web site says the following:

 

The cost of attendance for the 2005-2006 academic year is as follows:

 

First year cost of attendance: $56,764

 

The cost of attendance is made up of the following items:

 

Tuition Deposit: $ 1,000

Regular Tuition: $ 28,500

EPMF (fees): $ 2,000

Room & Board allowance: $ 13,050

Supplies Allowance: $ 4,400

Transportation allowance: $ 2,250

Miscellaneous/ Personal Expenses: $3,564

*Thesis Tuition (Second Year only): $6,050

 

I guess if you live in LA you can save on the Room & Board portion, but $28,500.00 for regular tuition? Holy smokes! You would need some rich parents or a lottery win to foot the bill of attending this place. I think med school would be a better investment :D

 

But, the free market rules all and they would not be charging this kind of cash if they couldn't get away with it. Obviously some people out there can arrange for this financing.

 

FYI, they accept 28 cinematographers a year.

 

Caleb Deschanel went there, and there are few in the DP biz bigger than him that's for sure.

 

$56,000.00 a year though? You'd better get some good gigs upon graduation if you take out a loan for this.

 

Richard

[Matt Pacini]

Well, now you know where my "mommy & daddy" comments were coming from.

Who else (but rich kids) could afford to pay $50K per year, while going full time (meaning, you can't be working a full time job)???

If you can get someone to bankroll you for this, then more power to you. Go for it. I would.

 

And also, I think the context of this thread isn't a college education in general, but the usefulness of a film degree.

 

And all you guys who are in favor of film school, did you go to school anywhere other than in L.A. or N.Y???

I didn't think so...

And who paid for it? You or your parents? I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just putting it into perspective, that's all.

 

That's my point: you're certainly going to learn more, be more likely to have professionals teaching you, etc., in L.A. & N.Y., but seriously, damn near every college & J.C. in the country now has film courses, and "acts" like they're pro and are going to get you into the industry if you go through their program, which is just B.S.

I don't think it's worth the trouble unless you're in L.A. or N.Y., and have bagfulls of money (probably someone elses) to throw at it.

 

Matt Pacini

[Nate Downes]

And yet, the most fustrating thing about the whole "60% want to be directors" bit is, I don't want to direct, I want to shoot. But noone will take me on as even a 2nd AC, so I'm forced to direct my own bits just to have something to shoot.

[Guest]

Hey Matt,

 

For the record I went to the BYU film school in Provo Utah. Which is definately not LA or NY :D

 

Tuition at BYU was only about $1400.00 per semester when I was there in the mid 90s, so $2,800.00 a year. This amount I could easily earn while working full time during the summers. In school I worked part time, like most BYU students.

 

BYU owns a PBS affiliate and many of the film majors work there while they are in school and they get PAID. You can learn editing, camera work, master control, etc etc. The point is you're not scrubbing floors or mowing lawns. (not that there is any thing wrong with that, it's honest work). BYU owns their own 18 wheel state of the art broadcast truck, and the crew is all students! In fact on several occasions while I was watching a BYU basketball game on ESPN, the commentators would often say, "You might be interested to know that this game is being crewed by students." BYU also had a nightly news cast that was 100% student run, and broadcast over air, not just cable. (There is a list of BYU grads on network news longer than your arm.)

 

BYU has produced some name talents in film. Most recently Jared Hess writer/director of "Napoleon Dynamite", pretty impressive to make your first film out of film school at 24 years old and see it make 44 million at the box office. The star of the movie and many of the crew are also BYU film school grads. Other successful BYU film school names include Aaron Eckart, Neil LaBute, and Richard Dutcher.

 

So you see it is possible to attend a non LA or NY film school, not spend a huge amount of money, and have a successful film career. (BTW, the cost of living in Provo is very modest)

 

Financially speaking, AFI is obviously a lot more pricey than BYU.

 

There are never any guarantees of course, no matter where you go.

 

Richard

[Josh Bass]

I know a graduate of one of these so called film schools.

 

Here in Houston, we have a franchise (can schools be franchise?) called HCC, Houston Community College. There are several campuses throughout the city, one of which offers a one year "film school." Now, first off, there is no film involved at any point. It's a video school. Secondly, I don't think they even have any kind of pro gear. I believe the cams are all miniDV, and if anything, the lights are Lowell or maybe Smith Victor kits. I like how on the brochure, however, they show the professor (yes, just one) standing next to a film camera and a 2K or 5K or something on a stand.

 

"Josh, you judge so harshly"

 

Here's why. This guy I was working with on a project was a graduate of said program, and didn't know a damn thing. Owned a DVX100, no idea how to do anything but turn ito a preset, point and shoot. Didn't know anything about lighting, etc. Ditto how to tell a story, write, direct, etc. So that kinda solidifies my opinion of the program. Sorry, no idea how much they charge for it.

 

Granted, I'm just a low-end video guy myself, but gimme a break!