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Death of Film


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With the rapid disappearance of film labs and the problems at Kodak I am interested to know what your thoughts are with regard to the possible disappearance of film. If film and labs were to completely disappear tomorrow what would be the consequences? Is there any process or type of film that would no longer be available for access? For example some very early films were shot on non-standard widths and with non-standard perforations. With small quantities of film it would not be economic to build a scanner to digitise such films; the most economic way is to photographically copy them onto 35mm film and then digitise. You could copy each frame with a digital camera but it would involve a lot of manipulation to end up with an acceptable result. So what would we lose if film died?

Brian

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Brian,

 

the problem is much worse with some (not so old) videotape formats. I am trying to put together a dozen of good quality SVHS machines before it is too late. Sony nor Panasonic or JVC have any spare parts left for these machines. Same with Video/Hi8.

Copying existing films on any format would be possible with Kinetta-type scanners or similar, reading a Hi8 tape is only possible if you have functioning videoheads.

 

A recent job on early 1990ies Video8 tapes showed that about 30% would not run unattended and needed constant attention because of sticky tape.

 

Dirk

www.archivenow.eu

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A few days ago, a man that works at a well known camera rental house in New York mentioned that there has been a large increase of 35mm and 16mm camera rental. Film will be around for a while longer. :)

 

To Answer your question:

 

1) It would take an independently wealthy individual to buy a few processing machines from a lab that recently closed - to keep the remaining film being processed until it runs out. That may take a while because after Kodak and Fuji, there is Agfa and the Chinese and Gigabit film. The acetate and polyester base for the film will still be available. That same wealthy individual or some similar minded group would need to buy a film perforator.

 

2) What could be lost? Well controlled lab processes like Technicolor ENR or DELUXE ACE, CCE.

Edited by James Compton
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One might be not aware of the fact that a new generation of lab initiatives is taking over. There are at least 30 independent motion picture film laboratories active in Europe, from so-called artistic grounds over enjoyment to tough commercial labour. Old printing machines are being put back to service — I have a 1921 Debrie Matipo in perfect working order — fresh ideas come to life.

 

The Artist is an example for the viability of film, although not true black and white and not full frame, even of film without synchronous dialogue.

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Thanks for the replies, I personally think that film will be around for quite a while yet. The problem is convincing people to continue to invest in film and labs. I am working with an organisation who are saying 'why do we need to keep film processing when we can do everything we want with scanners?' The replies here worry me in that nobody has yet made a point that we need to keep film otherwise we cannot....

James does make the point that we would lose process manipulation. So what else is there?

 

I think that the first process to eventually disappear will be colour print, there are less and less cinemas with film projectors so why will it be necessary to make prints? Well if like me you have seen a Royal Film Premiere at the Odeon Leicester Square with a brand new 70mm print from a 65mm negative you would see why we need film especially when compared to the DVD like quality at local cinemas. Unfortunately that is not a reason to convince the money men. I am sure there will be bespoke labs around for sometime yet even if they are only catering to 'artist' film makers.

 

Brian

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With the rapid disappearance of film labs and the problems at Kodak I am interested to know what your thoughts are with regard to the possible disappearance of film. If film and labs were to completely disappear tomorrow what would be the consequences? Is there any process or type of film that would no longer be available for access? For example some very early films were shot on non-standard widths and with non-standard perforations. With small quantities of film it would not be economic to build a scanner to digitise such films; the most economic way is to photographically copy them onto 35mm film and then digitise. You could copy each frame with a digital camera but it would involve a lot of manipulation to end up with an acceptable result. So what would we lose if film died?

Brian

 

The Flicker by Tony Conrad springs to mind. Perhaps it might be possible to create something that emulates the film somewhat but it's not straightforward.

 

Stan Brakhages films are traditionally quite difficult in this aspect too but you may get a good facsimile if you can store the film uncompressed.

 

The films of Edvard Munch are all on 9.5mm film, so are already basically unavailable AFAIK

 

If there was no film tho, some types of film would be impossible to make in the first place

 

love

 

Freya

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What would we lose if film died?

Weʼd lose vagueness, uncertain terms (of endearment ?), all that guessing and the estimation inherent in physical processes. Everything besides strict calculation, everything not undergoing rationalism.

 

George Eastman found himself in a cinch in 1893 when he learnt that his film deteriotated within a few months. Nobody could find anything to explain the problem. From a cloud of guessing emerged William Stuber with a solution. It is said that it remained his secret.

 

I think the making of films has to do with a stubborn cohesion with one big secret, from raw stock manufacture to projection: the human has room to play her and his role with her or his senses. Sense of proportion, the timing on body rhythms, heartbeat and breath and emotions. Everything beyond mental control.

 

That is why I hate chess. Stupid 64 squares, boring calculatio. Chess board or pixels, all the same.

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  • 1 month later...

Shortly after Kodak's bankruptcy was announced, I had written a blog called "The Good News about The Bad News about Kodak" which can be read at www.comtelpm.com

 

Some of the highlights:

 

Kodak is still conducting research and developement on film stock. So, they are not expecting it to dissappear any time soon. Malcolm Spaull, chair of Rochester Institute Technology’s School of Film and Animation (http://bit.ly/yyVktp) noted that Kodak continues research and development in motion picture film and there is sustained demand. It will eventually suffer the same fate as still camera film, but not for another decade.

 

7 of the top 10 highest grossing indie movies from 2011 were shot on film.

 

According to the newest version of "The Digital Dilemma", a study from AMPAS, film is still best method or archiving movies. Digitally acquired movies may be in trouble when new technologies appear.

 

Also, we've been selling quite a bit of film. Just finished a series of Subaru commercials that used an enormous amount of 16mm film. We've got factory sealed cans of 35mm and 16mm as well as ends at up to 90% off the cost of new film.

 

Richard Kaufman

Comtel Pro Media

818-450-1122

richard@comtelpm.com

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Well, it's been a long time since I posted here. Just passing and noticed this thread.

 

Brian (Hi Brian!) asked what we wouldn't be able to do if film disappeared. One very physical process that would be lost would be hand-painted or scratched film: frame-by-frame animation on the film itself. Of course this is a very "experimental film" process: a poetic form rather than the conventional narrative form. But apart from people like Norman Mclaren and Stan Brakhage, I'm sure there must be people on this forum who've tried this.

 

That's my thought for today!

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Well, it's been a long time since I posted here. Just passing and noticed this thread.

 

Brian (Hi Brian!) asked what we wouldn't be able to do if film disappeared. One very physical process that would be lost would be hand-painted or scratched film: frame-by-frame animation on the film itself. Of course this is a very "experimental film" process: a poetic form rather than the conventional narrative form. But apart from people like Norman Mclaren and Stan Brakhage, I'm sure there must be people on this forum who've tried this.

 

That's my thought for today!

Actually, for us experimental film makers, film can't die, unless we want it to. If Industrial film stock manufacture goes, then we will most likely loose colour (though I assure you a DIY colour emulsion is being researched somewhere!) but the experimental film maker can easily make their own monochrome film emulsion. I've done it myself. The results can be quite remarkable. Film base is a separate problem, but there are oceans of film material out there for re-use. I don't think film base presents an insurmountable problem, given there are people and machines that can perforate film. We just have to find somewhere that is prepared to slit from whatever rolls of sheet material are being manufactured for other purposes.

So, film won't die for the experimental film maker, which includes so-called 'direct film' a la McLaren and Brakhage etc.. (smile emoticon)

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If Industrial film stock manufacture goes, then we will most likely loose colour

 

Foma USED to make a colour stock based on the old Agfa Patents. Like the rest of the east Europe photo industry they staped as the product would not be competitive with Kodak and Fuji. I wonder if they still have the technology to put something like that back into production? I wonder if Agfa might license one of them to produce a film based on the last Agfa Movie stock. The follow behind ADOX.DE recently posted on another forum that they have equipment to make 16mm Film if it would help their plans to resurect or clone Agfa APX B&W film.

 

AGFA themselves apparently only have the ability to make Polyester film. One outft in germany is finishing some of the AGfa AviPhot Ariel Camera film for still cameras. The AviPhot Colour negative does not have a mask.

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  • 1 month later...

? For example some very early films were shot on non-standard widths and with non-standard perforations. With small quantities of film it would not be economic to build a scanner to digitise such films;

Brian

 

Think that already happens a bit. Edvard Munch (I kid you not!) made films on the 9.5mm format. AFaIK it is impossible to see them. I've never been able to anyway. I'm sure if they were made on 16mm this would not be the case.

 

love

 

Freya

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Think that already happens a bit. Edvard Munch (I kid you not!) made films on the 9.5mm format. AFaIK it is impossible to see them. I've never been able to anyway. I'm sure if they were made on 16mm this would not be the case.

 

love

 

Freya

 

Wow there is another me that already replied to this thread in February! Worrying.

I wonder what else she has been up to! ;)

 

love

 

Freya

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The book did not dissappear. Check this out:

 

 

I will have my lab back one day, just you wait, ‘enry ‘iggins, just you wait!

 

Old steam engines are being put back to work.

 

I locate a heavy defect with film archivists, especially in Europe. I think ours is the worst. You are promised something by the director but that is never kept. There are quite some stories to be told.

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I used to really lament film's demise, but I think with quality of the images we're seeing from the latest crop of digital cameras, most of that sadness has disappeared. Technology is never stagnant, art is never stagnant, they grow and evolve with the times, and the move to digital is simply a natural continuation of that.

 

Film was a product of the industrial age, but I think there's no mistaking that we've now entered (indeed quite some time ago) the Digital Age, which will be an epoch as grand and all-encompassing as the industrial age was before it.

 

So as sad as it might be to say farewell to an old friend, the future is always looking forward, and that's what we have to do now.

 

I'm shooting a short on 16mm in a couple of weeks time and I plan to savour every moment of it. I'd recommend any other fan of film do the same whilst they still can.

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There's nothing to worry about if going by the predictions. The demand for film is pretty great. Many that switched to digital lacked the love for it in the first place and since they can't even get the death of analogue tape right nor the weather tomorrow, then who cares what they think?

Judging from analogue tape still having a solid place in the recording industry and the new demand for Vinyl records, I'm wondering what prompts they're "all knowing" predictions? Certainly they don't understand the value of a tangible medium to an artist.

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A cyber cloud is not a sufficient medium. There's no original with distinguishing characteristics. There's no look that resembles the imagination. There's no unique mixture in each frame. It's a robot that someone programed to move the paint brush for you. I give it a zero on the art medium scale.

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All this talk of film going away got me thinking, is there any other art medium that has gone away? We still paint on canvas, sculpt with clay and stone, etc. Many of these have been around for thousands of years. The only problem I see with film is that it's existence is in the hands of a profit driven industry. If the desire for film is great enough will we find a way to keep it? I think so.

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All this talk of film going away got me thinking, is there any other art medium that has gone away? We still paint on canvas, sculpt with clay and stone, etc. Many of these have been around for thousands of years. The only problem I see with film is that it's existence is in the hands of a profit driven industry. If the desire for film is great enough will we find a way to keep it? I think so.

 

I've thought about that as well. Niche market products still exist for mediums that have digital alternatives. Someone who paints with a Wacom tablet on a PC has relatively low overhead. A traditional painter pays exponentially more for paints, brushes, and other supplies on an ongoing basis.

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The problem is that you can make paints and brushes in your shed. If there's demand, you can get a bigger shed. You can't make film in a shed. It's an industrial, not an artisanal product. It needs making, monitoring, finishing. You might mix a b/w emulsion, but what would you coat with it? You can't boil down your own trees for cellulose in said shed. You can't test it by spreading a bit on a board and analysing it with the Mk.1 eyeball.

If enough people won't buy it, or if the profit from somewhere else doesn't enable it to be kept on for old times' sake, it's gone.

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