Scarlet's Compression to 3:1

Tadeusz Kieniewicz · June 2, 2012

Hi all!

I'm about to shoot a feature film and I'm in strong battle with producer who want to save as much money as he can!

What he asks is if Scarlet X will perform as good as Epic on big screen? Since I didn't work on Epic and Scarlet yet I'd like to ask you guys here what are your thoughts.

What RED's Scarlet compression 3:1 does really mean? Would you agree shooting a feature film (comedy) on Scarlet instead of Epic? (Alexa was our goal but it's to expensive for our budget)

Does Scarlet noise level is more noticeable than Epic?

We will be using Cooke S4/i lenses and quite a lot of lighting. Director want's to achieve warm bright look of the film.

Producer want DCP and DI, positive copy for theatrical screenings.

PS: I'll do some test of course, but It's always nice to hear from you guys!

Cheers and thanks in advance!

Ted Kieniewicz

Mike Lary · June 4, 2012

You can't get 3:1 compression out of Scarlet with current firmware at 24/25fps (unless you want to shoot at 2K or 1K). Also, your max resolution for 24/25fps is 4K (not 5K as with EPIC). Right out of the gate you're dealing with lower resolution, then there are compression limitations.

As for 3:1 compression on EPIC, it's hard to tell the difference between 3:1 and 6:1 unless there's a high level of detail in the shot. An example would be shooting wide in a forest where leaves, grass, pine needles etc aren't rendered well. The difference between 6:1 and 8:1 is easier to see. Note: I've done a lot of compression and noise testing on EPIC, but not for the big screen.

Mei Lewis · June 4, 2012

Red cameras crop to change resolution right? So does this mean Scarlet effectively has a smaller sensor than Epic, because only a smaller part of it is ever used at 24p?

Tadeusz Kieniewicz · June 4, 2012

You can't get 3:1 compression out of Scarlet with current firmware at 24/25fps (unless you want to shoot at 2K or 1K). Also, your max resolution for 24/25fps is 4K (not 5K as with EPIC). Right out of the gate you're dealing with lower resolution, then there are compression limitations.

As for 3:1 compression on EPIC, it's hard to tell the difference between 3:1 and 6:1 unless there's a high level of detail in the shot. An example would be shooting wide in a forest where leaves, grass, pine needles etc aren't rendered well. The difference between 6:1 and 8:1 is easier to see. Note: I've done a lot of compression and noise testing on EPIC, but not for the big screen.

I know that with Scarlet i can't go for 5K as with Epic. But when you want to finish with DCP 2K I don't think the diference between 4K from Scarlet and 5K from Epic would be crucial In term of resolution.

Compression is different thing and that is what I asked for. So what best quality I can get with Scarlet at 4K? 6:1? And how Scarlet performs comparing to RED One MX? Does 4K Redcode 42 performs better than 4K Scarlet both at 24fps?

cheers

Mike Lary · June 5, 2012

Compression is different thing and that is what I asked for. So what best quality I can get with Scarlet at 4K? 6:1?

Yes, 6:1. The user manual:

https://www.red.com/downloads

In regards to compression comparisons, I haven't seen anything definitive but this thread might be helpful:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-65382.html

edit: 4K might be fine for your needs, but 5K would give you more control in post. It's not just about finishing resolution.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Mike Lary

Mike Lary · June 5, 2012

Red cameras crop to change resolution right? So does this mean Scarlet effectively has a smaller sensor than Epic, because only a smaller part of it is ever used at 24p?

The sensor is the same size. On both cameras the sensor is cropped when you shoot lower resolution. Scarlet sensors don't meet EPIC's spec. That's why they have frame rate and compression restrictions.

Joshua Reis · October 11, 2012

Hi, a lot of movies have been shot on a Red One MX, so I will use that as a benchmark for comparison with the Scarlet. I'm sure many of us have seen Social Network, The Lincoln Lawyer, and other films which have all been shot on the Red One MX. Both the Red One MX and Scarlet MX can shoot 4k at 24fps 16:9. The Red One MX uses Redcode 36, which I have been told is about 8:1 compression. Redcode 42 is about 7.5:1. The Scarlet can shoot 4k 24 fps at 6:1 compression, which Ii'm told would be a Redcode 50. So with this purely technical comparison, you can see that Scarlet should hold its own on the big screen like the Red One MX. However, I will note that the Red One does have the advantage of a 4.5k mode for framing 2.40 widescreen using spherical lenses. This is something that the Scarlet does not offer. So thee Red One still has some advantages over its newer Scarlet sibling. However, the Epic is a whole other ballgame offering 5k mode at nearly three times the data rates.

Nate Opgenorth · November 18, 2012

Hi, a lot of movies have been shot on a Red One MX, so I will use that as a benchmark for comparison with the Scarlet. I'm sure many of us have seen Social Network, The Lincoln Lawyer, and other films which have all been shot on the Red One MX. Both the Red One MX and Scarlet MX can shoot 4k at 24fps 16:9. The Red One MX uses Redcode 36, which I have been told is about 8:1 compression. Redcode 42 is about 7.5:1. The Scarlet can shoot 4k 24 fps at 6:1 compression, which Ii'm told would be a Redcode 50. So with this purely technical comparison, you can see that Scarlet should hold its own on the big screen like the Red One MX. However, I will note that the Red One does have the advantage of a 4.5k mode for framing 2.40 widescreen using spherical lenses. This is something that the Scarlet does not offer. So thee Red One still has some advantages over its newer Scarlet sibling. However, the Epic is a whole other ballgame offering 5k mode at nearly three times the data rates.

Sorry to necropost but I had a few questions about this. I can confirm the Red One MX compression ratios FCP X shows footage from Red One MX as Redcode 42 (7.5:1) or similar wording of that nature which is nice....really wish I could use CF card modules on Scarlet even at a reduced bit rate (my deliveries won't be at 4K for a while thats for sure!). Your comment about 4.5K mode for 2.40:1 is sort of confusing...I just dealt with some 4480x1920 footage and it looks BEAUTIFUL but you make it sound as if Scarlets 4096x1706~ or so wouldn't stand a chance....now I realize that every bit of resolution is helpful but many productions mix 4K, 4.5K and 5K happily....are you talking about the 4480x1920 on the Red One MX or 4.5K anamorphic? I think both cameras can do 2.4:1 quite nicely though I imagine that having your bit rate wasted shooting 2.00:1 or 16:9 only to be cropped would be less quality but probably not THAT much. I do realize Red One MX is a more polished/Proven system and if I was given the choice of Red One MX vs Red Scarlet I'd choose Red One MX because its a proven system, might choose Scarlet if I needed some Canon support (as I have Canon glass). I mean I think both systems are win win...so Scarlet isn't built for major productions in mind...neither were Canon DSLR's and we've all scene pretty nice film outs from that. I'm completely open to debate/correction I just don't see the reasoning in potentially jumping on something with disadvantages/more money/etc when you don't have to. (Aka Epic vs Scarlet).

Patrick Faith · December 9, 2012

Sorry to necropost but I had a few questions about this. I can confirm the Red One MX compression ratios FCP X shows footage from Red One MX as Redcode 42 (7.5:1) or similar wording of that nature which is nice....really wish I could use CF card modules on Scarlet even at a reduced bit rate (my deliveries won't be at 4K for a while thats for sure!). Your comment about 4.5K mode for 2.40:1 is sort of confusing...I just dealt with some 4480x1920 footage and it looks BEAUTIFUL but you make it sound as if Scarlets 4096x1706~ or so wouldn't stand a chance....now I realize that every bit of resolution is helpful but many productions mix 4K, 4.5K and 5K happily....are you talking about the 4480x1920 on the Red One MX or 4.5K anamorphic? I think both cameras can do 2.4:1 quite nicely though I imagine that having your bit rate wasted shooting 2.00:1 or 16:9 only to be cropped would be less quality but probably not THAT much. I do realize Red One MX is a more polished/Proven system and if I was given the choice of Red One MX vs Red Scarlet I'd choose Red One MX because its a proven system, might choose Scarlet if I needed some Canon support (as I have Canon glass). I mean I think both systems are win win...so Scarlet isn't built for major productions in mind...neither were Canon DSLR's and we've all scene pretty nice film outs from that. I'm completely open to debate/correction I just don't see the reasoning in potentially jumping on something with disadvantages/more money/etc when you don't have to. (Aka Epic vs Scarlet).

I shoot with both epic monochrome and scarlet, if your going for a 2.4 aspect ratio and doing a DCP at 2k, the bit height is only 858. So if your doing a 2k DI, then all you do is whatever sensor resolution you have, you move that to a 2k DI DCP in something like nuke or premiere, and you can't tell the difference between the epic and the scarlet. If you want to do a 4k DI (this is extremely rare) it's hard to match up the epic with the scarlet.