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The anatomy of a Cinematographer


PANASONICDVX100

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Hey,

 

I am aspiring Writer/Director/Producer working on my first project that will be shot on 24p!

 

I am/was/still am searching for a Director of Photography for my project. My questions is why are Cinematographers so hard to work with/deal with?

 

They either don't want to travel or won't work below their quota or are extremely picky witht he assignments they will accept. I had prospects of using a very skilled and well know DP around here (known by people in this forum). She seemed really interested until I spoke of behaviour and expectations on set (this is a Christian film). I mean if I am paying to have them here I think I have the right here...

 

Also it is a known fact established DPs work at $300.00-500.00 a day and demand to work at those levels. I have no problem with that but they seem to quote their rates without even asking what the budget is. I mean if you want 500 bucks a day you need to find assignments with suitable budget levels. On a sub 5K DV budget you are not going to be making $500.00/day as a cinematographer.

 

What do you think?

 

This other DP I aquired about sent me a very professional resume with reel (it was really good). But said he was willing to negotiate but didn't work below $250.00/day and was not in a position to work for free (though I was not asking him to). Said he wanted return trip and at least one hot meal served to him on set a day. I mean I guess I found it demanding. I guess DPs don't really see the Director/Producer as their employer/supervisor but really should.

 

Why are they so hard to deal with?

 

CHRIS

 

Check out my blog: www.filmmakersblog.blogspot.com

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Sounds like very normal "demands".

 

You have to understand as a producer that you are obligated to take care of your crew, this includes the DP. It is a film making convention that people are fed on set. At least one hot meal a day is not unreasonable.

 

My day rate varies with the budget of the project. If it is a project that interests me either visually or story wise, I will take a pay cut. The DPs you are speaking of are taking a major hit in pay to bring your "vision" to the screen.

 

You have a right to a point, to dictate certain "rules" for the particular show. The crew should be respectful to your wishes. But, I don?t know what you were asking. If you elaborated we may be able to help explain why the crew did not oblige your wishes.

 

As you said, this is YOUR first project, thus you should be in the state of mind of learning from the others around you. The DP will usually be the most experienced person on set, and is your closest collaborator. Technically he is your employee, but artistically he is your close collaborator.

 

If you are trying to make a project for below 5k, you need to really rethink your approach. You want the DP to be someone who needs the work, is new and up and coming. He will be more likely to call in favors on your behalf, and make you feel less like he is doing you some big favor.

 

Also, your logic in coming here to bash cinematographers seems like a deliberate attempt to get your a** reamed. It is like you going to a NAACP meeting dressed in a Klan outfit . . . what do you expect to hear from the DPs on this forum? (Okay, maybe the analogy is a little extreme, but oh well :P)

 

Kevin Zanit

Edited by Kevin_Zanit
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lost in translations...:

 

1. "I am aspiring Writer/Director/Producer working on my first project that will be shot on 24p!" = I'm an obsessive-compulsive newbie that REALLY needs to get laid.

 

2. "My questions is why are Cinematographers so hard to work with/deal with?" = My grammar sucks and I'm angry... can I take it out on you guys?

 

3. "They (DP's) either don't want to travel or won't work below their quota or are extremely picky witht he assignments they will accept" = My assignment sucks.

 

4. "I had prospects of using a very skilled and well know DP around here (known by people in this forum). She seemed really interested until I spoke of behaviour and expectations on set (this is a Christian film). I mean if I am paying to have them here I think I have the right here..." = I was lucky enough to have a DP from this forum answer my call. Since the DP has a v@gina, my small peni$ feels threatened - so I'll single her out by referring to her as a "she" instead of a DP.

 

5. "On a sub 5K DV budget you are not going to be making $500.00/day as a cinematographer" = Pffft! Why should I pay 500$? I'm the genious here!

 

6. "I guess DPs don't really see the Director/Producer as their employer/supervisor but really should." = I'm lonely and no one respects me... and yes, I really need to get laid.

 

:D

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You should pry your head out of your a-- and screw it back on where it belongs.

If you're not the type who can solve problems or meet people half way then how can you expect ANYONE to take you seriously -- especially if this is your first project?

 

I'm new to cinematography too and the most important thing I learned from all of these posts combined is RESPECT.

 

DP's are artists -- whether they'll admit to it or not. Artists are notr always easy to work with.

But they are also human beings (yep - even the famous ones!) and should be treated accordingly.

 

As a producer you are more than just an "employer". You don't get paid to boss people around on set. You coach them, help them and listen to what they have to say. You feed them, take care of them and pay them what they deserve to be paid, and if you can't afford to, don't bother asking working professionals for help. Ask people like you and me - they may do it for free. I know I probably would for the experience/practice gained.

 

If you want professional results from professional DP's on a 5K budget "film", you're going to have to be moe flexible.

 

Why not shoot it yourself?? (this is your 1st project after all - itll probably suck anyway.. like most 1st projects usually do) You need the experience, right?\

Give it a shot.

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lol, this is the wrong place to vent ur frustrations out. Maybe you should go to a producer's forum and ask them for tips on how to get a good DP to work for your project. Coming here and bashing cinematographers won't help you land a good DP any time soon, but luckily for you, your under an alias.

 

Pizza 2-3 times a day almost every day doesn't cut it for good DPs and crew =)

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There's no problem is asking... and there's no problem when someone turns down the deal.

 

You have to consider that someone working on a film doesn't want to be LOSING money in the process, which is why asking for meals plus transporation, housing, and per diem (if at a distant location) are reasonable... ESPECIALLY if the salary is very low. Otherwise they will slowly be losing money throughout the shoot. Now there may be circumstances where they are OK with it (working for a friend, wanting that credit, etc.) but don't expect them to bring along any crew people because they won't be similarly motivated.

 

Now of course you can tell them that certain things are not in the budget, but you can hardly say they are being unreasonable when they then turn down the offer!

 

I've done some features for incredibly bad rates, or for free, but usually that's for people I know personally, not for strangers. And one hot meal after six hours of working is ALWAYS part of any production -- the worse you pay people, the more this becomes true.

 

When one is talking about shooting no-budget features for strangers, a DP will be naturally pessimistic and cautious about signing on to something if ANYTHING about it "smells" wrong to them. We look for warning signs and flags that tell us to stay away from a project. Perhaps this happened in this case. If a producer thought the idea of providing a meal and transportation was "demanding", my first response was that this producer was unprofessional and inexperienced -- I'd stay away like the plague.

 

If you don't have the budget to fly people over to your location, then hire locally. If you don't have the money to feed the crew one meal a day, then don't make the movie... or don't use a crew and do it all yourself so you're the only one suffering.

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WHY ARE DIRECTOR SO HARD TO WORK?!

 

Especially first-time directors...

 

Listen this is your first project

You probably never been on a professional set (if you've been on a set at all)

You wrote a few screenplays directed a couple of small plays (hopefully)

And now you feels it warrants you a good if not great filmmaker

And all should bow to you because of this..."and it's a great project too!" :lol:

 

Listen carefully

You need a DP more than they need you.

You also probably need a good producer, AD, art director, sound mixer, and actors

And expect them to make similar demands

 

DP, producers, ADs, art directors, sound mixers, grips, actors, gaffers, etc..

Do this for a living--we do this to eat and clothe and put a roof on our head.

Why should we be forced to work for free?

And then pay for our own meals? And provide our own transportation?

And afterall that you should KOWTOW to the director

Because he's also the Producer and is going to supervise the whole thing

SUPERVISE WHAT! Do you know how to supervise a filmset?

If you're employer ask you to do the same you'd say f**K off! :angry:

 

Many first-timers--Directors think cause it's fun for them it's fun for all

But usually it's just work for the rest of us--hard work.

 

Shooting a feature is hard.

Shooting a feature with little or no experience is very hard

Shooting a feature with 5K is near impossible

Shooting a feature with 5K and little or no experience is almost impossible

You'll need all the experienced help you can get...

 

And don't get pissed off because you won't get to boss the DP around

Just because you're paying their salary (if you are paying their salary)

You paid Doctors and Lawyers too but you don't get to tell them what to do.

 

You're best bet is to BEG students to help you out & treat them real nicely

Get them the best food you can afford!

Be really nice on set and let them help out making creative decisions

And maybe...just maybe you'll get you're 24P 5K feature made.

 

 

GOOD LUCK!

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Kevin,

 

No problem with anything that you've said. I want to explain again I did not/am not here to bash DPs. I recognize that it is a craft, one many are gifted at and that the Cinematography is the most important part of the production team.

 

Again allow me to apologize for any misunderstanding.

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You should pry your head out of your a-- and screw it back on where it belongs.

If you're not the type who can solve problems or meet people half way then how can you expect ANYONE to take you seriously -- especially if this is your first project?

 

I'm new to cinematography too and the most important thing I learned from all of these posts combined is RESPECT.

 

DP's are artists -- whether they'll admit to it or not. Artists are notr always easy to work with.

But they are also human beings (yep - even the famous ones!) and should be treated accordingly.

 

As a producer you are more than just an "employer". You don't get paid to boss people around on set. You coach them, help them and listen to what they have to say. You feed them, take care of them and pay them what they deserve to be paid, and if you can't afford to, don't bother asking working professionals for help. Ask people like you and me - they may do it for free. I know I probably would for the experience/practice gained.

 

If you want professional results from professional DP's on a 5K budget "film", you're going to have to be moe flexible.

 

Why not shoot it yourself?? (this is your 1st project after all - itll probably suck anyway.. like most 1st projects usually do) You need the experience, right?\

Give it a shot.

 

TSM,

 

I have an interested DP and one that understands my vision. She is a Christian which helps.

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lol, this is the wrong place to vent ur frustrations out.  Maybe you should go to a producer's forum and ask them for tips on how to get a good DP to work for your project.  Coming here and bashing cinematographers won't help you land a good DP any time soon, but luckily for you, your under an alias.

 

Pizza 2-3 times a day almost every day doesn't cut it for good DPs and crew =)

 

Andre,

 

I am thinking that it might be a great idea. Thanks.

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WHY ARE DIRECTOR SO HARD TO WORK?!

 

Especially first-time directors...

 

Listen this is your first project

You probably never been on a professional set (if you've been on a set at all)

You wrote a few screenplays directed a couple of small plays (hopefully)

And now you feels it warrants you a good if not great filmmaker

And all should bow to you because of this..."and it's a great project too!"  :lol:

 

Listen carefully

You need a DP more than they need you.

You also probably need a good producer, AD, art director, sound mixer, and actors

And expect them to make similar demands

 

DP, producers, ADs, art directors, sound mixers, grips, actors, gaffers, etc..

Do this for a living--we do this to eat and clothe and put a roof on our head.

Why should we be forced to work for free?

And then pay for our own meals? And provide our own transportation?

And afterall that you should KOWTOW to the director

Because he's also the Producer and is going to supervise the whole thing

SUPERVISE WHAT! Do you know how to supervise a filmset?

If you're employer ask you to do the same you'd say f**K off!  :angry:

 

Many first-timers--Directors think cause it's fun for them it's fun for all

But usually it's just work for the rest of us--hard work.

 

Shooting a feature is hard.

Shooting a feature with little or no experience is very hard

Shooting a feature with 5K is near impossible

Shooting a feature with 5K and little or no experience is almost impossible

You'll need all the experienced help you can get...

 

And don't get pissed off because you won't get to boss the DP around

Just because you're paying their salary (if you are paying their salary)

You paid Doctors and Lawyers too but you don't get to tell them what to do.

 

You're best bet is to BEG students to help you out & treat them real nicely

Get them the best food you can afford!

Be really nice on set and let them help out making creative decisions

And maybe...just maybe you'll get you're 24P 5K feature made.

GOOD LUCK!

 

Rik,

 

I don't expect crew to work for free, just meet me halfway. Making a feature on a sub 5K 24p is very hard indeed. I did not properly inform you. This is only 24 minutes so more of a short. It still has it's challenges. I have no problem feeding the crew or putting up the lodging. I DO expect professionalism on the set which apparently have a problem with.

 

Do they want work or not?

Edited by PANASONICDVX100
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Hey,

 

I am aspiring Writer/Director/Producer working on my first project that will be shot on 24p!

 

I am/was/still am searching for a Director of Photography for my project. My questions is why are Cinematographers so hard to work with/deal with?

 

They either don't want to travel or won't work below their quota or are extremely picky witht he assignments they will accept. I had prospects of using a very skilled and well know DP around here (known by people in this forum). She seemed really interested until I spoke of behaviour and expectations on set (this is a Christian film). I mean if I am paying to have them here I think I have the right here...

 

Also it is a known fact established DPs work at $300.00-500.00 a day and demand to work at those levels. I have no problem with that but they seem to quote their rates without even asking what the budget is. I mean if you want 500 bucks a day you need to find assignments with suitable budget levels. On a sub 5K DV budget you are not going to be making $500.00/day as a cinematographer.

 

What do you think?

 

This other DP I aquired about sent me a very professional resume with reel (it was really good). But said he was willing to negotiate but didn't work below $250.00/day and was not in a position to work for free (though I was not asking him to). Said he wanted return trip and at least one hot meal served to him on set a day. I mean I guess I found it demanding. I guess DPs don't really see the Director/Producer as their employer/supervisor but really should.

 

Why are they so hard to deal with?

 

CHRIS

 

Check out my blog: www.filmmakersblog.blogspot.com

 

 

To add something further I just felt floored I suppose at the things that some of them think they can get away with. One DP wanted $5000.00 USD flat for my feature without even asking the budget and went on he wanted this and this and this...

 

I mean that must be nice just to rhyme of what you want - but this is not the real world instead of what he should've done - bargained with me. He said he was not in a position to work for free ( no one was asking him to). I mean it just gets to the point who is working for who here. I am sorry you cannot be the DP and call the shots. You can't have it both ways...

Edited by PANASONICDVX100
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I don't see why you are so bent out of shape because you met some unaffordable DP's. As a DP, I've done my share of projects for free or for as little as $100/day -- there are people out there who will work for such low rates IF the project appeals to them in some other ways. All you can do is keep looking for such a DP (warning, you may get what you pay for.) They are out there.

 

But it is completely reasonable for some professional to inform you what the lowest rate they will work for regardless of your budget; it simply means they don't need your job one way or the other, so if their salary demands means they don't get hired, they are OK with that.

 

I have no problem with you trying to make something on nothing and having little to pay people -- I'm just not sure why you are surprised that there are few people who want to work for those rates. Yes, if you have a $5000 budget, you probably shouldn't pay someone $500/day. I shot a short film with a $10,000 budget for free, a three-day shoot. I knew the people involved and did it as favor. The whole crew worked for free; they all had their own reasons. So it happens. But don't expect it to be easy to put together a crew for very small rates -- it's ALWAYS a struggle. That's just the nature of it. I wouldn't resent people who expect to be paid something comiserate with their skills. If they work for less than that, they are doing you a favor, and you shouldn't EXPECT strangers to do you favors, should you?

 

Certainly if you continue to have this hostility towards DP's, you'll never get one to work for you at those rates. I'd still work for free for the right people, but from the tone of your post, I'd probably charge you my full rate...

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I don't see why you are so bent out of shape because you met some unaffordable DP's.  As a DP, I've done my share of projects for free or for as little as $100/day -- there are people out there who will work for such low rates IF the project appeals to them in some other ways.  All you can do is keep looking for such a DP (warning, you may get what you pay for.)  They are out there. 

 

But it is completely reasonable for some professional to inform you what the lowest rate they will work for regardless of your budget; it simply means they don't need your job one way or the other, so if their salary demands means they don't get hired, they are OK with that.

 

I have no problem with you trying to make something on nothing and having little to pay people -- I'm just not sure why you are surprised that there are few people who want to work for those rates. Yes, if you have a $5000 budget, you probably shouldn't pay someone $500/day.  I shot a short film with a $10,000 budget for free, a three-day shoot.  I knew the people involved and did it as favor.  The whole crew worked for free; they all had their own reasons.  So it happens. But don't expect it to be easy to put together a crew for very small rates -- it's ALWAYS a struggle.  That's just the nature of it. I wouldn't resent people who expect to be paid something comiserate with their skills. If they work for less than that, they are doing you a favor, and you shouldn't EXPECT strangers to do you favors, should you?

 

Certainly if you continue to have this hostility towards DP's, you'll never get one to work for you at those rates.  I'd still work for free for the right people, but from the tone of your post, I'd probably charge you my full rate...

 

David,

 

I am not hostile to DPs. I am being critical and maybe that is what you mean. You don't like me saying their ways are bad. A lot like the way Jesus was with Jews and High Preists.

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Well there are I'm sure tons of students that would love to shoot your movie for free, maybe even pay for their own meals. BUT when someone says that, most likely they'll do it to add something to their reel and spend tons of time lighting it perfect while your horribly behind schedual. I'm not saying all of them are like that but a lot are even if they say your script is so thought provoking etc etc. There are some good DPs that'll work for free if they thought the script was really really good. So good that it'd win awards at festivals. Maybe the best thing for you to do is to try extra hard on revising your material then presenting it to DPs. If it's good enough, you'll never know.

 

There's so many ads on our school's bulletin boards like "will be in many festivals" "An orginal story of how an ugly girl becomes beautiful over night", you would really need to stand out on originality of ads. I don't know about anyone else but when I see the phrases silmilar to that on the want ads, I don't bother looking at it anymore.

 

You might even think about changing the script based on your budget. If it's some epic war drama or film noir style movie, you won't be able to get a DP that'll dish out huge chunks of money for lighting and camera equipment. If a lot of your script is based outside or inside w/ natrual light, you might be able to use a 24fps DV camera (owned by the DP) which would costs you very little just to rent a small lighting kit and would be even better if the DP had that as well. Movies w/ all natural lighting is not impossible and with a good solid script and a dp that can control exposure well. That's just a small solution I can see. Good luck w/ finding a DP. It's a very tough industry, especially for directors. :(

Edited by Andre Lim
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I hope you aren't blowing your life savings.No offense but you sound clue-less. Your making a short but you use the word feature, no wonder someone asked for $5000. Thats a bargain for a good DP. We live for this stuff and need to eat, you sound like thats not your concern. For your own good make sure you get some experience in filmmaking before you go out waste your time, money and chance at making a decent film.

 

You probably won't so do yourself a favor and get an experienced art director (even if its a set decorator or interior designer looking to step up) and a competant sound mixer.

 

Does anyone remember from film school who said (wrote): "Your first five films are going to suck anyway so go ahead and get them out of the way!"

 

BTW: I expect some real shenanigans from the title of your post b/c DPs can be real pains-in-the-a$$ to producers and directors, crew members,their wives, girlfriends, etc and your just bitchin' about bean counting. Stand by.

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dvx -

 

Your low budget is not their problem. If they have a minimal rate, that is their business. It's unfair to ask 'do they want the work or not.' McDonalds could lower their rate to 2 bucks an hour if their budgets get tight, but people still have the right to ask for minimal wage. 500 bucks a day is a great price for an experienced DP. If you can't afford it, you have to live with that. You seem to like the idea of being persecuted.

 

I just made a film for about the same amount. On about a third of my shoots, I was completely solo - unpacked the gear, set up the camera, set up audio, light the set, direct the actors, feed them, walk the dog, deal with people not showing up, plan the next day, make phone calls, pack up. 10-18 hour days. It's tough work, but you can do it. It's not ideal though - my audio really suffered.

 

On the other days i was lucky to have one other crew person to do audio and help me light. It was an amazing learning experience and a baptism by fire. The film is not the most amazing thing in the world, but my second one is coming out stronger for it.

 

You have to work with their budget as much as they have to work with yours. If you have a 5,000 dollar budget you are looking at a crew of college and high school students. Get the best actors you can. A good chunk of that budget will go towards food, tape stock, maybe gels, etc.

 

Your best bet is to start crewing for area filmmakers. Meet crew that way. Work for free and people will often repay the favor. Once you get more experience, invest more money in equipment, etc, you'll see why people have rates like that.

 

Best of luck, but try and step back and see the big picture.

 

Maybe this is more appropriate: matthew chapter 7: And why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye, and not notice the beam which is in your own eye?

 

good luck,

tom

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Hi,

 

> One DP wanted $5000.00 USD flat for my feature without even asking the budget

 

S'funny, some estate agent asked me for £135,000 for an apartment the other day, and he didn't ask what my budget was!

 

Phil

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Do they want work or not?

 

Yes, they probably want to work on paying gigs. A Dp's gotta eat.

 

I can only speak from my experience, but the idea of setting aside (or even not being available for) a $$$ job for a no-$ "job" isn't very appealing. Especially when (at least I've found) the vast majority of anemic DV productions are ill-conceived garbage (not implying yours is) that end up littering the producer's closet, if they are finished at all.

 

Come over and help me paint my house this summer, i can't really pay anything, but it should look fabulous when it's done!

Edited by PatrickNeary
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