Erkan Umut Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) The venerable Nikon R series, I loved the most, have those parameters (after a 4-year obsessive study with the highly skilled engineer and design team): Take-up torque - 45 ~ 60g/cm Film gate - 8,02mm in width, there should be a clearance on the upper side pressure plate. Side pressure - Upper side: 60 ~ 75g, Lower side: 40 ~ 55g Contact pressure of claw cam - 20 ~ 30g Protrusion of claw - 0,28 ±0,05mm from the base surface of aperture plate Moving of picture - Within 0,02mm vertically and laterally on the film plane, No remarkable periodicity is permitted. Fluctuation of the focused plane: within 0,025mm Displacement of picture frame center and of optical axis - within 0,1mm Position of picture area on the film - Displacement of effective picture area from film perforations: within 0,13mm, Difference of picture plane in the reversal run from that in the normal run: within 0,2mm Inclination of picture frame - With respect to the guide edge of film, Horizontal 90° ±½°, Vertical 90° ±½° Can you find these in the standards? Those are the just the small amount of information... This is the engineering involved in mathematics, extensive testing and a real know-how! Plus the high precision manufacturing... Edited November 25, 2013 by Erkan Umut 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Chabbat Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Am I really the only to find that these unchecked statement don't make any sense ? Friedemann, when you say the film path is "concave", you do realize that if it really was, the film guide of the gate would push the film well beyond your 0.14mm "channel", pressing it against the "useless" pressure pad ? You do realize that only a small portion of the film would actually be concave, near the center of the image area, because the pressure pad behind it, being straight, could not make the film follow the form of the whole gate ? And if the film is not pressed against the gate, why do all film gates are machined with film guides and recess ? A straight plane gate would have the same effect. A 0.01mm difference between film thickness and your "channel" is a really, really tight tolerance, giving only a 0.005 freedom of movement on each side of film. To achieve that, cartridges would have to be machined extremely precisely, the molded plastic would be insufficient. Unless, like you all seem to think, Kodak engineers really wanted to sell a flawed design. People, please do not assume wild statements as actual facts, just because "somebody else" said it. Check the facts. Ask for the actual source. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Chabbat Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) Thank you Erkan to give some actual precise information ! Fluctuation of the focused plane: within 0,025mm Read carefully people. This fluctuation is way bigger than the freedom allowed by Friedemann's "film channel", proving that even if it existed, it would be inefficient as film moves far beyond those specs. Edited November 25, 2013 by Tom Chabbat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan Umut Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 To be discussed the engineering specifics one should have an education of 4 or 5 years in the mechanical engineering degree, plus 2 or 3 years in the precision engineering, as well as having the advanced optical, electromechanical and electrical courses. But in the history we faced with the skilled and experienced technicians working with those engineers... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan Umut Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Today, I will do my homework for you Tom, fortunately, my meetings and projects will begin the next month ;) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan Umut Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I had a Nikon R8 with the unimportant fungus on its lens, that I sold some years ago, after I disassembled completely. The buyer from Turkey paid me for that carcass USD50! :) What a name and model! We have seen the curved gates for mainly larger film formats, even in projectors. This is due to the larger in size films' area and prone to the curls to obtain more precise focusing and avoid the breathing of focus (this term also applies in the lens designs, but different). During the Nikon's design there was acetate based films too. They are not new... Super 8 doesn't need any curved gate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Chabbat Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) I cannot thank you enough Erkan for your precious knowledge. What you say is totally relevant to my point. That premium cameras like the wonderful Nikon were made by skilled technicians and engineers who knew exactly what they were doing. The whole point of this kind of cameras was to have the best quality possible in Super 8. If the cartridge wasn't capable from the start to achieve what was required, there would be no point of putting such fine glass and precise gear around it. Don't underestimate japanese engineers from the 70's, they made in their time most the of finest manufactured products. I know you don't like it Erkan, but when you open it, the Fujica ZC1000 has the most beautifully machined gear I ever saw on a 8mm camera... The Beaulieu's internals seems so crude in comparison ! Edited November 25, 2013 by Tom Chabbat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andries Molenaar Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) Noo, the stop pin is just for the reverse shot for accurate framing! During forward it has no effect!!! You have to examine it with a clear film like a leader... Also, the frame size is a little different than most cameras have. There are two stop pins. One in use forward and the other for reverse. Easy to feel and see when you move the REW/FOR switch. The one stop pin comes up the other retracts. And reverse of course. Very very few people actually have an idea how these R10 stop pins work. Edited November 25, 2013 by Andries Molenaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andries Molenaar Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 The venerable Nikon R series, I loved the most, have those parameters (after a 4-year obsessive study with the highly skilled engineer and design team): Take-up torque - 45 ~ 60g/cm Film gate - 8,02mm in width, there should be a clearance on the upper side pressure plate. Side pressure - Upper side: 60 ~ 75g, Lower side: 40 ~ 55g Contact pressure of claw cam - 20 ~ 30g Protrusion of claw - 0,28 ±0,05mm from the base surface of aperture plate Moving of picture - Within 0,02mm vertically and laterally on the film plane, No remarkable periodicity is permitted. Fluctuation of the focused plane: within 0,025mm Displacement of picture frame center and of optical axis - within 0,1mm Position of picture area on the film - Displacement of effective picture area from film perforations: within 0,13mm, Difference of picture plane in the reversal run from that in the normal run: within 0,2mm Inclination of picture frame - With respect to the guide edge of film, Horizontal 90° ±½°, Vertical 90° ±½° Can you find these in the standards? Those are the just the small amount of information... This is the engineering involved in mathematics, extensive testing and a real know-how! Plus the high precision manufacturing... These are the applied adjustment tolerances from the maintenance book for R10 R8. These form no information in itself about the the design or functioning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andries Molenaar Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) People, please do not assume wild statements as actual facts, just because "somebody else" said it. Check the facts. Ask for the actual source. Patents aren't just somebody. You are just like any somebody. Good luck. Edited November 25, 2013 by Andries Molenaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Chabbat Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) Andries, those informations are relevant because TOLERANCES are at the heart of our debate. When I said "somebody else", I was using your own words when citing the apparent source of Friedemann's statements. Remember : The description of Friedemann is the acurate one. The same understanding of how it works was described here a year ago (or so). By somebody else :) Not me or Friedemann. Now, please, READ the patent, I gave you the link ! Nowhere in it you can find anything about this 0.14mm film channel allowing the film to run free. The patent is not about a film cartridge which works without the need of a pressure plate. It's about a compact film cartridge which allow the film to run smoothly inside, despite the small size. Period. Edited November 25, 2013 by Tom Chabbat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan Umut Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 There are two stop pins. One in use forward and the other for reverse. Easy to feel and see when you move the REW/FOR switch. The one stop pin comes up the other retracts. And reverse of course. Very very few people actually have an idea how these R10 stop pins work. I have looked at my R10, and its service manual, you are absolutely right! One for REW one for FWD. Their system is a basic switch principle. The ratchets are so designed for the direction. But I think they should be not understand as the registration pins, probably for correct film positioning in the gate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedemann Wachsmuth Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) Tom, please read this as a refresher: http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=59680&hl= Please note what two of the best camera technicians we have (Dom & Jean-Louis) are writing there regarding "pressure plate" and "channel forming". If you still don't believe, try it out yourself. In fact the channel seems to be even wider than I remembered from top of my head (~0,2 mm instead of the 0,15 mm I called) -- I'll measure it again later tonight. I think Erkan's numbers look very familiar to the adjustment defaults mentioned in the R10 service manual -- will also check tonight, I got an original version of this. Not sure what "4-year obsessive study with the highly skilled engineers" he is referring to..? Anyway: The "Fluctuation of the focused plane: within 0,025mm" he quotes is quite telling, no? If there would be a pressing pressure plate, there would be no fluctuation of the focal plane. Edited November 25, 2013 by Friedemann Wachsmuth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan Umut Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 These are the applied adjustment tolerances from the maintenance book for R10 R8. These form no information in itself about the the design or functioning. What do you mean Andries? Everything should have tolerances... This means a lot about the the design or functioning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan Umut Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Not sure what "4-year obsessive study with the highly skilled engineers" he is referring to..? It took 4 years to release the R8/10. Japanese have the Monozukuri (to make the things well). We see that not only in cameras, and in the 70s... :) I had shot some with my R8 in Bangkok during the humid season several years ago, the images were so sharp. Of course, Nikon tends to make more contrast lenses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Chabbat Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Remember, the pressure pad is spring loaded. Springs have inertia, so there's always fluctuation. I've read your post. The "gap" Dom is describing is the same "recess" I talk about. When not in front of the aperture, the pressure pad push the film only on the lateral film guides, the said recess allowing the film to not have unnecessary friction when moving. When in front of the aperture, if you look closely, the little area surrounding the aperture is of the same thickness than the film guides, letting the film being placed evenly on the right plane. Never does the film runs freely ! Only Jean Louis talks about this gap, along with another misconception about the side clips function. They are not "grippers" to give the film some resistance, they are springs pushing the film laterally so it can use the opposite film track to limit horizontal movements of the film. Think of it this way : vertical movement is limited by the pull down claw height, horizontal by those clips and depth by the pressure pad. And here you have a 3 dimensional stabilizing system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedemann Wachsmuth Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 It took 4 years to release the R8/10. Aah, that makes sense. :) Thanks for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedemann Wachsmuth Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 And here you have a 3 dimensional stabilizing system. I sincerely apologize, but it feels more and more like having a 3-dimensional troll in front of me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Chabbat Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Really ? That's the only argument you can put ? This is really basic film transport design, you'll find the same design in most of 16mm and 35mm cameras. There's just no justification Kodak engineers would go with something else when there's already simple proven design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Louis Seguin Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 In addition to providing the rear half of the film channel, the "pressure plate" assembly has a secondary role in the super8 film cartridge. When the cartridge is removed from the camera mid-roll, the strong spring pushes the plate forward to pinch the film firmly and forms a tight light seal to prevent film fogging. This is why you only fog approximately 6 or 7 frames, no more. Jean-Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Stevens Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Wow. You guys sure do get technical. :blink: For me all I can say is that after using at least a dozen Super8 cameras my all time favorite is the R10. It was so stupendous in low light conditions that I would make love to it in thanks if I could. :P I had to sell my first R10 a while back to pay a bill and boy was that a mistake. I ended up buying a mint, serviced Canon 1014 XL-S and while I love it, no doubt it goes soft below 2.8 (especially at 1.4) and because it's not built like a tank (the R10 is) I have to be very very very careful with all of those damned plastic knobs. I'll have mine serviced shortly and will ask about having the internal filter removed and the in camera fades, dissolves disabled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heikki Repo Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 A bit OT (or metadiscussion), but ... the good thing about heated conversations is that they show that there are people interested in super-8. Lasse and Tommy haven't sold any cameras yet but apparently they have already been able to energize people and renew interest in this format! ;) Good times for super-8: Vision3 50D, Logmar camera, new Ferrania starting film coating... Now we'd only need some nice compact and affordable machine for doing contact prints from these negs to super-8 positive film with automatic optical audio recording on print from digital files -- and having print film in super-8 available without the large minimum order. Then even those who aren't interested in digital projecting could have the benefits of both this camera sound recording and the look of Vision3 filmstocks! :) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Chabbat Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) When the cartridge is removed from the camera mid-roll, the strong spring pushes the plate forward to pinch the film firmly and forms a tight light seal to prevent film fogging. Now we're talking ! Nice to have you here M. Seguin ! So now, we can all see that the pressure pad effectively push the film a little outside the cartridge when removed, preventing effectively fogging. All of you can see that when you insert the cartridge in the camera, the camera's film gate protrudes INSIDE the cartridge. So the pressure pad effectively rests against when aligned. Now, if you want your film to run freely between this pad and the film guides of the camera's gate, you must have another set of guides, wider than the already mentioned gate's film guides so the pad can rest on them without perturbing the film. Or, when I look to a super 8, I only see film guides, on which the film really rest since their path goes through the pull down claw. I'll try to make a drawing later so everyone can see clearly. Edited November 25, 2013 by Tom Chabbat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan Umut Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) And the Matt's film comes to the end with many applauses! Long live Matt! I wish Nikon would release more cameras in that line or further models like having the Beaulieu and Leicina's latest features. Unfortunately they have stopped making the movie cameras. The R series made for serious amateur filmakers in mind that time. I wish I could have a Nikon R1X (there is no such model) with a folding handgrip and changeable lens system like ZC1000 has... But humans were wishing to carry lightweight items beginning at the middle of 80s, that's why Canon replied with those plastics... Of course, Canon has tanks as well... :) Edited November 25, 2013 by Erkan Umut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Marti Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Wow, a good technical read, for sure! I can only explain my own experiences on the "pressure plate" discussion: Some years ago, when I was doing telecine, I was always surprised with the BIG difference in quality between the 8mm and the super-8 footage. Sure, the K25 stock used in 8mm was the best reversal emulsion ever (specially compared with K40), but the images where so sharp and stable compared with the super-8 ones... And I'm talking about super-8 footage shot with new cameras in the 70's, and 8mm filmed with average cameras and lenses... In the meantime, I owned lots of cameras: Nizos, Bauers, Canons, Leicina... I can't speak about the Leicina because it broke very soon and 5 years later is still on repair, but all those cameras gave irregular results. The best one was the Zeiss Moviflex GS-8, but it can't be repaired anywhere (if you know a place, please let me know). Someday, I tried a Fujica Z800. Wow! What a difference!! Amazing registration and sharpness. I sold my super-8 cameras and never looked back. Now I use also a Fujica ZC-1000 with prime lenses and it's the sharpest footage I've ever seen in 8mm... But what I was actually going to say is: LET THOSE BELLS RING!! A NEW SUPER-8 CAMERA IS ON THE MARKET!!! And it incorporates all the things we have been wanting in a new camera and it's not overpriced! Over-enginereed? Please, give me a break! Can't we just ENJOY and CELEBRATE this moment? This is the best super-8 news in LOTS OF YEARS!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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