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Lasse Roedtnes

"New" super-8 camera to market

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Hi Heikki,

 

 

A few questions regarding the sound recording:

- Is it possible to record audio even when the film is not running?

 

- Would it be possible to have something like 5-10 sec. buffer for sound that would be saved if the filming was started?

 

For documentary shooting this could be beneficial.

 

 

with the current firmware it only records audio to file when it's recording actual film.

monitor audio is always present in the background regardless of recording state - you could record this on a seperate audio recorder although this is not what you are looking for, i know.

 

I will take your idea about audio buffering into consideration for the next firmware release - here's something that could be done "easily" without too much efford. - work flow explained from boot:

 

1. you turn on the camera

2. it starts recording sound only into file "background audio ddmmyyhhmm.ogg" - where ddmmyyhhmm is date/time

3. you press at some point record

4. "background audio.ogg" file is closed and a new file "recording audio.ogg" is started with the actual recording

5. you press stop

6. the "recording audio.ogg" file is closed and a new background audio file is started

.... process repeats itself....

 

this has the advantage that you can take what every audio you like from background audio (anything from 1second priort to recording to x minutes)

 

Best regards

Lasse

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To answer the OP's question, what would I pay? I think I'd pay over $2K.... if I could afford it (which I can't). To me, it'd be worth it. However, if the price were under $1500 or close to $1K, I think I would find a way to gather the funds.

 

Kudos to your courage and ingenuity!

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The widened Super-8 has been around long before someone started calling it Max8 and claiming it as an 'invention'.

 

 

I fully agree with your statement, Andries. As usual, it doesn't take long for the sharks to start circling around the victim....

 

Jean-Louis

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"Holy Crap". Indeed!

 

I can't wait to see some shot footage. As a colourist with over 20 years experience I know just how good S8 can look.

 

As a 40 something who loves old stuff I must say that in its present form it looks rather soulless. It could do with a higher quality look; and needs to be very resistant to wear.

 

Perhaps with further development a more portable version for hand held shooting could be offered. As is I think it would be difficult to use for the traditional pop promo type shooting.

 

As a potential customer in the rental market I would be looking for an affordable price but not so cheap that everyone had a camera in the boot of their car.

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I am intrigued. Very. And a bit stunned. I fully expect to wake up from a dream.

 

Will the lens be centered with the fully 'wide' portion of the film so that we do not have the off center capture of current gate widening techniques? One issue with that is the gates for many scanner won't be equipped to scan the full image and it could scan off center. Have you kept that in mind?

 

Good grief, this is exciting. Seriously, truly exciting.

Edited by Matt Stevens

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Based on the pictures alone, I would say outstanding work!

With an obvious nod to the Mekel Cine-8.

 

Jean-Louis

Yes, it looks like VIC SP-1 Cine-8 by Visual Instrumentation Corp. (the original manufacturer Mekel Engineering).

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Hi Matt,

 

Will the lens be centered with the fully 'wide' portion of the film so that we do not have the off center capture of current gate widening techniques? One issue with that is the gates for many scanner won't be equipped to scan the full image and it could scan off center. Have you kept that in mind?

 

This camera was designed from ground-up so this has been taken into account ;)

 

/Lasse

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Hi Lasse,

 

Great effort!

 

Any provision for a magazine mount for bulk stocks (as Germans call it Meterware) around 250ft?

That would be fine for that type camera (on top). Needs a clever solution for the carrying handle.

 

Design the SD card an individual plug-in block, so in future it can be adapted for other card systems. And think the people who want still double system sound. Place it on a proper place in the design as the other formats might require larger in size block.

 

Change the battery place, it will unnecessarily make it long in width. Take the battery on bottom. In the colder places it will help to keep the cold away.

 

Make the overall design rounded on the edges, it should not need to look liket a digicam. Always think of future possibilities, the parts of new tech add-ons should be replaceable for the investing customers.

 

Please do not forget the handgrip attachment connected to the body.

 

More could come, if you wish...

 

[FYI, Who am I? I am a Turkish poop teaching the Japanese the Japanese cinematographic equipment. This is just the only one example. Believe it or not.]

Edited by Erkan Umut

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The shutter should open up to 180° max. no need for an XL 220/230° shutter as it really causes unnecessary more stroboscopic effects, and today's high speed films are well tolerated as latitude and grain, and people likes more film style grainy effects, as well as noise reduction is at its best today.

Don't use the beam splitter for the video output (don't sacrifice the geometric apertures by applying the photometric apertures), use mirror shutter positioned at 45° with focal plane blades. Needs a more place for the shutter than the beam-splitter prism thou.

For the shallow depth of field for overcoming the Super 8 small diameter you may use an optical compensation...

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Hi Erkan,

 

Any provision for a magazine mount for bulk stocks (as Germans call it Meterware) around 250ft?

That would be fine for that type camera (on top). Needs a clever solution for the carrying handle.

 

The camera only supports standard kodak cassettes - it's impossible for us to change this at this stage of development.

 

Design the SD card an individual plug-in block, so in future it can be adapted for other card systems. And think the people who want still double system sound. Place it on a proper place in the design as the other formats might require larger in size block

 

Actually the camera has provision for internal storage for audio as well - originally we didn't know if we wanted to have SD-CARD and all the R&D hassle it brings along - we have the USB port so we could have made the camera appear as a harddrive in windows/linux/mac from which you could fetch the sound and log files but we decided against this and went with the SD-CARD.

 

Change the battery place, it will unnecessarily make it long in width. Take the battery on bottom. In the colder places it will help to keep the cold away

 

The battery acts as a counter balance for the camera so it resides where it is for a purpose other than powering. Because our camera is very energy efficient the battery doesnt get hot - we also wanted to use an industry standard camera battery - we didn't want to invent our own battery casing.

 

Make the overall design rounded on the edges, it should not need to look liket a digicam. Always think of future possibilities, the parts of new tech add-ons should be replaceable for the investing customers

 

As mentioned it's our first prototype (the casing that is) - the aluminium casing you see cost us close to 7.000$ in tooling and setup costs to have custom made at a metal factory if we wanted to deviate too much from our initial design we would have to pay new tooling costs which at present time is not an option for us.

 

Please do not forget the handgrip attachment connected to the body.

 

It's possible to attach a standard handgrip underneath the camera - we do not supply one however.

 

Don't use the beam splitter for the video output (don't sacrifice the geometric apertures by applying the photometric apertures), use mirror shutter positioned at 45° with focal plane blades. Needs a more place for the shutter than the beam-splitter prism thou.

For the shallow depth of field for overcoming the Super 8 small diameter you may use an optical compensation...

 

Our shutter is an oscillating mirror (please read original post and explanations further up)

the beamsplitter is use solely because we want to add light meter functionality - if this was not a requirement the beam splitter would not be needed.

 

Best regards

Lasse

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Our shutter is an oscillating mirror (please read original post and explanations further up)

the beamsplitter is use solely because we want to add light meter functionality - if this was not a requirement the beam splitter would not be needed.

 

Many thanks for all your explanations. I am so excited!

 

I don't understand why you have to use the beamsplitter for a built-in metering?

 

Mostly cameras used to utilize a focal plane disk shutter and a beamsplitter for reflex viewing (20% loss for the VF) for a simpler and minimum spacing design like Bolexes.

 

eclair acl uses an oscillating mirror for reflex viewing while a focal one (175°) for exposing, very quiet indeed. Most Panaflexes use a butterfly shutter for reflex viewing while a focal one for exposing, too. Both use disk shutters for exposing.

 

The butterfly ones for exposure and viewing having two blades like in 16S (St) and Krasnogorsk, etc. reducing the shutter shaft rpm time cuts to half down.

 

post-11450-0-90927300-1376828578_thumb.jpg I like the one on the right.

 

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Ohh sorry, I misunderstood the oscillating mirror you mean, its a rotary mirror. So you don't utilize a beamsplitter prism...

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HOLY **CK!

 

As I see the monitor is 16:9, what lens did you put on it? Is it anamorphic, or is it a filed/opened gate as with Max8? With an anamorphic lens, you'd take care of both the optical irregularities caused by the fact there was never *SUPPOSED* to be any exposure on that part of the film, and of the fact that many telecine houses ain't prepared to scan from Max8, but it would make the lens much more expensive and people would obviously be dependent on you for interchangeable lenses for different occasions.

 

In any case, it would be interesting to know more about that lens. Anamorphic or "Max8"-derivative? Is it interchangeable, and if so, what mount? What's the brand and widest aperture? Is it fixed at one focal length, or is it zoom, and if so, what focal length(s) does it cover (please add 35mm equivalents)?

 

Does the monitor compensate for f-stop setting and film sensitivity (as read out by cart notches)? What you also need on this thing is a DC input.

 

Is the price of around 5,000 Euros quoted by somebody above anything to go by for the finished product?

 

And I agree with people here, the whole thing needs a design overhaul as a finishing touch to make it look less than just a metal scrap box.

Edited by Benjamin Dietze

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Oh, and does the sound recording feature compensate for irregular camera speed? Just taking start and stop points won't help you much if the camera didn't run at exactly 18fps (or 24fps, or whatever) all the time.

 

Speaking of framerates, what will the camera offer? 18 and 24fps should be obvious (at current stock prices, I sure would hardly ever use 24fps), but what about timelapse and slo-mo? And I guess some freaks may even want 25 (for 1:1 telecine on PAL), 50 (for 50p), 60 (for 60p), or even 30fps.

Edited by Benjamin Dietze

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With respect to the design, I do not seem bad to look like a Leicina. The most important thing will be the final price of the product.

Edited by Jose luis villar

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And speaking even more of framerates, I gotta say there's really something to say for the intuitiveness of rotating mechanic knobs that go *CLICK!* when changing a setting, rather than just a fluid electronic wheel. Modern video cameras with the latter were really not designed by DOPs or camera operators but by ivory towers engineers, where you can all-too-easily change a setting without noticing, and you're constantly forced to search for hours inside a digital menu for a simple setting.

 

It's why I liked the Canon XLS2, it had those mechanic clicking knobs on the outside for things such as framerates, which gave it the feel of a real film camera in that respect. The knobs wouldn't have to be much mechanic on the inside in their handling of settings, all I need is outside knobs that show you at a glance what everything is set to, that require a little force to change a setting, and that audibly go *CLICK!* upon a change.

Edited by Benjamin Dietze

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Hi Benjamin,

 

Please read the original post - it answers most of your questions :)

 

As I see the monitor is 16:9, what lens did you put on it? Is it anamorphic, or is it a filed/opened gate as with Max8? With an anamorphic lens, you'd take care of both the optical irregularities caused by the fact there was never *SUPPOSED* to be any exposure on that part of the film, and of the fact that many telecine houses ain't prepared to scan from Max8, but it would make the lens much more expensive and people would obviously be dependent on you for interchangeable lenses for different occasions

 

The monitor is 16:9 - the viewfinder is standard 4:3 - it's possible to set the monitor to 4:3 as well right now the monitor streaches 4:3 to 16:9 but this is a setting on the Lilliput not our camera.

 

The gate is widened like Max8 - but is aligned to the "new center"

 

The camera has standard C-mount so it can be used with any lens of this mount type.

 

The monitor doesnt do anything except provide viewfinding with overlaid information on light meter, fps etc.

 

Does the monitor compensate for f-stop setting and film sensitivity (as read out by cart notches)? What you also need on this thing is a DC input.

 

There's no DC input - there was originally but we opted against it after finding that a single battery can sustain several hours of operation.

 

Is the price of around 5,000 Euros quoted by somebody above anything to go by for the finished product?

 

It will retail way cheaper than your mentioned 5,000€ price tag - how much depends on how many we produce first off.

 

Oh, and does the sound recording feature compensate for irregular camera speed? Just taking start and stop points won't help you much if the camera didn't run at exactly 18fps (or 24fps, or whatever) all the time

 

The camera is fully synchronized so regardless of operational speed the audio will be consistant.

 

Regards

Lasse

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The problem with Max8 gates is not the viewfinder, it's the fact that that part of the film is often not manufactured to the same standards as the 4:3 area, after all there never was *SUPPOSED* to be any exposure on that side of the film from Kodak's point of view.

 

And great news to hear that the audio will adjust, and that the price tag will be even far less! smile.png Now, what about the other lens properties, and the provided framerates?

Edited by Benjamin Dietze

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With respect to the design, I do not seem bad to look like a Leicina. The most important thing will be the final price of the product.

 

 

When the things are getting bigger the shapes will be more obvious. Leicina is smaller of course. Please don't give the samples like ASKANIA and Debrie cameras or the wooden box cameras. Of course, we cinematographers are forced to work with shoe boxes nowadays despite the build quality is perfect like ALEXA or SONY F55 because of electronics are used to be the same geometrically.

If everybody thinks of its price important, there would be no camera shapes we love esthetically today. Some people might not want to work with an esthetically bad thing after investing a lot of money... Say you have a latest generation Mercedes in a shape of Lada Samara. What you think? Why do many people buy classical or modern redesigned VW Bettles?...

Edited by Erkan Umut

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I think that the most important in the sale of a new camera S8 is their reliability, that works well and not problems. The video display for me is secondary, if I want to shoot a serious work with much production and the client on my back, I will do it in digital. This is only my thoughts.

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Okay, after having just heard of this awesome news a few minutes ago via Facebook (where we were linked right to the post on page 3 with all the photos), I'm now reading the entire thread from the start!

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