Tired of hearing "Film is Dead?" Well So Are We!

[Alan Rencher]

FYI - I've just banned the Christopher Sheneman account.

 

Thanks, Tim!

 

I don't even know why anyone was responding to those comments made by that account. Obvious troll.

 

I actually have never shot on film. I waited and finally went back to school in 2008, and it was basically just a trade school. We had video cameras, that's it. By the time I started working professionally, the Red One was already taking hold, and the 5D was replacing DOF adapters. I do look forward to finally shooting on film. In highschool, I used to shoot 35mm stills and develop them in our dark room. I really loved that process as much, if not more than creating sculptures, screen printing, etc.

 

I do plan on shooting some of my projects on film in the near future. I will make it happen, and I will enjoy the process as I used to enjoy the process of film photography.

 

And as far as shooting projects that have little artistic value, and provide a pay-check: I do that, too. It beats a 9-5 job, and who says that you don't get anything out of the experience? I challange myself on every project, and I walk away learning new things all the time. If I make enough money, I can use that to fund my own art projects. It's a great life.

[KH Martin]

 

Last I checked there were hundreds of "film schools" across the nation now, and the supermajority fo them teach their students on either SONY or Canon L-series cameras. I didn't even know anyone was still making 16mm film, much less shooting on it.

There's a site called shotonwhat.com that might be of use to you, if not of interest.

[KH Martin]

 

Ha! You should have picked a different restaurant because McDonald's is delicious. Extra value menu? I think so!

Nobodies talking about McDonald's you say? Au contraire homey slice- people are talking about the McDonald's experience here..

https://www.facebook.com/McDonalds

Over

29,243,320 likes

and

 

156,465 talking

Numbers don't lie. A billion served - must be because nobody likes the food.

 

 

That's like saying TITANIC and AVATAR are the greatest movies ever made ... your argument is for volume, not quality. I haven't eaten meat since 1987, but I can tell you that I was a ravenous meat-eater up till that point ... and yet I stopped going to McDonald's over a decade prior to that as a teen, just on the basis it didn't even seem to be food except technically. I'll stick with Harlan Ellison's descrip of McDonald's offerings being 'toadburgers' that probably cause brain damage.

 

EDIT ADDON: sorry, only just read down to page 4, didn't realize I was talking to a ghost.

Edited July 31, 2013 by KH Martin

[David Nethery]

 

Last I checked there were hundreds of "film schools" across the nation now, and the supermajority fo them teach their students on either SONY or Canon L-series cameras. I didn't even know anyone was still making 16mm film, much less shooting on it.

 

 

For the record, the school I teach at , The Academy of Art University , still uses film (Super 8 mm, 16mm , 35mm) in the School of Motion Picture & Television . They use HD digital cameras, too, of course.

 

http://www.academyart.edu/webcheckout/equipment.html

 

 

(by the way, I'm not in the MPT dept. I teach in the Animation dept. at AAU. We teach traditional drawn animation/digital drawn animation, stop-motion , and CG animation (character animation and VFX animation ) .

[David Cunningham]

There is no doubt that film is dead as the defacto medium for motion picture image capture. The vast majority of motion picture capture is done in digital.

 

We are in that painful transition period where film is becoming a niche artist medium. I liked the the previous comments about an artist with paints or clays. These days, it's much easier for an artist to draw on a computer screen or create a sculpture with a 3D printer. Hopefully, like clays and oil paints, there will always be film for us all to use as an artist medium.

 

The only way to save it is to shoot it. Shoot it and then shoot more. Even if you just shoot home movies, weddings and the occasional short like me, keep it going. We are the ones that will keep it alive. It won't be Hollywood or any other big money machine. It will be those of us that love what it does for us and gives to others.

 

It will get more and more expensive and turn more and more heads. Eventually the dust will settle and we'll have a good idea of how sustainable it is and at what price. Hopefully it will be something we can all afford AND the quality will remain.

 

Shoot film everyone!

[James Steven Beverly]

There is no doubt that film is dead as the defacto medium for motion picture image capture. The vast majority of motion picture capture is done in digital.

 

We are in that painful transition period where film is becoming a niche artist medium. I liked the the previous comments about an artist with paints or clays. These days, it's much easier for an artist to draw on a computer screen or create a sculpture with a 3D printer. Hopefully, like clays and oil paints, there will always be film for us all to use as an artist medium.

 

The only way to save it is to shoot it. Shoot it and then shoot more. Even if you just shoot home movies, weddings and the occasional short like me, keep it going. We are the ones that will keep it alive. It won't be Hollywood or any other big money machine. It will be those of us that love what it does for us and gives to others.

 

It will get more and more expensive and turn more and more heads. Eventually the dust will settle and we'll have a good idea of how sustainable it is and at what price. Hopefully it will be something we can all afford AND the quality will remain.

 

Shoot film everyone!

I disagree and agree completely. MOST feature films with a decent budget are shot on film and the only way to protest bad image quality is by shooting film whenever reasonably possible.

[James Steven Beverly]

Certainly let me know if you wind up in SM James, I can probably skip down there for a drink or two.

 

 

As for actors, as Pat mentioned, sometimes non-actors can work. I know in my distinguished directing career (lol) in film school the 3 movies I made all used a non actor, and good friend of mine. It worked the best out of the bunch, but that's just because I knew him and when I wrote the things that freshman year, I wrote it so that he well, firstly, woudln't have to say anything, and secondly, just had the same mannerisms he always had. I am sure, if I ever were to direct again (very unlikely) , and wanted to get performances out of non-actors I'd go the same route; looking for folks who just "are," for lack of a better way of saying it.

 

My only major caveat to David's animation mention is that with film specifically as a medium, you are dealing with a company which makes a product which needs to be sold in order to make it work.

I look forward to it, sir. As for your comments, NON-actors can work, but it's more the exception by a LARGE margin than the rule. Look what you're trying to do is put a "real" person in an unreal world with no way to navigate that world. IF you're a skilled enough director with the right talents to find the emotional elements within the person playing the part, it can be as strong as a professional, but again it's very much the exception which doesn't mean it can't be done. It worked in "The Salt of the Earth" (1954), shot in Mexico, written by Michael Wilson, directed by Herbert Biberman and produced byPaul Jarrico who had been "blacklisted" which means there were no longer allowed to work in the film industry or pretty much anywhere else due to their alleged involvement with supposed communist political organizations by the House Un-American Activities Committee which was created in 1938 to investigate alleged disloyalty and subversive activities on the part of private citizens, public employees, and those organizations suspected of having Communist ties........ANOTHER one of America's finest hours <_<. ALSO there was "Precious" (2009) starring non-actor Gabourey Sidibe 'War Witch" (2013) where the main character was played by Rachel Mwanza, a young girl with NO experience what so ever so it CAN be done, but you're smimming up stream. Peter Bogdanovich told me when he was directing Cybill Shepherd in "The Last Picture Show" (1971), he often resorted to giving her line readings to get what he wanted. Cybill was a model, not an actress BUT she could take direction and her performance as well as Bogdanovich's direction was wonderful. I've, PERSONALLY, directed several people that were non-actors, generally speaking, it usually slows things way down. I've been an actor since I was six and when I was 8, I played Claudius in "Hamlet" (which is STILL my favorite Shakespearean play)....we had a very progressive educational regiment in Wyoming. I stared directing in the eighth grade and have been around show folk my entire life. I LOVE actors. I understand them. I enjoy working with them and find magic in what they can bring to life in the role, how they can create something within a character I wrote that I had never even thought of before. When you have the right actor in the right role, your job almost dwindles down to watching them work in awe and remembering to say cut. It takes hard work, good instincts and unwavering dedication to get to that point but again, IF you're shooting without a budget, you work with what you got and every once in a while THAT can be magic....but those moments are far and few between.

[George Ebersole]

 

 

For the record, the school I teach at , The Academy of Art University , still uses film (Super 8 mm, 16mm , 35mm) in the School of Motion Picture & Television . They use HD digital cameras, too, of course.

 

http://www.academyart.edu/webcheckout/equipment.html

 

 

(by the way, I'm not in the MPT dept. I teach in the Animation dept. at AAU. We teach traditional drawn animation/digital drawn animation, stop-motion , and CG animation (character animation and VFX animation ) .

 

Well, I didn't say all schools. I was working for or a guy by the name of Rob Nilsson http://citizencinema.net/9-at-night/

a couple years back, and he wanted me to ship out either a bunch of demo reels on DVD or some kind of promo package for his company to film schools across the US, and I thought to myself "USC, UCLA, SFSU and NYU...what's to know?" So, I double checked by doing a quick search, and it's like every JC and State college all over the United States had a "film program". *EDIT* And nearly every single last one of them were training their students on Canon L-series prosumer gear.

 

At SF State it was 16mm if you got into the "core" program (your super-8 film had to pass muster at film finals); which taught you about gripping, lighting, camera ops on a 16mm Bolex and all kinds of things about production. My emphasis was in screenwriting because I was already gripping, interning, being a PA and what not in the local industry.

 

Having said that, I still don't know how to load a film magazine, in spite of all the times I've been around Arris and Panaflex stuff. Call me pathetic, bu that's just the way things turned out.

[Freya Black]

 

Thanks, Tim!

 

I don't even know why anyone was responding to those comments made by that account. Obvious troll.

 

I think theres a bit of a tradition here of trying to give people a chance, and I've found myself surprised in the past where a few young posters pulled themselves together and contributed in a more positive way. It did seem unlikely in this case tho.

 

I was also quite curious about why the fellow was so angry and where all that was coming from. I rarely saw a positive post from him. Of course theres a lot to be angry about in this world but my pet theory for a long time was that he must also be based in the UK, possibly even in Wales. However the postings in this thread seem to indicate that he was a somewhat privileged American kid. I hope he gets over whatever is bothering him.

 

Having said all that I have hovered over the report button on 2 occasions and had reached that point where I was like "just one more time...". He was also interesting in that he seemed to have a good idea of exactly how far he could push it and barely get away with it.

 

I think most people here are made of strong stuff and I've been impressed how some people have brushed off nasty comments from him. Having said that I don't like attacks of a personal nature, and I think it's something we should start drawing the line on from here out. It's one thing to disagree with someones cinematography choices and another to attack them as a person.

 

So probably we should use the report button more in such cases, especially if we are genuine about wanting to get things back on track here.

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

...On a more positive note, he did make me laugh a couple of times... especially when he was more enthusiastic about things, and I like the fact that there are plenty of posters here with a sense of humor, I find it helps a lot in life when things get bad.

 

The time had come tho...

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

And as far as shooting projects that have little artistic value, and provide a pay-check: I do that, too. It beats a 9-5 job, and who says that you don't get anything out of the experience? I challange myself on every project, and I walk away learning new things all the time. If I make enough money, I can use that to fund my own art projects. It's a great life.

 

I think it's perfectly normal and we have all done it, sometimes it's the boring corporate stuff that subsidises the more interesting work. Personally I'd be over the moon to work on something like "2 headed shark attack", esp if it was shooting on 35mm. I'm actually toying with the idea of shooting something Ed Wood style on Super16 at some point in the future in fact, and that's with my own money! lol!

 

That aside, you do what you have to do to survive. That's what the real world is like.

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

It worked in "The Salt of the Earth" (1954), shot in Mexico, written by Michael Wilson, directed by Herbert Biberman and produced byPaul Jarrico who had been "blacklisted" which means there were no longer allowed to work in the film industry or pretty much anywhere else due to their alleged involvement with supposed communist political organizations by the House Un-American Activities Committee which was created in 1938 to investigate alleged disloyalty and subversive activities on the part of private citizens, public employees, and those organizations suspected of having Communist ties........ANOTHER one of America's finest hours .

 

 

I've seen that movie! :)

On a battered old 16mm print! You could barely make out the dialogue.

 

For a moment there I thought you were saying you had worked on that movie and I was impressed at all kinds of levels. :)

It's a good movie but I suspect it's not that easy to get to see, even these days!

 

Freya

[Mark Dunn]

 

I was also quite curious about why the fellow was so angry and where all that was coming from. I rarely saw a positive post from him. Of course theres a lot to be angry about in this world but my pet theory for a long time was that he must also be based in the UK, possibly even in Wales.

 

 

Wales has a certain reputation in some quarters but it's worth having a look round

Try Newport; it's got a wonderful transporter bridge over the Usk and, at the Newport end, an equally magnificent Victorian pub, the Waterloo Hotel. No real ale but a jaw-dropping tiled interior.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Mark Dunn

[Freya Black]

 

Wales has a certain reputation in some quarters but it's worth having a look round

Try Newport; it's got a wonderful transporter bridge over the Usk and, at the Newport end, an equally magnificent Victorian pub, the Waterloo Hotel. No real ale but a jaw-dropping tiled interior.

 

I'm sure, but there is actually quite a high suicide rate in certain parts of Wales.

Like a lot of the UK it's been through a lot and is still recovering.

 

Good luck to it.

 

Freya

[James Steven Beverly]

 

I've seen that movie! :)

On a battered old 16mm print! You could barely make out the dialogue.

 

For a moment there I thought you were saying you had worked on that movie and I was impressed at all kinds of levels. :)

It's a good movie but I suspect it's not that easy to get to see, even these days!

 

Freya

LOL, hey come on! I'm not THAT old!! I first saw it on TCM. Good movie, especially for what they had to work with. Did you ever see Jeff Goldblum in "One of the Hollywood Ten" (2000)? Good movie about the making of that film and other things. If not, you should check it out!!

Edited July 31, 2013 by James Steven Beverly

[Stuart Brereton]

 

I think it's perfectly normal and we have all done it, sometimes it's the boring corporate stuff that subsidises the more interesting work. Personally I'd be over the moon to work on something like "2 headed shark attack", esp if it was shooting on 35mm.

For the record, 2 Headed Shark was shot on Red MX. It was shot in 12 days with a mostly very inexperienced cast. I make no excuses for it - it's a B movie at best. It paid the bills, it allowed me to spend 3 weeks in the Florida Keys with some great people, and I had a lot of fun doing it. What more should I ask from a job?

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Cold beer at the end, and coffee every day on the set.

 

Good job on it Stuart. Nothing wrong with B Movies in the least.

[Brian Drysdale]

For the record, 2 Headed Shark was shot on Red MX. It was shot in 12 days with a mostly very inexperienced cast. I make no excuses for it - it's a B movie at best. It paid the bills, it allowed me to spend 3 weeks in the Florida Keys with some great people, and I had a lot of fun doing it. What more should I ask from a job?

 

Tough job shooting a feature on a deadline like that. Fun is a reason for doing something.

[George Ebersole]

Please don't associate my living in Pasadena with the industry. . . . Though it supposedly worked for Wally Pfister.

 

I too have done quite a few shoots which are nowhere near high art (such as "thinking putty," which was just silly putty with other stuff in it, as well as countless music videos and infomercials and cooking shows. High art, no. But you learn some things you can apply later on. Especially when you're working without the appropriate budget)

 

Sorry Adrian, I didn't mean to . It's just what I heard on the news back in the late 90s. I don't know if things have changed down there or now, but the whole San Fernando Valley seems to be one of that industrie's epi-centers.

 

I'll work an Apple or Intel industrial any day.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

I was just joking George. Sorry should've added in a ;) and a nod.

 

Though honestly, living in Pasadena, I don't see quite how there could be much of that 'round here. The lawns are all too manicured. Then again, what do I know.

[David Nethery]

I liked the the previous comments about an artist with paints or clays. These days, it's much easier for an artist to draw on a computer screen or create a sculpture with a 3D printer.

 

 

I disagree. (and I say that as someone who works almost every day in digital animation programs , drawing with a Wacom Cintiq tablet ) . Not easier, not necessarily better , but sometimes digital is the right tool for the job . Sometimes traditional media is the right tool for the job.

 

In animation production you save time on the back-end by not having to scan hundreds or thousands of drawings , but for ease of use and accuracy it's hard to beat the precision of the human hand drawing with pencil or ink on paper. Pencil on paper isn't broken , it's not a 'problem' that had to to be overcome with digital drawing tools. My experience is that students learn foundational principles better with traditional media , then when they truly understand what it takes to get a good image in pencil, pastel, oil paint , or watercolor, etc. they can adapt to using digital apps like TVPaint, ArtRage, Photoshop, or Sketchbook Pro to accurately mimic that look in digital . But you can't really do a good job imitating the look of paint on canvas if you don't KNOW what real paint on canvas is supposed to look like .

 

In animation much of the push towards totally digital paperless production (for drawn "2D" animation) is being driven by the agenda of production managers and producers who find it easier and more expedient for them to track and store digital images (and share those files with artists working in out-source service studios overseas) . Companies like Wacom want to sell hardware so they are also pushing the idea that digital is always faster, better , cheaper than traditional drawn animation . But that's not necessarily so.

[Chris Millar]

For the record, 2 Headed Shark was shot on Red MX. It was shot in 12 days with a mostly very inexperienced cast. I make no excuses for it - it's a B movie at best. It paid the bills, it allowed me to spend 3 weeks in the Florida Keys with some great people, and I had a lot of fun doing it. What more should I ask from a job?

Yeah!

 

Was going to mention that if no one had any pretence of it being anything more than it was then sounds like a hoot - hard work on occasion as per usual but that often just leads to building new friendships even faster.

[Chris Millar]

David, the company I'm currently working for does 1:1 scale animatronics (huge stuff though, think dinosaurs) until recently many designs were sculpted in clay, then 3D scanned, then worked on in zBrush/maya etc...

 

The jobs I'm working on at the moment either had been designed already so that step was dropped, but it's nice to know that in one of the instances the original design was formed in copper over 100 years ago ;)

[George Ebersole]

For you shark movie fans;

[Carl Looper]

Film died thirty years ago on the precise day that news cameramen replaced their 16mm cameras with video. That was the day that film died. It would be decades later before this news would reach Hollywood.

 

So to those who keep predicting that the death of film is sometime next week - wake up - it's been dead for thirty years.

 

What has been happening ever since that day has been two histories - the use of film by those who didn't know it was dead, and the use by those who enjoy and appreciate it's beauty, power and history.