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Independant Movie on Kickstarter


Abdullah AbuMahfouz

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I too am interested in hearing more from Richard on the subject!

I've asked him about it before and he told me that the secret to his success was having a dog theme in each movie!

There it is. I've let the cat out of the bag now. (Oh hang on...??)

 

Anyway I'd love to hear more about the funding. I understand the first film was self funded and then the second was made for a company but I'm not sure how "Against the wild" is being funded so far? Are you putting up the funds Richard? How does it all work?

 

I assume the movie is being targeted at the international television market?

 

Freya

Edited by Freya Black
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No I don't provide any funding myself. And yes, ATW, is heavily targeting the world TV market.

 

R,

 

So can you talk about how it was funded, and if not, can you give us some tips in more general terms! :)

 

Freya

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Oh yes, I want to hear this too, then we can evaluate just how exactly "targeting the world TV market" really means "my brother-in-law works for Big Film Distro, Inc."

 

But this isn't in the UK Phil!

 

Freya

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Oh yes, I want to hear this too, then we can evaluate just how exactly "targeting the world TV market" really means "my brother-in-law works for Big Film Distro, Inc."

 

No, I have no personal relationships inside any of the large distributors. I can tell you, you'll be seeing it in the UK soon enough! All of my contacts come about the same way they always do, networking.

 

Interestingly enough, neither Lucas, Spielberg, or Cameron, were born into any sort of "movie families." They all broke in on their own. James Cameron is from Kapuskasing Ontario (ever hear of it Phil?). Now he holds the record for highest and second highest grossing movies of all time. Your explanation for that is???????????????

 

R,

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So can you talk about how it was funded, and if not, can you give us some tips in more general terms! :)

 

Freya

 

Obviously I can't discuss the exact funding model used for this production. Essentially in Canada we use a combination of government funds, (available to all filmmakers not just some rich elite class that Phil seems to imagine exists out there), equity, and pre-sales. All of which is typically cash flowed by one of the two majors banks here that has a film lending program. A film lending program that is open to anyone who can qualify, same as any other banking i.e. car loan, mortgage, etc.

 

R,

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Obviously I can't discuss the exact funding model used for this production. Essentially in Canada we use a combination of government funds, (available to all filmmakers not just some rich elite class that Phil seems to imagine exists out there), equity, and pre-sales. All of which is typically cash flowed by one of the two majors banks here that has a film lending program. A film lending program that is open to anyone who can qualify, same as any other banking i.e. car loan, mortgage, etc.

 

R,

 

By government funds you mean tax credits or something more?

 

Freya

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Now he holds the record for highest and second highest grossing movies of all time. Your explanation for that is?

 

If you list a nonzero number of people by any statistic, someone will be at the top of the list.

 

But in all seriousness, let's not hold the rock stars up as a reasonable example of career goals. This is, once again, the Rodriguez gambit. These very high levels of achievement are so microscopically unlikely to occur that it's ridiculous to assume that a course of action leading to them can be predetermined. You can't plan for mega-stardom. I'm not interested in that. I don't think anyone on this forum has a realistic desire or expectation of joining any sort of A-list. Anyone who does is a fantasist.

 

Let's not get distracted. The issue is that you've criticised people for failing to use methods that are acceptable to you to find funding for film production. I don't know what qualifies you to judge what is and isn't morally correct in that regard, but I don't see why publicising a kickstarter here is a problem. If you wanted to be particularly unpleasant about it, you could characterise it as begging from the public, which makes some people uncomfortable, but you could say the same about taking money from the government. This is also begging from the public, just in more expensive shoes.

 

And nobody begs when they don't have to. You've repeatedly stated that there are other, better ways to do this, although you don't say why they're better, and when it comes down to specifics... oh, right, it's a secret.

 

So, facts. It remains the case that no bank, under any circumstances, will lend to a producer without an enormous track record, recognisable cast members, a well-known director, and/or many other important factors which are available only to established and well-connected people. The banks are correct to do this as they would otherwise lose enormous amounts of money on projects with near-zero chances of even being distributed, let alone making money. You and I both know that actually selling independent film is effectively impossible. Government support to film production is based on factors which in themselves cost enormous amounts of money and ensure only multimillion-dollar productions need apply.

 

Ultimately I can register a Phil Films as a limited liability entity tomorrow, find a script, find a director, and be at my bank by the end of the week asking them for money. There is a one hundred per cent categorical certainty that they will refuse, as they quite properly should. Regardless of the ability of the cast and crew, even if every one of them is a latent undiscovered genius, it is also a very near certainty that such a production, even if made, will not be sold, will not be distributed, and will not make any money. Everyone knows this. This is not new or controversial information.

 

So what exactly would you suggest, if you're the expert?

 

P

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Abdulla,

 

I don't mean to be disrespectfull or discouraging. This amount of money is very small. If this was all that you needed to go ahead and make the film, why not just earn it yourself. Take a night job and save the money. Maybe Kickstarter here is giving some experience of how films may be funded in the future, but in practical terms, with this small amount of money, I just feel you are creating a fantasy obstacle.

 

Fasbinder used to start shooting his films before he secured finance. With a $1500 budget, why not you.

 

Good luck.

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And nobody begs when they don't have to. You've repeatedly stated that there are other, better ways to do this, although you don't say why they're better, and when it comes down to specifics... oh, right, it's a secret.

 

Why don't I just post the entire finance plan, bank closing documents, full budget, all cast and crew deal memos, and my last three years of tax refunds. How would that be for you? Clearly you can see a problem here.

 

This is not producing school, and what are you expecting me to do, type out step by step how to finance a movie? People actually go to producing programs to learn this stuff. You honestly think I can explain to everyone on this forum how to produce and sell a movie by typing it out in posts? Should I also explain how to write, direct, and edit it as well? I also do that.

 

I'm just giving some general producing tips for people who want to know or are new to the process. I can't be expected to give a 3-4 week seminars on the subject. I'm saying I learned, and so can others. There are tons of books and course on the subject. AFM offers training every year. Lot's of people sign up for the seminars.

 

As for Kickstarter.....I said I was opposed to it, yes. I also said that people are free to choose what they wish to do with their money, and also said I didn't think it was appropriate to ask fellow film workers to contribute hard earned cash to projects. That is my opinion, it is not your opinion, fine.

 

R,

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By government funds you mean tax credits or something more?

 

Freya

 

In Canada it can be tax credits, TeleFilm finance, and regional grants that go into film. I have never accessed TeleFilm funding but I have accessed other funds for Ontario residents. Keep in mind, none of these provide a 100% finance for a movie. The trick in Canada is to stitch together financing from 5-10 different sources and pool them all together. Each piece represents only a percentage of the budget, not all of it. For example TeleFilm's max is 49% of the budget. And they usually don't go that high.

 

Against The Wild was made with 13 different pieces of financing. All of which I had to string together and close.

 

Hollywood can offer the huge advantage of one stop shopping for financing. This is where I might actually agree with Phil, this type of financing is of course the hardest to get. But there are so many other film finance entities out there now. Several banks do gap financing at very high levels. Although once you get into these sorts of deals you really need to know what you're doing and you would need to have experience as a producer.

 

Now Phil will jump in and say, see I told you so!!! My point is that you can start with the banks with a small deal, and work your way up to larger deals. The same as you would in ANY other industry. Pilots don't walk out of flight school and start flying the 747 the next day,

 

R,

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Oh yes, I want to hear this too, then we can evaluate just how exactly "targeting the world TV market" really means "my brother-in-law works for Big Film Distro, Inc."

"Big Film Distro, Inc."!!!! DO NOT use those guys, they SUCK. BTW Phil, have YOU ever looked at using pre-sales and backs to finance any films you've made? How about state film incentives? What would YOU do to help augment the financing of your feature film? Have you ever tried to make a feature film?

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You honestly think I can explain to everyone on this forum how to produce and sell a movie by typing it out in posts?

 

You're the guy who said it was simple. You're the guy who was admonishing people for not doing it. Make your mind up.

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BTW Phil, have YOU ever looked at using pre-sales and backs to finance any films you've made?

 

No, because I'm more than aware that those things are not available to me. Why would they be?

 

 

 

How about state film incentives?

 

In this part of the world, those things exist to attract American productions into town (which is fine). In a more general sense, the fees and complexities involved in using them invariably mean that only very high end productions need apply.

 

 

 

 

What would YOU do to help augment the financing of your feature film?

 

I'd go to kickstarter. But again, in a broader sense, I wouldn't, because I wouldn't attempt to finance a feature film, because it would be doomed to failure even if it got made. As I say, most of the funding bodies are aware of this grim inevitability, so it wouldn't get made.

 

 

Have you ever tried to make a feature film?

 

No. See above. I tried, about five or six years ago, to make something that would recognisably have been a web series if the term "web series" had existed five years ago. Some people were interested, then there was suddenly a massive financial apocalypse and they stopped being interested.

 

But financing a feature film? I'm not that stupid.

 

P

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You're the guy who said it was simple. You're the guy who was admonishing people for not doing it. Make your mind up.

 

I'm not sure I used the word "simple" where do you see that? I told people they could learn.

 

BTW, you're five hours ahead, how are you up at 4am?

 

R,

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I re-read back over the thread, I never said it was "simple," in fact I said the opposite in post number 6:

 

"Producing is very tough, I know from first hand experience."

 

R,

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How about state film incentives?

 

 

Hiya James, would those be available to overseas productions shooting over there?

 

Would love to participate in this thread more but as Richard sugggests, it's 4:35 am here.

 

Definitely interesting reading for me tho! :)

 

Freya

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Hiya James, would those be available to overseas productions shooting over there?

 

Sure same as US productions that shoot in Canada. Tax credits are a refund on your in-state or in-province spend. Foreign productions qualify all the time.

 

R,

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I don't see why people don't just use DVD pre-sales more on kick-starter/indiegogo. As mentioned. Set it at say a $30 donation and you get the DVD $50 for the blu-ray. Amazone Create space is very helpful for this on the DVD Side, bluray would be more of a wash. I personally wouldn't do digital download; but some kind of streaming through a password protected site to prevent piracy.. .but I am no producer, and in truth when I did have to "produce" in film school, it was 100% out of my own pocket, through savings and favors from friends.

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Hiya James, would those be available to overseas productions shooting over there?

 

Would love to participate in this thread more but as Richard sugggests, it's 4:35 am here.

 

Definitely interesting reading for me tho! :)

 

Freya

Actually, yeah if you used crew and services in the states with incentive like New Mexico. and you were paying states taxes for that privilege.

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No, because I'm more than aware that those things are not available to me. Why would they be?

 

 

 

 

In this part of the world, those things exist to attract American productions into town (which is fine). In a more general sense, the fees and complexities involved in using them invariably mean that only very high end productions need apply.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd go to kickstarter. But again, in a broader sense, I wouldn't, because I wouldn't attempt to finance a feature film, because it would be doomed to failure even if it got made. As I say, most of the funding bodies are aware of this grim inevitability, so it wouldn't get made.

 

 

 

 

No. See above. I tried, about five or six years ago, to make something that would recognisably have been a web series if the term "web series" had existed five years ago. Some people were interested, then there was suddenly a massive financial apocalypse and they stopped being interested.

 

But financing a feature film? I'm not that stupid.

 

P

Yeah, producing the first one is a bitch. Unfortunately I AM that stupid. We just finished putting together the film package for "The Hunted". It was based on an earlier one for "Blood Moon Rising" where we FIRST cut our teeth on the subject of film finance. Let us just say, there is DEFINITELY a learning curve involved. We've made some inroads, partnered with some people in the know and it's been estimated that it usually takes 2 to 3 years to find money BUT the distributors and banks have gotten much tougher on pre-sales since the financial meltdown. The worst year was 2009. I think the last estimate I read was at 20%. I don't know if hedge funds are still viable.We haven't really looked into those yet as we've been concentrating on equity financing for the most part. We've had interest but nothing rock solid yet. You MAY want to look at this:

 

http://www.creativeskillset.org/film/knowledge/article_5102_1.asp

 

This is some information of film financing in the UK. There is STILL a lot of money out there for indie films and ways to stretch that money especially in England. I'm kind of curious, why did you quit trying?

Edited by James Steven Beverly
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http://www.creativeskillset.org/film/knowledge/article_5102_1.asp

 

This is some information of film financing in the UK. There is STILL a lot of money out there for indie films and ways to stretch that money especially in England. I'm kind of curious, why did you quit trying?

 

That's actually a great link. Thanks James.

 

The UK is a bit of a strange place. Theres quite a tradition of presenting solutions to problems and then saying "Ah yes, but not for you!", this exists in almost every aspect of the UK. In practice stuff is presented as being "universal" and available to all but the reality is very far from that. In addition to that, class is an issue that sadly permeates everything in the UK.

 

In relation to film this tends to manifest itself as funding and support being made available in a very visible way, that isn't really available to everyone, or isn't really available at all in some cases. In some ways presenting these solutions to problems in this way, presents people from being able to find REAL solutions to the problems, as it sets the focus and agenda in a certain way.

 

There is a lack of information about other options and it is not all all clear how anyone is supposed to get from the very pathetic low level stuff to a level where the real higher end stuff starts to work and become applicable. I think the situation has greatly improved however because it is now a LOT more possible to fund things on lower budgets. Cheap video cameras abound and the level of quality that is now expected has been much lowered, so that something just shot on an Alexa could now be considered the high end. In practice you can probably sink to the level of cheap DSLR's and still make something more than visually acceptable. The cheap video look is generally just fine these days. "Good enough" being the mantra of our times.

 

So this seems like a good place to start and it seems perfectly possible to start experimenting with self financed stuff at this level.

Even then however, it's not clear how you get there from here.

 

It's a lot harder for anyone who has spent years trying to find a way through all this stuff and constantly been turned away often with an air of "you don't meet our standards" or "why are the likes of you even bothering to apply?"

 

The more I understand everything that is happening in the UK, and for that matter with the human race generally. The more I start to wonder if certain stuff is put in the way as obstacles to people and to control their thinking. You only have to look at that recent Red Dragon thread, where a poster stepped in from nowhere and with one small sentance, set the agenda for all further discussion on the matter. It can be that easy to control the dialogue and peoples thinking.

 

Freya

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For an idea of the truth about the UK, check out this article:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/jul/16/bbc-breakfast-stephanie-mcgovern

 

A key quote being:

 

 

 

one BBC manager told her: "I didn't realise people like you were clever."

 

"people like you" is often a term used to refer to disabled people in the context of them being capable of anything (at all) as well.

 

I mean, this woman is clearly exceptional, has made a staggering achievement to get where she is today, and yet this is the way she is treated. How fantastic and perfect does she have to be to gain a basic level of respect. This achievement dwarfs the talk of people like Robert Rodriguez both in difficulty and statistically. Here we see how that is treated in the UK however.

 

Heres another thing. In the high class schools of the UK, the headmaster will get up and tell the children "You are the elite of the nation! We expect great things from you!" etc etc. They also tell the children, that when they are old enough they should vote for the conservative party to help preserve this great nation. In the low class schools they tell the children "You really need to work hard, these are tough economic times in which people feel lucky to have a job at all" or "It's important to work hard because employers are going to be looking for people with O level equivalent grades" or "The times are gone when you could get employment without qualifications" or "Have you considered nursing as a profession?" or probably much worse things that I can't begin to articulate. They definitely do not tell them to vote Labour, or for any political party for that matter, these are only children and they should be free to make their own choices right?

 

As I say, it's amazing how with a few subtle words, you can set the agenda of the whole conversation and even affect peoples thinking at a fundamental level.

 

Freya

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I re-read back over the thread, I never said it was "simple,"

 

No, but you certainly did repeatedly tell us that anyone who didn't do it was just some sort of morally bankrupt backslider, which is more or less the same thing, only using more words.

 

Now, is getting money out of people really something anyone can do?

 

Or is it actually quite hard?

 

P

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