Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted January 20, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted January 20, 2014 It really is just for monitoring. I am not even positive if you can turn off the overlays, but it certainly isn't designed for the whole recording (debayer comes to mind ect). Plus, then you'd have to factor in the costs of an external recorder. All that said, it almost always comes down to the look and budget of the project. You may be able to get away with it just fine, or you may not. Though-- it should be mentioned, for the price of a week's worth of rentals on say a scarlet, you could probably buy a black magic pocket camera with enough kit to get by and avoid (somewhat) a frankienmonster of a camera system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Parsons Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 The gear game is a dangerous career and financial pit. Â It depends on how you want to do business: Do you want to be a Cinematographer or do you want to be a rental house? What kind of jobs do you want to do? Â Owning a camera will probably get you work in the short run. That work will be among circles that expect you to have a camera and bring it along for free or at a discount in order to get the job. As such, they only see you as a means to cheap gear. Once your camera falls out of fashion, they will hire someone else who owns the flavor of the month. Â Sell yourself as a cinematographer - someone who can create the image with the tools and budget available - you'll have a lot more longevity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Opgenorth Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 It really is just for monitoring. I am not even positive if you can turn off the overlays, but it certainly isn't designed for the whole recording (debayer comes to mind ect). Plus, then you'd have to factor in the costs of an external recorder. All that said, it almost always comes down to the look and budget of the project. You may be able to get away with it just fine, or you may not. Though-- it should be mentioned, for the price of a week's worth of rentals on say a scarlet, you could probably buy a black magic pocket camera with enough kit to get by and avoid (somewhat) a frankienmonster of a camera system. Yeah I probably wouldn't rent a Scarlet if it summed up to the price of a Blackmagic camera or say an FS100 with an external recorder....I'm just saying that one of these days I want to get my feet wet with RED on a project even if I only have the camera rental for 2 days I'd like to get the experience...by no means am I saying its the only option I view. The Blackmagic cameras are very affordable and I love their features, I just have to sort of wait for them to be available in my area (I live in Upstate NY and not NYC so its harder to find this stuff). As for a frankenmonster camera setup, thats not fun but ultimately the only thing I care about is the final product and if its getting the job done proper. Â The gear game is a dangerous career and financial pit. Â It depends on how you want to do business: Do you want to be a Cinematographer or do you want to be a rental house? What kind of jobs do you want to do? Â Owning a camera will probably get you work in the short run. That work will be among circles that expect you to have a camera and bring it along for free or at a discount in order to get the job. As such, they only see you as a means to cheap gear. Once your camera falls out of fashion, they will hire someone else who owns the flavor of the month. Â Sell yourself as a cinematographer - someone who can create the image with the tools and budget available - you'll have a lot more longevity. Â With all do respect and without sounding snobby I really don't need a gear game sit down/lecture...not planning on buying a RED Camera anytime soon and my first goal is to move closer to the city where I can can simply be surrounded by people who are super creative and smarter than me! I know about the "Do you want to be a Cinematographer or run a rental house?" question as I'm always reading up on these types of things. I'd be lying if I said I didn't have some pretty strong gear lust towards RED cameras but like I said I don't plan on purchasing one as I don't have $10K let alone $25K to blow on a set up...I'm talking purely rental uses and I know the craft matters more than the camera and want to be known as someone who is versatile and not someone people go "Oh lets use that guy for his camera stuff!", I do know of people who own equipment that are perfectly fine with being used for it but I have seen people buy expensive things only to realize they have to sell them months later. I'm very careful by nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted January 20, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted January 20, 2014 Well you know, if you want to get your feet wet with a Red, why not rent one for a weekend, shoot raw, and do some timelapse, or some kind of quick and dirty music video ect. Then you can get an idea of the "proper" (or better put "usual") workflow of the system-- all the way through to color correction off of the raws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Bedford Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I had a Blackmagic Cinema Camera and now own a BM Pocket Cinema Camera. I gave raw a go but ultimately the benefits of shooting to log ProRes outweighed all the fuss of shooting raw and I get the same image I want anyway. Not only do I end up with less storage requirements, it also enables me to import directly into FCPX, generate Proxy files in a flash and grade in the NLE which means no round tripping and export blindingly quick because of the way it background renders to ProRes. Â So if you gave me $100,000 to buy a camera package for myself, I'd almost certainly go with an ARRI Amira and use the tens of thousands remaining to buy a great prime lens set (CP.2s or whatever) and some basic rigging and prerequisites for shooting (cards, batteries etc). I'd also be shooting on the Amira straight to LogC 2K ProRes and use something like FilmConvert to grade (Vision3 on the BMD Pocket looks lovely by the way). Â That's my 2c. An incredibly expensive camera is great and all, but if you can hardly shoot with it before your budget is empty then it's not worth the cost in my opinion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Watt Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 So, just to clear up this misconception about Epics using so much more storage space than Alexas, At 6K 12 to 1 compression (which is what a lot of people are shooting on Dragon) you get about 40 minutes from a 128 Gig card. On an Alexa you'd get about 55 minutes at 2K ProRes 4444. If you shot 5K at 12 to 1 you'd match the 2K ProRes 4444 for record times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 6, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted February 6, 2014 Even if you give wavelets credit for being twice as effective as DCT, which you probably shouldn't, I can't credit that 12:1 compression is... um... a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted February 6, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted February 6, 2014 Keep in mind that raw is a more efficient storage container because the signal hasn't been expanded yet into three color channels. Assuming no compression, think of debayered 2K RGB as three 2K files for every single 2K raw file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 6, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted February 6, 2014 Well, yes, but Alexa's sensor is well over 2K wide, so you're storing probably-mostly-real RGB information in a 1080p RGB ProRes file there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy J Tomlinson Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 You're a student and you have money for an Alexa? Nice. I spent 100K buying my Alexa package, that's what it came to to get a basic shooting package with no lenses of course. Â Â i also still consider myself as a filmstudent and i tought the 4k i spent for my moviecam compact package (3 magazines, two battery packs with charger, 4 different ground glasses, monitor and video tap) is quiet a lot. however, i knoew why i wanted film and not digital. for me the calculation matches my desire. im happier than i would be with digital. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted February 6, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted February 6, 2014 4K for a Moviecam package??? That's pretty good even in today's pro-digital market! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy J Tomlinson Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 4K for a Moviecam package??? That's pretty good even in today's pro-digital market!  yes i have a moviecam compact, 2x400feet mags, 1x 1000feet mag, two new battery packs, two chargers, 4 ground glasses, color video tap, monitor, long lense (viewfinder) price was roughly 4k  2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Watt Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Even if you give wavelets credit for being twice as effective as DCT, which you probably shouldn't, I can't credit that 12:1 compression is... um... a good idea. According to the rental house I was at last week, they said 12:1 6K was perfect for anything other than heavy VFX. That seems to have been backed up on Reduser as well. I often shoot 8:1 5K on the Epic MX and it looks great, and they say the compression is much better on Dragon - less noise from sensor etc. So it seems pretty plausible to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 6, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted February 6, 2014 That seems to have been backed up on Reduser as well. Â Oh, well, in that case... Â Randy, what do you do for lenses? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Watt Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014  Oh, well, in that case...  Randy, what do you do for lenses  I'm just saying that the storage requirements are not all that different. If you're making a decision based on storage, you might be looking at 30% to 50% more in storage costs with a Dragon as opposed to an Alexa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 6, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted February 6, 2014 I think the issue really is that by the time you 12:1 compress it it isn't really 6K anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Watt Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I think the issue really is that by the time you 12:1 compress it it isn't really 6K anymore. Sure, but it's more than 2k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Levine Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 This is kind of going in circles... Â None of these cameras produces a poor image, but all of them are an investment. Â if purchasing is really the way you want to go, rent a red for your next project, an alexa for the following project, an f55 for the next, and a c500 for the next. Â yes you'll need to invest more time in learning each camera, but in that process you'll find which you prefer the most. Â im constantly thrilled by the image i get out of the c100, the flexibility that the canon's remarkably clean high isos along with the sheer friendliness of the design/function is what settled me on that camera, but only after giving a feel for the others in that price bracket. Now that they're more 4k recorders on the market, the c500's lack of internal recording options is less of a issue/consideration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014  yes i have a moviecam compact, 2x400feet mags, 1x 1000feet mag, two new battery packs, two chargers, 4 ground glasses, color video tap, monitor, long lense (viewfinder) price was roughly 4k   Wow the party is at Randy's house it would seem! :)  Freya 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy J Tomlinson Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014  Oh, well, in that case...  Randy, what do you do for lenses?  i rent them. i can have CP2 lenses for 60$ a day or cooke s4i for 80$ / day  BUT i own a 58mm HELIOS 44-2 lense with PL mount. and if i flip the PL adapter half way around i even can do some macro shots :) the lense has a range of F2 to 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy J Tomlinson Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014  Wow the party is at Randy's house it would seem! :)  Freya  freya brother :rolleyes: you are warmly invited and welcome to the party. i even spend a beer or two haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 9, 2014 Premium Member Share Posted February 9, 2014 i rent them. i can have CP2 lenses for 60$ a day or cooke s4i for 80$ / day Sounds like a pretty attractive deal. Do you record the HDMI or use the internal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014  freya brother :rolleyes: you are warmly invited and welcome to the party. i even spend a beer or two haha  Is that as in monks or as in "Oh brother!"??? ;) Don't think the monks would be too keen given that the name Freya originates with a pagan goddess.  cans of Beer eh? Hmmmm I had in mind more large cans of film! ;)  Freya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014  i rent them. i can have CP2 lenses for 60$ a day or cooke s4i for 80$ / day  It would appear that Phil is speechless. I can understand that. :)  Freya 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Black Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014  i rent them. i can have CP2 lenses for 60$ a day or cooke s4i for 80$ / day   Wait a minute! You mean per lens right?  Freya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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