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Assembling a lighting & grip package, thoughts?


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I dunno; for me it LEDs just don't "feel" right. I can't put my finger on it exactly-- color does play a part-- but I think it's more the quality of the light-- specifically the many many point sources going outwards. It's more a gut "utz" than anything else but I really just enjoy the warmth and, almost sheen, I get with a good tungsten unit. That said, I couldn't honestly think of shooting anything in a car these days without LEDs-- and I'm starting to think about doing some daylight coop lights with them as prices come down. We'll see.

 

That's precisely why you should look into the remote phosphor units. I can't stand regular LEDs either - the multipoint sources look nothing like anything you find in nature or civilisation, which is why they look so 'wrong'.

 

With remote phosphor the phosphor that was previously placed inside each individual diode (to turn their natively blue light white) is instead placed as a large single sheet in front of the led array, the uncorrected diodes then shine in to the phosphor panel and excite the material which then radiates the light outwards. So the panels you see on remote phosphor units aren't diffusion sheets - they're the actual light source - so instead of having a multipoint source, you're getting a large A4-sized single source.

 

The light quality is beautiful and you have zero issues with multiple shadows, because it's a single source unit.

 

You also maintain all the great benefits of regular LED panels, in that you can run them off batteries, and fit them into tight spaces.

Edited by Mark Kenfield
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None of it matters on small jobs. Its just get some poop done. Most small time dps wouldnt know the difference if you told them it was a $3000 remote phospher or a $300 led panel.

If theyre doing jobs where theyre metering and adding quarters of correction and doing it right, theyd get a gaffer.

Theyll notice if you dont have any cutters or stands or lights left though.

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Colour always matters, but it may not matter that much.

 

This stuff is always relative and dependent on exactly what you're trying to achieve. For instance, I own a 150W ceramic metal halide light which on the face of it may be the worst light imaginable. It's got an iron ballast, so it flickers at 50Hz. There is no hot-restrike capability. It emits at about 4000K, and the colour rendering index is something I can't be bothered to look up because it would only depress me (actually I think it's a CDM-T lamp so it's probably in the high 80s and thus not too awful, but still).

 

X788fotoa%20sinistra1-1X_multiparCDM150.

 

Ceramic metal halide. Cheeeap. Nice diecast shell, though. Mine is the black one.

 

But let's be realistic: I use this thing as a backlight. It's the moon, or the sun coming through a small window on a "day interior" that's actually a set. Or it's simulating what it actually is: industrial lighting. Nobody's too bothered if an intentionally very blue backlight isn't ace at skintones or isn't rendering the lead actor's wardrobe as quite the right shade. That stuff's crucial for key and fill, but less so in this situation.

 

Let's not pretend that it's absolutely impossible to get workable results out of stuff like this.

 

P

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First of all, it's really going to depend who you're working for. Every DoP works differently, and whilst some may completely embrace new lighting 'toys,' others will prefer to work with what they know, at least until they figure out a new light.

 

As well, some DPs will never use an LED, as much as you'd try to convince them, others will be happy to; some will on smaller jobs and won't on bigger jobs. Certainly I'd imagine your smaller LED panels at the very least will need minus green stuck on almost permanently, assuming colour is indeed a concern for the DP you're working for. I know the Area 48 lights you're talking about, and whilst I haven't worked with them extensively, I've seen them in action, and they're certainly not bad, though I'm not sure that they're really equivocal to a Kino. Admittedly, my time spent with them was short.

 

Another thing to consider is that you've listed some pretty expensive lamps. This is all well and good, and Dedos are certainly great lights. That said, for the same price as one 650w Dedo head, you might get 2-3x Arri 650w fresnels. If you're going to be bouncing or shooting through a frame regardless - then the benefit of a Dedo starts to diminish.

 

I was recently using the new Hive plasma lights, which are actually not bad little lights - lot of output for relatively low power draw, flicker free, and all self-contained in a road case. I feel like they're pretty pricey though.

 

Overall, I think it's going to depend on the work you intend to be doing, and the people you intend to be working with - which is not an incredibly helpful answer I know ;)

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If you're confident you can light what you have been in the past the same or better, and you can foresee the same or similar clients paying you appropriate rates to do so with the gear you will have, then I don't see too much of an issue.

 

On the other hand, if you're not sure you can command appropriate rates to be able to pay off the higher priced items, it might be safer to invest in cheaper units, pay them off quicker, then start making some profits which you can use to upgrade.

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Kinos are useful on small locations partly because you can rip a single 4' tube out of the fixture and tape it to the ceiling or clamp it onto a c-stand arm, etc. The only thing similar would be if you made a 4' batten strip with LED Lite Ribbon on it or something similar.

 

Your needs are also different if you are shooting talking head interviews for EFP work versus narrative work where you are recreating natural light effects and matching existing available and practical lights. I can't imagine not having some tungsten units for lighting scenes where there are tungsten practicals in the room.

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D'you find that most tungsten practicals actually match movie lights?

 

A lot of modern household lighting, where it's incandescent at all, is actually tungsten halogen, I guess, which ought to match. But a lot of lighting in people's homes may still be old-style, low-temperature tungsten.

 

And of course the joy of low energy replacements...

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I can say no, it is normally warmer, but at least for me, if i'm going that route of "punching up" or motivating with practical, it is a trivial matter to put a little cto on the tungsten head, or just put it on a dimmer-- if it's even bothering you. For me, I may just let the lamp be slightly warmer than they "light" it's throwing, since you're mostly seeing it through the shade anyway so people kind of let that slide.

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Yes, you have to either dim a tungsten unit or add CTO gel to match household bulbs, though these days, many of those are CFL's, which we normally swap out to tungsten on the day... but someday that may not be possible. So in a future where households are only lit with CFL's and LED bulbs and can't be replaced, then I guess the movie units should probably be similar. As a "green" person, I look forward to the day of more energy-efficient lighting but as a photographer, I will miss the look of tungsten light on skin, the color can't be beat, except maybe by a carbon arc...

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Speaking of which, this is quite entertaining.

 

Some replacement tungsten bulbs - which are basically a small quartz tungsten halogen capsule inside a frosted glass diffuser - should not only have all the advantages of tungsten you mention, but also ought to match movie lights better. I wonder.

 

P

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I've seen/used those halogen inside a tungsten housing for awhile now-- Ikea used to sell them and whenver I was there, since they were very cheap, I'd pick up a few. They're nice-- odd wattages it seems, but pretty good all in all and nice because you can still put a lamp shade over them (which is why I assume they're built like that.)

 

Apparently, as well, LEDs should be coming down substantially in price since they changed the "energy star" system for them which allows for subsidies:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/business/energy-environment/this-little-led-of-mine.html?ref=science&_r=0

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First of all, it's really going to depend who you're working for. Every DoP works differently, and whilst some may completely embrace new lighting 'toys,' others will prefer to work with what they know, at least until they figure out a new light.

 

As well, some DPs will never use an LED, as much as you'd try to convince them, others will be happy to; some will on smaller jobs and won't on bigger jobs. Certainly I'd imagine your smaller LED panels at the very least will need minus green stuck on almost permanently, assuming colour is indeed a concern for the DP you're working for. I know the Area 48 lights you're talking about, and whilst I haven't worked with them extensively, I've seen them in action, and they're certainly not bad, though I'm not sure that they're really equivocal to a Kino. Admittedly, my time spent with them was short.

 

Another thing to consider is that you've listed some pretty expensive lamps. This is all well and good, and Dedos are certainly great lights. That said, for the same price as one 650w Dedo head, you might get 2-3x Arri 650w fresnels. If you're going to be bouncing or shooting through a frame regardless - then the benefit of a Dedo starts to diminish.

 

I was recently using the new Hive plasma lights, which are actually not bad little lights - lot of output for relatively low power draw, flicker free, and all self-contained in a road case. I feel like they're pretty pricey though.

 

Overall, I think it's going to depend on the work you intend to be doing, and the people you intend to be working with - which is not an incredibly helpful answer I know ;)

 

Thanks Jax,

 

Down here it's actually only 28% more for me to purchase a Dedo 650w over an Arri 650w, so the premium for the extra control the Dedo offers isn't too bad really - if it were a case of 2-3 Arris for the price of one Dedo, then the Dedos would probably have never even entered the discussion.

 

My plan with the Area 48s is to simply call them 'Remote Phosphor' lights and gush about what they do without mentioning the 'LED' part of things - should give me just enough leeway to show people just how nice the light quality is before the LED stigma can kick in :p

 

The Hive Plasma lights sound terrific, I'm really excited for plasma lighting - though the price/output ratio is too steep for me at the moment.

 

Kinos are useful on small locations partly because you can rip a single 4' tube out of the fixture and tape it to the ceiling or clamp it onto a c-stand arm, etc. The only thing similar would be if you made a 4' batten strip with LED Lite Ribbon on it or something similar.

 

Your needs are also different if you are shooting talking head interviews for EFP work versus narrative work where you are recreating natural light effects and matching existing available and practical lights. I can't imagine not having some tungsten units for lighting scenes where there are tungsten practicals in the room.

 

David, I've heard several people talk about pulling kino tubes out of the fixtures and mounting them in all sorts of interesting places, but I've never seen a kino with enough spare wiring to pull the bulb more than a foot or so from the fixture itself. How do you actually wire the light to get that flexibility of positioning?

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Maybe you've only worked with Divas and whatnot but a normal 4' single-bank fixture (or the 2-bank or 4-bank fixtures) allow the bulb(s) and harness cable that runs to the ballast to be removed from the housing and reflector backing. With the 4-bank fixture you've got four connectors (well, eight) for four tubes branching from the harness cable but you can just attach one tube.

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I don't know if you have thought about also adding some 1x1 led panels, the kind that's dimmable and gives you both tungsten and daylight. I really enjoy using those especially since you can run them off a camera battery. add some 1x1 cutouts of different diffs as well.

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My plan with the Area 48s is to simply call them 'Remote Phosphor' lights and gush about what they do without mentioning the 'LED' part of things - should give me just enough leeway to show people just how nice the light quality is before the LED stigma can kick in :P

 

 

Call it what you will, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has a beak, it is still a duck. Though Adrian can’t put his finger on it, there is definitely something about remote phosphor LEDs that still doesn’t feel right – it’s the color. While Remote Phosphor LEDs are slightly better than most LEDs panels, they still suffer the inherent limitations of all LEDs that use Remote Phosphor Technology.

 

The bottom line is that there are inherent limitations in the “Stokes shift” process by which a portion of a LED “pump” color is transformed from shorter wavelengths to longer whether the phosphors are encapsulated in the LED emitter or encased in a remote panel like the Area 48 LEDs. The first limitation is that the “Stokes shift” process works in only one direction – that is why LEDs don’t emit color wavelengths shorter than their pump color and why Remote Phosphor LEDS, compared to continuous light sources, have no output at wavelengths shorter than about 425nm (which is why violet colors don't render well under them.)

 

Another, inherent shortcoming to this approach to generating “tungsten” light from an LED is that the Stokes shift process reduces the total lumen output, so there is a tradeoff in lumen output with warmer color temperatures. While the Remote Phosphor LEDs generate more light in the medium blue-cyan-turquoise range from about 465-510nm than the typical Phosphor White LED, the 3200K panels still cut the high frequency output in the 600 nm range, which is why pinks, reds, oranges, and other long wave-length colors tend to look a little dull under them, compared with how they look under true Tungsten light which is a continuous spectrum light source that extends all the way out on the long-wavelength end. And, where these long wavelength colors are vital to rendering a realistic flesh tones, the absence of them explains why flesh tones still don’t look quite right under them(see my newsletter article below for Spectral Distribution Graphs for Remote Phosphor LEDs & Tungsten.)

 

Since, remote phosphor technology makes it possible for LED manufacturers to tune the output of their luminaries to obtain high CRI ratings and deliver good color rendering to the eye while delivering generally poor color reproduction on the screen (see my newsletter article below for details), BBS Lighting will have to do more than throw around CRI ratings above 90 to convince me. There is probably a reason hat BBS Lighting doesn’t give the spectral distribution graphs for their panels on their website. Are they hiding the low and high frequency cut-offs, and how continuous the spectral distribution is in between?

 

You have to be wary of all the claims made by LED head manufacturers because they all put a little spin on the scientific data which has a tendency to cloud issues. For this reason, to pick the right LED luminary for a particular job it helps to have a thorough understanding of the technology. For our company newsletter I have put together an overview of the technology and what products are available for motion picture lighting (available at http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html#anchorHigh%20Output%20AC%20LEDs.)

 

Better than the typical Phosphor White LED, I would not say Remote Phosphor panels are “comparable to a 1K traditional soft light” as BBS lighting claims on their website and surely does not eliminate the challenge of lighting with the discontinuous spectrum inherent in most LED lighting sources. And, I don’t see the point of paying upwards of two grand for a fixture that offers little over what a quartz soft-light offers.

 

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting and Grip Rentals & Sales in Boston

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Well, what it offers is considerably greater luminous efficacy, or at least it should, with competent design. I haven't done the numbers on the BB&S stuff. As you say I think the biggest problem with this stuff is that it's currently very much at early adopter prices, and perhaps if those prices moderate a little, the upsides will have a bit more sway.

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Thanks Jax,

 

Down here it's actually only 28% more for me to purchase a Dedo 650w over an Arri 650w, so the premium for the extra control the Dedo offers isn't too bad really - if it were a case of 2-3 Arris for the price of one Dedo, then the Dedos would probably have never even entered the discussion.

 

My plan with the Area 48s is to simply call them 'Remote Phosphor' lights and gush about what they do without mentioning the 'LED' part of things - should give me just enough leeway to show people just how nice the light quality is before the LED stigma can kick in :P

 

The Hive Plasma lights sound terrific, I'm really excited for plasma lighting - though the price/output ratio is too steep for me at the moment.

 

 

David, I've heard several people talk about pulling kino tubes out of the fixtures and mounting them in all sorts of interesting places, but I've never seen a kino with enough spare wiring to pull the bulb more than a foot or so from the fixture itself. How do you actually wire the light to get that flexibility of positioning?

 

I don't know where you plan to purchase from, and maybe you've been able to swindle some deals, but:

 

http://www.lemac.com.au/Products/DedolightDLH650650WTungstenLightHead.aspx

 

http://www.videocraft.com.au/arri-650-plus-with-doors-filter-frame

 

Arri Fresnel is almost exactly half price, and that includes doors (which the Dedo doesn't). You can get off-brand FIlmgear lights (which aren't much different to the Arri's) for even cheaper:

http://johnbarry.com.au/products/filmgear-lighting-filmgear-650w-fresnel-junior

 

All the control in the world doesn't help you when you need one more lamp placed somewhere.

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Maybe you've only worked with Divas and whatnot but a normal 4' single-bank fixture (or the 2-bank or 4-bank fixtures) allow the bulb(s) and harness cable that runs to the ballast to be removed from the housing and reflector backing. With the 4-bank fixture you've got four connectors (well, eight) for four tubes branching from the harness cable but you can just attach one tube.

 

Thanks David, I'll definitely try pulling apart the next 4' Kino I get my hands on. That would be really handy.

 

I don't know if you have thought about also adding some 1x1 led panels, the kind that's dimmable and gives you both tungsten and daylight. I really enjoy using those especially since you can run them off a camera battery. add some 1x1 cutouts of different diffs as well.

 

I've actually got two bi-color 1x1 panels already, and being battery operable they're incredibly useful for some things - but those things all involve lighting up sections of background and keeping them as far away from the talent or important parts of the frame as possible - because the color and light quality is horrible.

 

 

Call it what you will, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has a beak, it is still a duck. Though Adrian can’t put his finger on it, there is definitely something about remote phosphor LEDs that still doesn’t feel right – it’s the color. While Remote Phosphor LEDs are slightly better than most LEDs panels, they still suffer the inherent limitations of all LEDs that use Remote Phosphor Technology.

 

The bottom line is that there are inherent limitations in the “Stokes shift” process by which a portion of a LED “pump” color is transformed from shorter wavelengths to longer whether the phosphors are encapsulated in the LED emitter or encased in a remote panel like the Area 48 LEDs. The first limitation is that the “Stokes shift” process works in only one direction – that is why LEDs don’t emit color wavelengths shorter than their pump color and why Remote Phosphor LEDS, compared to continuous light sources, have no output at wavelengths shorter than about 425nm (which is why violet colors don't render well under them.)

 

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting and Grip Rentals & Sales in Boston

 

Hi Guy, your articles on the spectral qualities of different light sources have been a huge help in my understanding of how different fixtures render colours and how and why some do well, where others fall flat.

 

I'll certainly have to run some tests comparing the remote phosphor units to tungsten when looking specifically at reds, oranges and pinks. But I put the Area 48 to work the day after I got it on a corporate talking heads shoot, and couldn't see any real weaknesses in rendering skin tones. It handled a range of skin tones from quite pale white skin, through to deeply olive mediterranean skin beautifully, it's in a whole other ballpark to the colour rendering of any other LEDs I've used previously, and certainly seems an easy match colour and quality-wise for a good batch of fluoro tubes in a Kino fixture.

 

Obviously full-spectrum sources would always be preferable (and I think plasma is going to be the really interesting technology to watch on that front), but if there are any serious or worrisome weaknesses in these remote phosphor units - I'm struggling to see them personally (and I'm one of those gits who has to throw a +/- green up on any fixture that's not quite right).

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I don't know where you plan to purchase from, and maybe you've been able to swindle some deals, but:

 

http://www.lemac.com.au/Products/DedolightDLH650650WTungstenLightHead.aspx

 

http://www.videocraft.com.au/arri-650-plus-with-doors-filter-frame

 

Arri Fresnel is almost exactly half price, and that includes doors (which the Dedo doesn't). You can get off-brand FIlmgear lights (which aren't much different to the Arri's) for even cheaper:

http://johnbarry.com.au/products/filmgear-lighting-filmgear-650w-fresnel-junior

 

All the control in the world doesn't help you when you need one more lamp placed somewhere.

 

Cheers Jax, that's a good price on the Arri from Videocraft, I haven't seen them that cheap anywhere else. That said, I'm a pretty handy swindler ;) so I'm still looking at a fair bit less than twice the price of the Arri.

 

I think I'm pretty set on getting the Dedos I originally listed, however I agree with the various suggestions people have made in this thread about having a higher number of fixtures and having some fixtures with broader beam spreads, so I'll definitely have to pony up the extra for a couple of other units. The new Arri Plus open-face lights are really nice (for blondes/redheads), but I'll have to figure out whether I get a couple of those, or whether I opt for some fresnels instead.

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One place where my Daylight Dedo would be poop hot is reflection. Im obsessed with mirror bounce ideas and it would be as close as you can get without a custom head to parallel beam triple bounce glory Haneke style.

I really want one now.

But then i want 2 m18s, 2 celebs, a paparazzi, a brieze and the list goes on.

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(and I'm one of those gits who has to throw a +/- green up on any fixture that's not quite right).

 

Colorimetry problems with LEDs are not the same as those with fluorescent, so green isn't always, or even often, the problem.

 

There tends to be a lack of red as this is the largest shift away from the blue that the phosphor is required to achieve. There can also be a lack of differentiation between similar shades of green, turquoise and blue, as this is the point between the emission peaks of the blue LED and the yellow phosphor. Finally, extremely deep blues are apparently sometimes a problem, as there isn't generally any output of a blue deeper than the blue of the LED driver itself, although I've not seen this myself.

 

It is generally not possible to fully correct an LED source with filtration, at least without soaking up a ridiculous amount of its output.

 

It may be better to look for TLCI data rather than CRI. TLCI is a more stringent test. Engineers can trick LED designs into creating good CRI results while still exhibiting poor overall colorimetry. The best LED designs use more than one type of white-emitting phosphor and possibly different blue LED drivers, which is usually quite obvious on the TLCI because there are two clear peaks in the yellow part of the spectrum. With this arrangement it is possible to get extremely good performance that only a real curmudgeon could complain about.

 

Confident manufacturers will publish TLCI data; I'm starting to make a point of asking about it.

 

P

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