The DRAKE HD camera

[Peter J DeCrescenzo]

Just an FYI:

 

The DRAKE is a "self-developed" HD camera system that actually seems to work. They have a new English website up. Pretty impressive "film" results considering they're not a multi-national corporation. Info and several downloadable, high-resolution sample clips at:

http://www.drachenfeder.com/aktuelles/drake_hd_en.htm

 

In addition to the info on their website, there's an impressively long thread on DVInfo.net detailing this project from start to finish at:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?...15&pagenumber=1

 

I'm not involved in this project in any way; I just find it interesting.

 

All the best,

 

- Peter DeCrescenzo

[Keith Mottram]

Really quite impressed by the quality of the images, especially the depth of field and the motion blur. I'd certainly consider renting one. Just shows how little the big companys know if this little team can put a camera capable of images like these out. Build quality looks a little bit dodgy though.

 

Keith

[Guest Trevor Swaim]

very impressive stuff, and the camera (with mattebox,rods,7" monitor, etc.) only costs $19,000? :o

[Christoph Heimer]

Hello,

 

(please excuse my english)

 

I live quite next to the guys woh built the Drake Camera and was able to convince them to borrow us the first functional one for a student movie, 90 minutes. The camera gives us a data stream of 22mb/s raw files on portable notebook hdds which we have to convert to 66 mb/s uncompressed avi. The quality is incredible! But we ask ourselves, how to edit this movie. In any case we have to buy equipment, because the only thing we have right now is a P4 2,8 , 1Gb mem for dv editing.

 

It would be nice to edit online but we calculated a bit and came to a price of 6k ? .

Dual Opteron 2,2

2Gb ram

many other stuff (mobo, s-ata controller, graphics card etc)

8x400 GB Raid 5. The controller gives us a max read speed of 400 Mb/s.

 

Do you think this would be fast enough to edit online? Which software would you recommend? I'm a (dont hurt me) Adobe Premiere user. I was not able to find a way to display HD footage on a 2nd tft monitor via Premiere?! Is this possible?

 

Other solution would be a dual g5, but that would come even more expensive (and don't forget: student project -> no money ;))

 

The final solution would be an offline workstation. P4 3,6, 2 GB Ram + Raid 5. Possible? Or Macintosh with FCP5 which was announced yesterday at NAB ?

 

What do you think? We are looking for a cheap possibility and i don't have people in my neighbourhood who know about such stuff ;) Are you able to help?

I would also post some results of the camera in daylight situations weh we have shot some test footage in may! :)

[Mark Allen]

If you don't get answers to your editing questions here - try reading some info over at www.hdforindies.com where Mike Curtis obsesses over various HD editing technology. He might be curious about your Drake experience as well.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Um, maybe.

 

Which RAID controllers are you looking at, and which motherboard? 3ware's 9000 series are more or less the only thing that'll get you near where you want to go, and there's problems with them even then. I don't think you'll get 400Mb/sec out of a single card and you will need to ensure that your motherboard has fast PCI-X slots. There are other ways to go; Medea make fast SCSI and Fiberchannel RAIDs which will get you there in concert but they're far from cheap.

 

Anyway, I'm slightly confused by your need for all this performance. If your uncompressed stream (the camera compresses? how?) is around 60Mb/sec, which it would be for a 1280x720 eight-bit image at 24p, that's something I think you'll find a single decent RAID card with four drives on it will handle very adequately. You'll still need to ensure fast enough motherboard and memory, but I'd have thought you'd be OK.

 

No guarantees, though. Qualifying systems for this kind of work is no small task - I'd be interested to know how you get on. I think you'll end up with more problems and certainly more expense with a Mac-based solution - they're great if you just want to buy everything full price from the Apple store and plug it all together using Apple branded cables on an Apple branded desk, but try to throw a lot of extraneous hardware at it and they can become a real pain in the neck. XRaid is not cheap, nor is it particularly fast.

 

Phil

[Christoph Heimer]

Hi,

 

Um, maybe.

 

Which RAID controllers are you looking at, and which motherboard? 3ware's 9000 series are more or less the only thing that'll get you near where you want to go, and there's problems with them even then. I don't think you'll get 400Mb/sec out of a single card and you will need to ensure that your motherboard has fast PCI-X slots. There are other ways to go; Medea make fast SCSI and Fiberchannel RAIDs which will get you there in concert but they're far from cheap.

 

Anyway, I'm slightly confused by your need for all this performance. If your uncompressed stream (the camera compresses? how?) is around 60Mb/sec, which it would be for a 1280x720 eight-bit image at 24p, that's something I think you'll find a single decent RAID card with four drives on it will handle very adequately. You'll still need to ensure fast enough motherboard and memory, but I'd have thought you'd be OK.

 

No guarantees, though. Qualifying systems for this kind of work is no small task - I'd be interested to know how you get on. I think you'll end up with more problems and certainly more expense with a Mac-based solution - they're great if you just want to buy everything full price from the Apple store and plug it all together using Apple branded cables on an Apple branded desk, but try to throw a lot of extraneous hardware at it and they can become a real pain in the neck. XRaid is not cheap, nor is it particularly fast.

 

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thanks for your fast response!

 

To answer a few questeions: We thought of a 3ware Escalade 9500S-8 Raid Controller on a Tyan Thunder K8W S2885ANRF Mobo. But if think that the dual Opterons have too much performance for us or at least that we can get away with a less powerfull system, this would be great because we havn't that much money.

 

Do you think we will be able to edit Online on a Fast PCI X Board for P4 3,6 or so with the same raid controller? :)

[Michael Maier]

This camera sounds interesting but I have some questions. As I understand, it's a one chip camera? Will color be good with a 1 chip camera? Does it have a DSP for gamma, knee, color matrix etc? The image in the demos looked very unsaturated. By the way, when will it ship, if ever? The Kinetta never really happened.

I hope the same doesn't happen with thi one. But 19k sounds too expensive for a home made camera. Specially now with the HVX200 for 6K. The HVX200 shoots 108024p which the Drake does not and also has variable frame rates. It's a 1/3", but it has 3 chips at least. Besides Panasonic behind it. Will this Drake camera even have a warranty? Can we pay so much for a camera which we don't even know if the company will be around if we need tech support?

[Christoph Heimer]

This camera sounds interesting but I have some questions. As I understand, it's a one chip camera? Will color be good with a 1 chip camera? Does it have a DSP for gamma, knee, color matrix etc? The image in the demos looked very unsaturated. By the way, when will it ship, if ever? The Kinetta never really happened.

I hope the same doesn't happen with thi one. But 19k sounds too expensive for a home made camera. Specially now with the HVX200 for 6K. The HVX200 shoots 108024p which the Drake does not and also has variable frame rates. It's a 1/3", but it has 3 chips at least. Besides Panasonic behind it. Will this Drake camera even have a warranty? Can we pay so much for a camera which we don't even know if the company will be around if we need tech support?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Will color be good with a 1 chip camera?"

Yes, color is quite astonishing film like! It seems to be a bit undersaturated, but it looks just like film!! They are still optimizing the colors, but think of the arri d20 which has only one singel chip, too. Drake uses a Cmos sensor which gives you really impressive colors like with a dslr!

 

"Does it have a DSP for gamma, knee, color matrix etc?"

There will be lots of presets for gamma and color, about 30 afaik and you will be able to set the curves manually in a real GUI, not like at the dvx100.

 

"By the way, when will it ship, if ever?"

This camera will definitly ship! They are organising the first deals to film academys right now. If you order one camera, you will get one! As soon as they have the first 3 customers, they go to a factory, give them the cad files and wil produce a larger amount of cameras mechanically.

 

"But 19k sounds too expensive for a home made camera. Specially now with the HVX200 for 6K. The HVX200 shoots 108024p which the Drake does not and also has variable frame rates. It's a 1/3", but it has 3 chips at least. "

 

Now, with the HVX200 released for 6k , I have the same opinion like you about the price. But otherwise look what you will get: The Drake is really woth the price and it is A LOT more closer to the dream of all the Indi filmmakers to get the Filmlook than any 1/3" CCD Camera will ever be. The colors are really astonishing and the contrast range is phantastic. especially in comparison to the one of normal video cameras. If 35mm film has a contrast range of 80, the drake has 70 and pal minidv has 35 or so. At least thats what they told me! And think of the date rate and the 4:4:4 color compression. Over 400mbit/s in comparision to the 60 or so of the HVX200 in 720P! The record medium is a lot cheaper, but thats a little problem: The HUGHE amount of filmdata which you will get. That's our problem at the moment too!

 

Well, that's all i can tell you about the drake, but I think, it is a very great camera! :)

[Michael Maier]

Yeah the HVX200 will ne much easier to work with. You can record sound in sync, not true with the Drake. But what scares me is dumpping 20K on a home made camera. How about warranty and tech support? You never know if they go under in a year, you are out on your own. If it was a Panasonic or even a JVC, that would be different. But it's not easy to find the confidence to dump that much money on a weekend project. I would be interested to know how many they sale.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> Do you think we will be able to edit Online on a Fast PCI X Board for P4 3,6 or so with

> the same raid controller?

 

You'd probably be all right for I/O, but the rest of it is very software-dependent.

 

I have a couple of concerns about this camera. First off, I'm just not sure that eight bits is enough, although HDCAM seems to get away with it. Burning it out to film will tend to hide banding in the noise, sorry, grain, and you can always diffusion dither.

 

1280x720 is just under half what we like to see for film work. I'm not sure it's sharp enough.

 

Also the highlight handling doesn't seem fantastic. I'd be interested to know more technical detail about how the footage of the blacksmith was handled, for example - what does the camera original material look like, and how do the camera settings affect both the recorded image (one hopes not at all) and the LUT, and how was that LUT applied. Given the success of Viper in this regard, I'm cautious about anything that makes irredemable changes to the data in camera. There's only one place it needs to be right, and that's on the colourist's calibrated display. Any DSP tweaking before that point is just quantising your data needlessly, and I think inadvisably on an uncompressed recorder.

 

All that said, £15k is not much for a camera of this class.

 

Phil

[Mark Allen]

If 35mm film has a contrast range of 80, the drake has 70 and pal minidv has 35 or so. At least thats what they told me! And think of the date rate and the 4:4:4 color compression. Over 400mbit/s in comparision to the 60 or so of the HVX200 in 720P!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My main concerns about the Drake:

 

- The lattitude does not seem as wide as you describe here when looking at their footage - I'm seeing plenty of clipping - just about the same as I'd see from an f900.

- Last I read they were having to post process to remove some odd pattern noise

- I think it is rated at an ASA 40 or something very very low.

- I think not including a sound recorder to "be like a film camera" is silly when presynched files would be a great time saver in post.

 

Otherwise, I love the effort and idea.

[Phil Rhodes]

Well, it seems to be quite editable, even on basic equipment. Dropped about one frame in ten - I was pleasantly surprised.

 

And now I'm wandering far off topic, for which I apologise.

[Michael Maier]

All that said, £15k is not much for a camera of this class.

 

I think to spend this type of money in a homemade camera with no big company behind it is very risk. Also, 4:4:4 720p 8 bits, will it really be different from 4:2:2 720p 8 bits? Heck the HVX will do 1080 in 24p. Will the harsle of having all this processing problems, color problems (very washed out colors ) no sound recording and no solid company support be worth the difference? Specially for the double of a HVX200?

[Christoph Heimer]

I think to spend this type of money in a homemade camera with no big company behind it is very risk. Also, 4:4:4 720p 8 bits, will it really be different from 4:2:2 720p 8 bits? Heck the HVX will do 1080 in 24p. Will the harsle of having all this processing problems,  color problems (very washed out colors ) no sound recording and no solid company support be worth the difference? Specially for the double of a HVX200?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't say anything about the scale which the company will have once it is founded, but i'm sure, that you will have very good support, at least if you live in europe. I don't even know if they want to ship the camera to u.s. ... :huh:

 

But 4:4:4 720p 8 bits COMPLETELY UNCOMPRESSED will definitly be a lot better than DVCPRO HD of HVX200.

And what you allyways forget is the possbility of mounting lenses of all kind on this camera which gives you the possibilty of having a DOF like 35mm if you have (like we have ;) ) a f0,7 Schneider lense.

You are allways complaining about the washed out colors. I saw an example clip where the colors were everything but not undersaturated. Wait a few weeks (maybe two or three) and we will have some OWN test footage.

[Michael Maier]

I can't say anything about the scale which the company will have once it is founded, but i'm sure, that you will have very good support, at least if you live in europe. I don't even know if they want to ship the camera to u.s. ...  :huh:

 

But 4:4:4 720p 8 bits COMPLETELY UNCOMPRESSED will definitly be a lot better than DVCPRO HD of HVX200.

And what you allyways forget is the possbility of mounting lenses of all kind on this camera which gives you the possibilty of having a DOF like 35mm if you have (like we have ;) ) a f0,7 Schneider lense.

You are allways complaining about the washed out colors. I saw an example clip where the colors were everything but not undersaturated. Wait a few weeks (maybe two or three) and we will have some OWN test footage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess you are right about 4:4:4 uncompressed. But 8 bit only?

 

Anyway, although I think the price is pretty steep for a home made system, if they would offer the camera only, it would maybe be cheaper. I mean, lots of people already have a mattebox, follow focus with rods and HD monitor. So why pay but them again?

Edited April 26, 2005 by Michael Maier

[Jon Allen]

I guess you are right about 4:4:4 uncompressed. But 8 bit only?

 

Anyway, although I think the price is pretty steep for a home made system, if they would offer the camera only, it would maybe be cheaper. I mean, lots of people already have a mattebox, follow focus with rods and HD monitor. So why pay but them again?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think what you already have for gear is retrospective of your *true* intrests. Like myself, I don't have a portable HD monitor, but I have a couple huge hard drives sitting around unused (for now)- so for me it would be better if they chopped the price of their own harddrive and gave me the option to use my own.

What it looks like they're trying to do is present an all-in-one HD solution- not a "build your own" system which just offers the bare parts- which is probably the wiser marketing strategies for a no-name HD manufacturer.

[Michael Maier]

I think what you already have for gear is retrospective of your *true* intrests. Like myself, I don't have a portable HD monitor, but I have a couple huge hard drives sitting around unused (for now)- so for me it would be better if they chopped the price of their own harddrive and gave me the option to use my own.

What it looks like they're trying to do is present an all-in-one HD solution- not a "build your own" system which just offers the bare parts- which is probably the wiser marketing strategies for a no-name HD manufacturer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think so too. I think they will sell way less if they stick with the "is the whole system or nothing" strategy. Maybe they will realize that and change their strategy.

[Jon Allen]

On the contrary, my point was that they're selling a complete solution for HD. It's like asking sony to take the LCD off the Z1U.

Regardless of how many they sell, I'm pretty impressed well from what I see, especially for the price. If it's proven a little more, I can see a lot more indie producers going this route in the near future.

[Michael Maier]

On the contrary, my point was that they're selling a complete solution for HD. It's like asking sony to take the LCD off the Z1U.

Regardless of how many they sell, I'm pretty impressed well from what I see, especially for the price. If it's proven a little more, I can see a lot more indie producers going this route in the near future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That's different. It's more like Sony telling you they won't sell you a F900 if you don't buy a mattebox, an LCD monitor (The Z1 is different. It's a flip out integrated), rods, focus pulling, a case, batteries, charger and power supply. It's trying to obrigate the customer to buy accessories. Those are accessories.

 

You know, it reminds me of the famous scam where camcorder stores sell cameras for cheap, but they won't sell you the camera wihtout their over priced accessories. Like Broadway Photo does.

Edited April 27, 2005 by Michael Maier

[Mark Allen]

Like Broadway Photo does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Broadway Photo is also one of the most notorious gray market sellers. They also currently sport a reseller rating of .42 on a scale of 0 to 10 http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1995.html

[Michael Maier]

Broadway Photo is also one of the most notorious gray market sellers.  They also currently sport a reseller rating of .42 on a scale of 0 to 10  http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1995.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's why I mentioned them. They are just bad business. Call them and try to buy a acamera. You won't be able to buy the camera if you don't buy all the accessories they push on you.

Edited April 27, 2005 by Michael Maier

[Jon Allen]

Broadway Photo is also one of the most notorious gray market sellers.  They also currently sport a reseller rating of .42 on a scale of 0 to 10  http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1995.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ouch.

 

I think the biggest difference between the f900 and the drake camera the fact that you can buy 5+ drakes for the price of one 900.

The drake cam is a "system solution", that's all I'm saying. Same way the Z1U is, though not necessarily exactly, obviosly.

And yes, I agree, for established shooters it would be a boon if you didn't have to buy all the stuff with the camera. But I think the point of the drake system is that for 20grand you've got yourself full HD and you don't have to buy anything else, that's pretty nice for someone just starting to head to HD.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Am I the only person who's noticed the horrendous patterning? Look in nearly-horizontal or vertical sparks in the forge shot. I really, seriously hope that's the internet video compression, but it doesn't look like any MPEG-4 I ever saw before.

 

Phil

[Michael Maier]

Ouch.

 

I think the biggest difference between the f900 and the drake camera the fact that you can buy 5+ drakes for the price of one 900.

 

That's really not the point here. Why is it a system if you have to buy accessories with it? Accessories mean, they are optional. You don't need a mattebox to use Darke, you don't need a follow focus, you don't need rods, all you need is the camera, viewfinder and HDDs. The funny thing is that they obrigate you to buy the accessories, which should be optional, but don't even include a lens I tell you why they want to sell it with the accessories only. It's because it's a way to jack the price up. Yep. because that camera can't cost more than 5,000 to build and that's already a lot. So they throw in 2000 in accessories to make it look like you are getting more. A real system would be camera, viewfinder, HDDs and lens. Accessories are just that, accessories. They are not needed to use a system. They just add to it.

It's very funny though that they want to make you buy lens accessories, but don't seel a lens with it. Hilarious.