Jump to content

No Pay Interns


Recommended Posts

Anyone that has had problems will know it is far better the have a professional Trade Union Representative stand up for him them, than have to face producers on their own.

 

A union is only as strong as its members and producers, as we see here, are keen to say that they have no value.

 

BECTU has agreements with Channel Four, BBC, has agreements with commercial companies, and is negotiating a feature film agreement with PACT.

 

BECTU organized on won better conditions on the film "Les Mis" where Make Up and Costumes were working extremely long hours.

 

The best paid workers are in the union.

 

Are you really that stupid as not to know what happens when films and manufacturing are moved to the detriment of society?

 

As unemployment, homelessness and anger increase in society will it be a good place to live?

 

I prefer to die penniless than live on my knees or be such a talentless poop that has to use desperate Romanians to make their unwatchable films.

Edited by Tim Tyler
strike text
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer to die penniless than live on my knees or be such a talentless poop that has to use desperate Romanians to make their unwatchable films.

 

By all first hand accounts I've received from fellow film professionals who have shot in Romania, the crews are excellent and hard working. There is no need to insult the Romanians just because you're Polish and live in the UK and you think you are better than they are. The films made in Romania are hardly "unwatchable."

 

The music for my last film was created in Prague, 100% by Czech citizens. The number of positive comments I have received from buyers and viewers on the score is through the roof! Few films have a score that sounds so big. I used a 50 piece live orchestra. Which would never have been possible in North America. Once again I found the Eastern Europeans to have incredible amounts of talent and an amazing work ethic.

 

If work is leaving the UK for Romania one can see why after reading your posts and listening to your massive sense of self importance and your overwhelming feeling of entitlement. The world owes you nothing Maxim. Just like the world owes me nothing as well. The free market is my judge when I finish a movie.

 

R,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unpaid jobs are simply the worst. I think if a profitable company can't pay interns then they should be labelled as illegitimate exploiters. The sooner the UK government steps in an stops unpaid "jobs" the better.

 

I think that small independent films, such as student films can be okay. Usually everyone is on the same level with no money and can benefit more from learning from other people. Having said that I organised a student film not so long ago and even I managed to pay the actors and the crew a small fee for their time and effort. It wasn't much, but it's just courtesy more than anything.

 

Larger companies will argue the same, that the unpaid intern will learn from them. But since when does making cups of coffee and printing photocopies count as learning? If you were to argue they would say it's bad attitude. I'm not saying walk in and demand an office, but there are limits.

 

I recently worked on an independent feature which had some recognisable names in the title. For 4 weeks I worked 12 hour days unpaid sleeping in a cold unheated room. I got talked to like dog poop most days by the Assistant Directors, some of the rudest people I have ever come across. My tasks included making cups of tea for people and taking out the bins. That was about it. Once I got asked to carry a box for a spark. I kept my mouth shut though for the duration of the shoot, hoping for some renumeration or contact details at the end of the shoot.

 

After the shoot finished, I emailed about 30 members of the crew asking if they would take a look at my work. Not a single one of them replied. I understand that they are not contractually obliged to look, but again it's just courtesy. It would have taken them five seconds for them to reply and say they are not interested.

 

Maybe I had a bad experience, but I really had to consider what I wanted to do with my life afterwards. I don't really want to work in an industry full of unscrupulous and nasty people. I still haven't decided. I realise this unpaid malarky is not limited to the film industry.

 

At the end of the day, if you provide a service and give up your time, you should be paid for it.

 

Also one last thing. The other factor to consider is reputation. I recently got told by an Art Director to either charge full price or work for free, but do not work on the cheap. I would consider not working as a pushover as an addition to that list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I got talked to like dog poop most days by the Assistant Directors, some of the rudest people I have ever come across.

 

Well tough to argue with you on that point. :D

 

R,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

For what it's worth Peter, that sounds just like a super bad experience more so than anything else. Granted, "interning" jobs are normally pretty crap; but still I think a good number of people, not most, but a good number, would make the time for a quick e mail back. I know I always do when people from sets tangentially e mail me something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good to hear that there are good people out there, I'm sure there are. And I should add that in fairness one person did forward my details to someone who needed a production assistant a few months later, which was nice of them. And the producer gave me a reference. Overall though the whole experience was pretty shoddy though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Even in the pay world, and perhaps especially the ULB world I seem to be in , there are quite a few shoddy experiences. Still; though perhaps out of some monk-like sense of atonement I keep on doing it. But I also notice that the longer one hangs in the better it gets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

Bear in mind that working in Commercials is hard work, your treated like poop, have to pander to fools but make a good wage. Only do a low budget or a freebee if you can do what you want & have fun. I shot a feature in the summer 28 long days, best fun I ever had in 35 years however I would have earned more on a 3 day commercial.

 

We all have a choice.....I could have sat on the beach but chose to work with a Director who has given me a huge amount of fully paid work over the last 5 years. Yes it was worth it & will happily do the same next August if he has written another script :D

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

I think that's the thing, really.

 

There's a huge difference between working for free for a director who's given you lots of paid work in the past, and working for nothing for people from whom you have never heard before and will never hear again.

 

Normally, discounts come after a relationship has been established. Movie people seem to forget this.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Also one last thing. The other factor to consider is reputation. I recently got told by an Art Director to either charge full price or work for free, but do not work on the cheap. I would consider not working as a pushover as an addition to that list.

 

That is actually really good advice. It's not just about reputation too but certainly if you work for too cheap it makes it seem like you are available for cheap whereas if you do something for free it should be more clear it was a favour for the love of the project and is unrelated to what you normally charge. Also there is the fact that if you are paid some low wage they may treat you like cheap labour whereas if you work for free you would hope they were grateful for the favour.

 

Watch out for anyone trying to make out like they are doing YOU a huge favour to work on their project for free tho!

You can spot those types a mile away. Run away, very very fast.

 

Freya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

I missed this.

 

 

 

your massive sense of self importance

 

A lot of this thread has involved claims of exceptionalism for producers.

 

Obviously, it's not appropriate for crew to be self important. But producers just are important, right?

 

I think we get it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

I missed this.

 

 

 

 

A lot of this thread has involved claims of exceptionalism for producers.

 

Obviously, it's not appropriate for crew to be self important. But producers just are important, right?

 

I think we get it.

This thread is slowly but surely mutating into "Freelance Living Wage".... :D

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see it now, the 2015 Academy Awards, best picture is announced....it's XYZ Film!

 

The announcers begin.....here come the grips down to the stage, followed by the electrical crew, now the catering staff, and the greens staff, here come all the PAs and runners, next the camera crew...wow the 1st AC is actually being carried he's so important, here come the painters and set dressers, the security guards,

 

25 minutes passes....

 

Okay the films entire crew is on stage, and each member of the crew will now receive their own Oscar and get to make an acceptance speech, sit back and relax folks this is gonna be a long night....

 

Here comes the first of 17 grips to the podium....

 

R,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

I can see it now, the 2015 Academy Awards, best picture is announced....it's XYZ Film!

 

The announcers begin.....here come the grips down to the stage, followed by the electrical crew, now the catering staff, and the greens staff, here come all the PAs and runners, next the camera crew...wow the 1st AC is actually being carried he's so important, here come the painters and set dressers, the security guards,

 

25 minutes passes....

 

Okay the films entire crew is on stage, and each member of the crew will now receive their own Oscar and get to make an acceptance speech, sit back and relax folks this is gonna be a long night....

 

Here comes the first of 17 grips to the podium....

 

R,

Wannabe producers can be pretty much summed up thusly:

 

"I've just assembled an IKEA dog house, (and only had 6 parts left over), so now I'm gonna build a duplicate of the Empire State Building...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

By all first hand accounts I've received from fellow film professionals who have shot in Romania, the crews are excellent and hard working. There is no need to insult the Romanians just because you're Polish and live in the UK and you think you are better than they are. The films made in Romania are hardly "unwatchable."

 

The music for my last film was created in Prague, 100% by Czech citizens. The number of positive comments I have received from buyers and viewers on the score is through the roof! Few films have a score that sounds so big. I used a 50 piece live orchestra. Which would never have been possible in North America. Once again I found the Eastern Europeans to have incredible amounts of talent and an amazing work ethic.

 

If work is leaving the UK for Romania one can see why after reading your posts and listening to your massive sense of self importance and your overwhelming feeling of entitlement. The world owes you nothing Maxim. Just like the world owes me nothing as well. The free market is my judge when I finish a movie.

 

R,

I think that East European film makers are on the same great level as other film makers. I europe we have seen a lot of East European films, they are not shown in North America.

 

Romanians are quite capable of making their own films with their own POV on the world. What you are talking about is hiring them for cheap labour. You not going to make a Romanian script or employ a Romanian director. In fact most films that are moved to save money bring in most heads of department.

 

This means that technicians have no prospect of moving up and there is less or no work for directors, cameramen or art directors.

 

Producers who can't raise enough money for their projects in their own countries use cheap labor to make films the world doesn't want.

 

Of course East Europeans seem more motivated you are paying them more than the local rate. If you double the wages of crews in the US and UK you will motivate your crew too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

 

This means that technicians have no prospect of moving up and there is less or no work for directors, cameramen or art directors.

 

Not correct, the individual technicians will be in greater demand & will be able to command a higher pay check in future, thats how it works is a capitalist system :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What you are talking about is hiring them for cheap labour. You not going to make a Romanian script or employ a Romanian director. In fact most films that are moved to save money bring in most heads of department.

 

This is EXACTLY what Hollywood does in Canada. Except the labour is not cheap by any standards. The labour is subsidized via tax credits. So it's "cheaper" for the US studio.

 

R,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

This has been very interesting to me. What strikes me is that in the "Hollywood Studio System", we cannot hire unpaid labor. They must be on payroll to satisfy any and all liability issues. I'm sure that this problem exists in the non-union, independent markets but that would never fly in the big leagues.

 

G

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

I've insured several short films and I've never seen a specific insurance clause that requires everyone to be paid - this is on small stuff at the $10k budget sort of level. Probably they're working on the assumption that, this being the UK where unpaid work is technically illegal, it won't be a factor. It's a grim truth that we're very, very good at misusing the word "intern" to excuse it, though, and I would fully expect to be hung out to dry by the insurers if a problem occurred.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

, and I would fully expect to be hung out to dry by the insurers if a problem occurred.

 

Are you saying you've had unpaid labour on your sets?

 

R,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

I've insured several short films and I've never seen a specific insurance clause that requires everyone to be paid -"

 

 

 

We have a mandatory state run insurance called "worker's compensation". If you are hurt on the job, the employer initiates the medical insurance to cover the employee's medical expenses and disability if necessary. But this only applies if you are an employee (on payroll). This is why the studios won't take on the liability of unpaid labor. I always have a camera PA and that is always a paid position.

 

G

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Premium Member

 

Are you saying you've had unpaid labour on your sets?

 

R,

I don't really understand the issue here. Oddly enough I had this very conversation with a group of young people at a party last night,

The "birthday girl" had her makeup done by one of her friends (who actually did a very nice job), and she mentioned that she was interested in getting into film and TV work and wasn't sure how to go about it.

So I said that she might be able start by offering to work for free on a couple of student films, or similar low/no budget productions. That way she would have something to show when she started looking for paid jobs. (You don't actually have to tell people that you worked for free).

The strange thing is, people will think nothing of spending thousands of dollars of somebody's hard-earned money on courses of dubious relevance, but baulk at the idea getting some experience by doing unpaid work, which financially amounts to the same thing.

What does it matter if they're "exploiting" beginners; at the end of the day you're still going to learn something; it's not going to cost you anything, as like as not you will also pick up a lot of other stuff when you're standing around waiting and most importantly, you get to talk to other industry people (the all important "networking").

But the most important thing is "Be nice".

I think Richard has that pretty well nailed, some of you here will need to work on that.

 

The successful producer is the one who makes a point of going round and speaking personally to every person on the set , regardless of how lowly their position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The successful producer is the one who makes a point of going round and speaking personally to every person on the set , regardless of how lowly their position.

 

*cough*...*gag*....what the *bleep* are you saying now? Are you nuts?

 

Didn't you read the other thread? At Maxim and Phil's suggestion I am dressing as a pharaoh on my next shoot, and I am shooting in Romania where it is legal to actually whip the crew.

 

R,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's an actual scenario that plays out, for real....producer takes movie to Romania, hires all non-union Romanian crew. Discovers that the Romanian crew is actually vastly superior to the ones he worked with in North America. The movie is made for a fraction of the amount it would of cost in Canada or the USA. Producer sails onto even greater profits as his break even point is far lower than what it would of been if he shot in Western Europe or North America.

 

The embellishment added for comedic effect:

 

Maxim Ford dies penniless in a London hospital. Having not been able to secure any work for over 15 years. Every job he applied for was quickly scooped up by a young twenty-something who got a RED camera for Christmas.

 

R,

You know I am getting sick of that bull5hit argument. This country earned it's right to make a decent living wage and a strong middle class until very recently some cowboy ass-clowns at the top decided they needed to take everything they could steal from those who helped build their companies and started caring about nothing but the bottom line and what was best for them. This is MY country and MY people and my fellow Americans deserve the security and freedom from want they worked their asses off to secure. American crews deserve the money the earn. They fought long and hard to get fair wages and benefits, The only reason I would shoot overseas is if the script called for that kind of terrain and ambiance but fortunately America has virtually every type of tarrain there is. If crew people in Eastern Europe want to have fair wages that they can feed their families on and have a decent standard of living with, then lent them fight for their unions and their laws. I will film in the USA at every opportunity that comes up. The people I have worked with on set in this country are the very definition of cinema professionals. In California alone there is more know how than anywhere else on Earth. The American film industry has pushed the envelope since Edison invented motion pictures and the moment Edwin Potter made the first feature film. From Birth of a Nation to Inception, the US has and continues to be ahead of the curve and there is no other country I would rather work in.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...