Bumpy road for features and new DP's ahead.

[Bill DiPietra]

You can take this debate about "The Dawn of American Independent Cinema" all the way back to the Silent Era when D.W. Griffith, Mary Pickford, Charlie Chaplin & Douglas Fairbanks formed United Artists in 1919.

 

It all depends on what kind of historical perspective you wish to take.

[Guest]

It's most interesting however to observe how notions of independent cinema have changed over the years. :)

 

It's not uncommon these days to see "independent" movies with budgets passing 75 million.

 

I put independent in quotes because technically independent just means not made by one of the six Hollywood majors.

 

I can tell you this, it won't be long before Walmart execs start reading scripts, and either commissioning their own direct to DVD titles, or partnering with a producer(s) to make them. Being the world's largest retailer with 3500 stores in the USA gives them enormous power.

 

Watch how they market my latest film, it's coming out in March as a "Walmart Exclusive." Which means a lot of in store marketing at their US locations.

 

R,

[Freya Black]

 

I guess it depends how you define independent cinema. I should have been more specific. I've seen every film you mention. Ed Wood had a budget of 18 million dollars. Robert Rodriguez had a budget of $8,000. It's interesting that you point, Freya, to Orson Welles as an independent filmmaker... Perhaps given the time period, and his refusal throughout his career to work with producers for fear of losing his vision in the process, he might be considered an independent filmmaker. But Citizen Kane had a budget of $700,000, which, accounting for inflation is a 13.2 million dollar budget. Shall I go on? Almost all of the films you hail as independent cinema had budgets at least twice as big as El Mariachi if not many times more. It's not say that they don't represent independent cinema, but only that I was referring I suppose, to a small niche of independent cinema-- the minimal budget independent cinema. So you might say we're both right. You are looking at the broader picture of the industry over a 60 year period. I was focused on a 5 year period in the early 90's-- given the conversation had shifted to Robert Rodriguez's specific impact on the industry-- which is undeniable, regardless of whether or not one thinks El Mariachi is in fact, a great film.

 

It's most interesting however to observe how notions of independent cinema have changed over the years. :)

 

er, Tim Burtons "Ed Wood" was not an independent movie. I was suggesting you should see it! It was more Ed Wood I was thinking of than Tim Burton!!! You were suggesting that people didn't just go out and make movies unless they had hundreds and thousands of dollars. Well that's not true. Ed Wood went out and tried to make movies with whatever he could lay his hands on.

 

I think you need to look more into the work of Orson Welles than at Citizen Kane etc. He made a lot of films independently and is famous for this. Same with John Cassavetes, yes he starred in Rosemary's Baby but he used the money from the movies he starred in to direct small independent movies. It's not me that is hailing these directors as being a part of independent cinema, they have long been accepted as the canon of independent cinema. My point was independent cinema didn't magically pop up with Robert Rodriguez like you implied by saying "El Mariachi was the beginning of the emergence of independent cinema".

 

As to budgets, it's never really been about the budgets. This is a more recent thing to make it all about how much the movie cost to make. However I can imagine that Superstar: The Karen Carpenter story could well have been made for LESS than El Mariachi

but you are right that there are few films that have been made as cheaply as El Mariachi both before or since. Primer is the only example that springs to mind. In fact theres very few indie movies being shot on film at all these days.

 

I note you have also moved your goalposts from "hundreds of thousands of dollars" to "budgets at least twice as big as El Mariachi", so we are talking movies made for less than $18,000 now! Thats a big jump all of a sudden.

 

Anyway I should point out that I wasn't listing movies based on their budgets but works that are considered important to independent cinema. El Mariachi is just a more recent example in a long history.

 

...and for the record "El Mariachi" is my fave Robert Rodriguez movie. It's great! :)

 

Freya

Edited February 1, 2014 by Freya Black

[Phil Rhodes]

Do I need to explain why Rodriguez and El Mariachi are not very good bases on which to base this sort of argument? Again?

[Freya Black]

 

It's not uncommon these days to see "independent" movies with budgets passing 75 million.

 

Yup $130 million for "The Hunger Games: Catching Fire", and I'm sure all the stuff Megan Ellison is putting out isn't exactly low budget either!

 

That along with all those naff studio made "indie movies" (Good Grief!) has made the whole thing become a bit meaningless, which is I guess why Jason is scrutinizing the budgets to try and make it all make sense.

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

I've seen every film you mention.

 

 

I find it odd that someone who has seen Matewan, Superstar: The Karen Carpenter Story, Poison, Killer of Sheep, Two Lane Blacktop, Eraserhead, Slacker, Down By Law and the entire works of Cassavetes would think that independent cinema was something that happened for a few years in the 90's and was started by Robert Rodriguez!

 

Freya

[Bill DiPietra]

For once, Phil, you and I agree 100%. Amazing. ;)

[Jason Outenreath]

 

I find it odd that someone who has seen Matewan, Superstar: The Karen Carpenter Story, Poison, Killer of Sheep, Two Lane Blacktop, Eraserhead, Slacker, Down By Law and the entire works of Cassavetes would think that independent cinema was something that happened for a few years in the 90's and was started by Robert Rodriguez!

 

Freya

 

Hey, I just wanted to have a friendly discussion about the topic. No need to get defensive Freya. I was a cinema studies major in college, so I am a bit of a cinephile and watch hundreds of films each year. However, I readily admit that I don't know the precise histories of every film I've seen. Thank you for sharing your knowledge on some of those histories, even if it is in a condescending tone, I appreciate the opportunity to learn new things about the films I love.

[Michael LaVoie]

Christine Vachon spoke at my film school once about being an independent producer. It was inspiring listening to her and watching her play trailers for Swoon, Safe, Kids, etc. on VHS on a TV. Then talk about how she got to where she did. 13 years later I saw this talk she gave on the state of indie film. Scroll down to watch the video.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Michael LaVoie

[Freya Black]

 

Hey, I just wanted to have a friendly discussion about the topic. No need to get defensive Freya. I was a cinema studies major in college, so I am a bit of a cinephile and watch hundreds of films each year. However, I readily admit that I don't know the precise histories of every film I've seen. Thank you for sharing your knowledge on some of those histories, even if it is in a condescending tone, I appreciate the opportunity to learn new things about the films I love.

 

Defensive!!? Am I being attacked? That's kind of a weird thing to say.

 

I was just explaining why I went to the trouble to list all of those movies that you have already seen!

 

I assumed you couldn't have known about them, but I guess these days it's easy to see all of this stuff outside of any context, so I guess that makes sense.It reminds me of a lot of old paintings that have become adrift from their context and found new ones. I didn't expect that to happen so fast with movies but I guess everything is faster these days.

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

Christine Vachon spoke at my film school once about being an independent producer. It was inspiring listening to her and watching her play trailers for Swoon, Safe, Kids, etc. on VHS on a TV. Then talk about how she got to where she did. 13 years later I saw this talk she gave on the state of indie film. Scroll down to watch the video.

 

This is a great posting that manages to tie together the disparate parts of this thread! Amazing! :)

Thanks for that, it's really interesting.

 

Freya

[Paul Watt]

No-one's mentioned commercials for some reason. They make a ton of them, they shoot all over the place, they're fun to do, pay well, and you meet tons of new people each job. It's a good way to get tons of experience shooting different styles, and with different gear.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Paul Watt

[Guest]

Yes Paul but it's not "glamorous" like the movie industry. :D

 

R,

[Will Barber]

My experience working on commercial sets has pretty much taught me that I'll do anything to avoid making commercials.

[Phil Rhodes]

They pay quite well.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Hell I'd love to have fun on a few commercials here and again-- at their best, they're pretty fantastic, and at their worst, they're a good pay check and generally no need for a hotel room.

[Adam Frisch FSF]

Well commercials suffer from the reverse barriers. When you start out doing music videos, all you hear for the first 10 years trying to break into commercials is: "sure he can light pretty pictures, but can he do dialogue?". Then, when you finally crack it ever so slightly after 10 years of hard slog, they start all over again with films/tv: "sure he can do dialogue in commercials, but can he do long form narrative?". You can't win… :blink: :rolleyes: I'm sure the reverse is true for feature shooters: "sure he can do dialogue/cars/beauty/night/liquids in film, but can he do it in 30 seconds?"…..

 

If you want a good living in this business, then it's all about specialisation. For those DP's (like myself) that resist cinematographic type casting and fight it, it gets less secure and you will have less work. They want you to be good at one thing and one thing only. That makes them feel safe. If you want a secure living, then the best thing you can do is to learn how to became a table top shooter, a liquids specialist or a car guy. Those guys make more money than anyone else and that's all they do. But I couldn't imagine spending my whole life shooting cereals dropping into milk at 1000fps. Cars maybe, but not cereal. ;)

[Paul Watt]

Well commercials suffer from the reverse barriers. When you start out doing music videos, all you hear for the first 10 years trying to break into commercials is: "sure he can light pretty pictures, but can he do dialogue?". Then, when you finally crack it ever so slightly after 10 years of hard slog, they start all over again with films/tv: "sure he can do dialogue in commercials, but can he do long form narrative?". You can't win… :blink: :rolleyes: I'm sure the reverse is true for feature shooters: "sure he can do dialogue/cars/beauty/night/liquids in film, but can he do it in 30 seconds?"…..

 

If you want a good living in this business, then it's all about specialisation. For those DP's (like myself) that resist cinematographic type casting and fight it, it gets less secure and you will have less work. They want you to be good at one thing and one thing only. That makes them feel safe. If you want a secure living, then the best thing you can do is to learn how to became a table top shooter, a liquids specialist or a car guy. Those guys make more money than anyone else and that's all they do. But I couldn't imagine spending my whole life shooting cereals dropping into milk at 1000fps. Cars maybe, but not cereal. ;)

 

Haha. Well said. Getting known as the guy who does "blank" is a good plan. I'm a guy that can ski anywhere with 80 pounds of gear, and then shoot it well. But that can be a pretty limiting definition to a career, for sure.

[Guest]

You can't win… :blink: :rolleyes: I'm sure the reverse is true for feature shooters: "sure he can do dialogue/cars/beauty/night/liquids in film, but can he do it in 30 seconds?"…..

 

A few years back I looked into doing episodic TV as a director. I was told in no uncertain terms, you're a feature director you can't do this, now bugger off!!

 

Well at least I know what to say if an episodic TV director ever asks to direct one of my films. Or more precisely I know what to tell his agent. <_<

 

R,

[Mark Kenfield]

And so the circle of life continues... :p

[Michael LaVoie]

 

A few years back I looked into doing episodic TV as a director. I was told in no uncertain terms, you're a feature director you can't do this, now bugger off!!

 

Well at least I know what to say if an episodic TV director ever asks to direct one of my films. Or more precisely I know what to tell his agent. <_<

 

R,

I don't fully understand that. Keith Gordon was one of my favorite indie filmmakers who is now doing mostly episodic TV like Dexter, etc. Nicole Holofcener's another good example. Usually if I see a really good episode of anything, I'll check who the director was and almost always, it's someone who's done really great indie features. There work tends to stand out.

[Guest]

Episodic TV producers are terrified that Mr. Feature Director will take the entire day to light one shot, do three takes, and call it a day. Yes the page count is much higher per day in TV than on a Hollywood tent pole. But low budget features struggle with the same cost control issues that episodic TV does. So you'd think there would be a kinship there.

 

Anyway, who wants to do boring old TV anyway? I have to create my "art." :rolleyes:

 

R,

[Stuart Brereton]

 

I can tell you this, it won't be long before Walmart execs start reading scripts, and either commissioning their own direct to DVD titles, or partnering with a producer(s) to make them. Being the world's largest retailer with 3500 stores in the USA gives them enormous power.

 

Already been done in the UK. Tesco, Britain's largest supermarket chain partnered up with a French production co. to produce a whole slew of direct to DVD films a couple of years ago. I've no idea what happened to the partnership, but it was big film news for a while there.

[Miguel Angel]

I agree with Richard on everything, if you want to get more jobs, don't stop shooting, get into spec commercials, short - films, indie productions, etc..

 

I know it's very difficult to move back to a no - budget short - film when you have shot the last Jay Z music video and the last BMW commercial, but if you have time to spare, why not?

 

If I could, I would work 366 days yearly for the rest of my life because filming is what I love the most and my passion (even if I'm just a 2nd AC), and if I'm not filming a commercial or a movie, I'm shooting a short - film with my friends or taking photos around my island :)

 

And I'm telling you something, if somebody would ask me: Do you wanna be a cinematographer shooting commercials for the rest of your life 300 days per year? I'd say "of course" and then I would use the money to shoot something else with my friends or new directors, oh wait, that's what I do now ha :D

 

Adam, take a look at Rodrigo Prieto or Chivo, they went through all the way you have written, and they made it because they were (and they are) stubborn and super hard - workers, they do features, music videos, installations, short - films, etc, etc.. and they started from the scratch too.. so stop complaining :P

 

I don't know how it works in the States or North Europe but around here you don't see either commitment or passion in 90% of the workers of this industry, they shoot something because it is what they do, and they do it as they could be in an office 8 hours per day.. they even say: I just need to get 3 or 4 days this month and then I can spend the rest of it resting and doing nothing.

 

Shooting is so much fun!!

[David Mullen ASC]

If you don't care what you shoot, then there is plenty of work for any skilled technicians. The problem comes when you actually want to work on something meaningful in some way, something that allows you to express yourself as a visual artist, something that excites you personally. Those types of jobs are not as commonplace, there is more competition for them, and you have to keep adjusting the course of your career to keep in line for that type of work -- taking any work just to be working can sometimes lead you away from the work you eventually want to be doing. To some degree you have to imagine how your resume looks to other people when you are going after a job you want, you do too many low-budget features, especially genre movies, and you might not be taken seriously by the producer of a bigger project, and the same thing can happen in TV work too. It's easy to get typecast.