Gripping: Where on earth do I start?

[Guest Stephen Murphy]

We simply don't do that sort of thing round here.

 

Yes of course one would expect these things to be trained and insured, but that's not really the point: stuff at that level is done in the UK so microscopically rarely that I would expect to go my whole life and never see it done (actually I have seen it done, but only under exceptional circumstances).

 

P

 

Phil

I'm sorry but you're wrong again. This is exactly the kind of quality work that grips do on a daily basis all over the world, including here in the uk - there's a reason that Panavision kept the only 100ft technocrane in the uk - because it was in demand on features here all year long.

 

I'm going to assume that you've had a bad experience with a crew in the past and it's lead you to feel this way. All I can say is don't let your limited experience cloud your judgement - most of the crews I've worked with around the world were all top notch guys. The crews in this country are excellent. The uk industry has an astonishing array of talent and last year it was put to use on DOZENS and DOZENS of features, never mind tv drama and commercials. If you wanted to be a part of that business you could be, you're a very smart guy I've no doubt, but you seem to have convinced yourself that the industry is against you for some reason. It's not.

 

The sad thing here is that you're so well written and so full of conviction that you're also doing damage to the younger members of this forum that come here looking for advice. You need to be honest with the experience you have, which as you freely admit is limited. You shouldn't write about camera assistants in the uk when, correct me if I'm wrong, you don't work as a camera assistant do you? Are you passing on the experiences of the camera assistants you do work with? I'm assuming you don't work as a grip and you don't seem to work with grips, so why are you slamming grips and their training? And for what it's worth the grip NVQ, while not perfect, is an excellent thing.

 

This isn't an easy industry to survive in regardless of wether you're LA based or UK based, but you can have a healthy career if you put in enough work, persevere and have a little bit of luck. Wether you agree or not you should let these kids at least try and persue their dreams. Maybe they'll have a better experience then you.

[Phil Rhodes]

I just take the position that it's better they know the reality. If this is somehow "damaging" then I'll take the negative karma on the chin; sometimes - in fact, absolutely always - the truth is more important. I wish someone had told me all of this when I was 18. I wouldn't have spent the best years of my life not being able to contribute to a pension or a mortgage while working harder than people who could. And, no, I don't do that anymore, because I'm not completely stupid, so some of my experiences are somewhat historical.

 

But to the main issue. There are not "dozens and dozens" of really well made features done here every year. I suppose on a stupendously good year there might be eight or ten American producers in offices at Pinewood, but the reality is that regardless of the precise numbers if you're looking for one of less than a dozen jobs, it isn't realistic for any individual to look on that as a career choice. That stuff may as well be on mars from where most of us are standing.

 

So the problem is not really the availability of super high end work, which most people won't ever do anyway. The problem is that there is no undercurrent of lower-end but still somewhat reasonably-compensated work. There is the next Bond, and there is a 5D in your mate's bedroom. There is practically nothing else. I know, Stephen, you've been able to do some incredibly accomplished work, but the likes of Coward are a complete aberration: that stuff just does not happen. That's a once-in-ten-years thing, nationwide. It's vanishingly rare. I am not aware of a similar production having being done in the UK, ever.

 

And that's the real, key, core problem here. It's not about the big stuff. Nobody's getting anywhere near the big stuff anyway. It's on mars. It's irrelevant. But I have buddies in LA who certainly don't constantly work on nine-figure action movies and yet they still make a living on the small stuff. You can shoot music videos. You can cut little indie features. You can grade things in your back bedroom and make a living. Not a particularly great living, perhaps, but you can make rent. There are paid short films, even. And that is the key thing we lack.

 

If that was there, if there was a normal, workaday background noise of properly funded production, I would happily recommend people go and work in it. Instead, if you do get a sniff of a hint of a chance at something like that, well, as we've seen recently, you're likely to get your head torn off by an exploding door, because that's just the level we operate at.

 

P

[Guest Stephen Murphy]

But you don't know the reality Phil - that's the point. There ARE dozens of features getting made in the UK. There ARE plenty of camera trainees and trainee grips making a living in this industry every year. And there is also plenty of "small stuff" floating around too. If you look at just the top three diary services for camera crews they each represent at least a dozen focus pullers - how do you think they pay their bills every year? Yes the industry is oversubscribed but it's oversubscribed everywhere - that's not enough of a reason to not try to give it a go.

 

Clearly I'm not going to convince you, I suppose it makes little difference. I'll go back to work now - I've been spending too much time on the internet lately anyway - I'm up early to spend the next 5 days shooting 35mm film on a small job, the kind that you seem to think doesn't happen in the uk.

 

Adios amigos.

 

S.

[Phil Rhodes]

Well okay, name two dozen that were made last year. That had budgets above, say, £500k, because anything less than that is likely to be downright unsafe.

 

P

[Guest Stephen Murphy]

These are mostly just the bigger budget movies and even then just the movies that I know about. There were plenty of smaller indies and TV movies and lots of tv drama. Perhaps others can chime in with other titles.

 

Fury

Guardians of the galaxy

Maleficent

Cinderella

Deus ex machina

Heart of the sea

Locke

Jack Ryan

Monuments men

Philomena

Alan partridge movie

The invisible woman

Cuban fury

Under the skin

The last days on mars

Vampire academy

Edge of tomorrow

Jupiter ascending

Paddington

Exodus

Before I go to sleep

London fields

Mortdecai

Into the woods

Secret service

Man from uncle

 

The legend of Hercules, Hercules 3d, Expendables 3, Dracula untold all shot in Europe but took the majority of their camera and grip crews from the uk.

 

I believe that's two dozen.

[Phil Rhodes]

Well, okay, fine, but most of us are never going to get anywhere near the likes of Jack Ryan, are we...

[Freya Black]

Man from uncle

 

The legend of Hercules, Hercules 3d, Expendables 3, Dracula untold all shot in Europe but took the majority of their camera and grip crews from the uk.

 

I believe that's two dozen.

 

Theres a new Man from Uncle movie!!!

I assume it's not an actual UK production??!

 

Theres always a few UK TV movies every year of course from that little scene and I understand theres been quite a boom the last couple of years in big Hollywood features due to the tax relief. (I dont move in those circles either but I've seen a fair few productions shooting across the road here and can attest to the fact theres been a lot more than usual)

 

Theres stuff going on, but not so much of the mid level stuff as Phil suggests but I think that's the way of the future largely. The UK is just ahead of the curve on that one.

 

Freya

Edited February 20, 2014 by Freya Black

[Freya Black]

Well okay, name two dozen that were made last year. That had budgets above, say, £500k, because anything less than that is likely to be downright unsafe.

 

 

I think most of the ultra low budget stuff is very safe. How dangerous can it be videoing a couple of people talking on a couch lit by battery powered led fixtures. Maybe someone could trip over a lead or the doorway dolly if there is one (more likely to be a slider) but quite frankly someone could seriously hurt themselves cooking breakfast any day of the week because it's a lot more dangerous on the whole.

 

Yeah if you have the money to set off explosives or play with cranes etc then it might not be so safe if you don't know what you are doing but then I never see that going on on tiny productions.

 

Freya

[Brian Drysdale]

You should also bear in mind that many commercials have bigger budgets that many of the low budget feature films. They often have full crews and can have as much grip equipment as a feature film. Many top people never work on features because they're doing very well working on these.

[Freya Black]

You should also bear in mind that many commercials have bigger budgets that many of the low budget feature films. They often have full crews and can have as much grip equipment as a feature film. Many top people never work on features because they're doing very well working on these.

 

Ah commercials! Would love to work on commercials! :)

I have to say for some reason I never seem to run into people doing much of that work. Maybe they keep quiet about it or something.

 

I also note that the cinematography on commercials seems to be plummeting through the floor. Is that because of falling budgets or different attitudes do you think? On the upside they also seem to be becoming more bizzare and surreal but maybe that is because I'm so rarely exposed to TV commercials these days.

 

It's a shame that the bottom has collapsed out of music videos. I find it somewhat odd that now there is a platform where anyone can freely distribute their music video and reach a lot of people, that nobody is very interested in doing them anymore. It used to be that people would spend silly amounts in a desperate attempt to get their video on MTV (who often wouldn't play it anyway) and now people either don't bother with a music video or make some poorly cobbled together thing themselves on their handycam.

 

Freya

[Phil Rhodes]

I used to do a certain amount of what I guess could be called commercials, in the "properly done" sense of the word. This was, for the record, my formative experience with grips who thought they were high end (at least I think they were grips - it was hard to tell through the cloud of cigarette smoke), and electricians who hadn't ever been taught why earthing large numbers of quite big current-mode switching power converters (that is, HMI ballasts) is a good idea.

 

It was:

 

- Quite easy

- Well paid

- Well fed

- Properly organised

- Usually safe

- Quite long working hours, but that's OK because there's overtime and they'll order a massive curry for everyone if it goes on too late.

 

In other words, You Have Arrived.

 

I thoroughly recommend it, although I have next to no idea how you'd go about getting on that stuff these days. I did it through an entirely chance acquaintance, which unfortunately is so often the way with these things, and I was doing something rather particular. If I knew how to get back into it, I'd get back into it myself.

 

In any case, I've a funny feeling that London may be falling out of favour as a centre for this sort of thing. Like so many high points of this place, I fear it may largely be a historical concern. Producing commercials in London seems to me to have been an 80s and 90s thing, and that fifteen or twenty years ago.

 

Why would anyone want to come here to produce slick-looking stuff?

 

P

[Eddie Cole]

God this thread is confusing, So much conflicting information, Im still going to head into the industry, Do running (If I cant support myself right away I have savings to help give me a boost so im not going to become homeless or whatever) for a couple years so I can then get my NVQ (Thats what the grip branch told me is the best route) Do my NVQ then have a full on stab at becoming a top class grip, Eventually moving up to dolly grip (and maybe technocrane/crane work after that) and maybe even look at getting work eslewhere in the world, Namely LA (the us just seems to fit 'me' if that makes sense).

 

 

Its all many many years down the line and thousands of hours of hard work, But Ill be damned if I don't get their! Once Ive got this Diploma out of the way I can get on with it all.

 

 

The only thing so far that I am a little undecided on is; London or manchester, Im leaning a lot towards to london even if it is much higher living cost, Because I feel like thats where all the film work is based and that is where eventually I would like to end up.

 

 

None of the above may make much sense, I am tired and just sort of threw my thoughts at the screen and hoped the would make a sentance

[Stuart Brereton]

The only thing so far that I am a little undecided on is; London or manchester.

 

Don't forget Cardiff is becoming a major production center, with BBC Wales making a lot of Drama, and Pinewood Studios apparently about to set up shop there.

[Eddie Cole]

 

Don't forget Cardiff is becoming a major production center, with BBC Wales making a lot of Drama, and Pinewood Studios apparently about to set up shop there.

 

Thats true, I have family very close to central brsitol so I guess thats an option too.

[Phil Rhodes]

Is Wales offering some sort of tax incentive?

[Mark Dunn]

Is Wales offering some sort of tax incentive?

Not much scope there. The Welsh Assembly has no taxation powers. There could be a business rates deal with the relevant council, I suppose.

The only incentive would be facilities. Or actually liking Wales.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Mark Dunn

[Phil Rhodes]

OK then - is the UK government offering some sort of tax incentive to people shooting in Wales?

 

But seriously. I've been to Wales twice, both times greeted by "english go home" signs and incessant rain. So I did.

 

P

[Freya Black]

Is Wales offering some sort of tax incentive?

 

Don't have a lot of time right now but I think I can answer the question you are trying to ask quickly.

 

Wales doesn't need a tax incentive although I understand the current tax incentive is UK wide.

What Wales has is a lot of cheap land, a very depressed economy and its own government.

 

If we take a look at the ITV production centres of yore, we can see that the surviving ones are in Leeds (only just!) and Wales of all places! Now ITV might try and tell you they have kept the centre in Wales because they are committed to broadcasting in the nations, but it's fairly obvious that they have wanted rid of it for a long time but it isn't worth anything.

 

If we now look at Pinewood, we can see their plans for expansion have been thrwarted due to the fact that Pinewood is located in the South of England where there are plenty of posh houses and lots of NIMBIEism. In Wales they are likely to be welcomed with open arms (or at least more so) and it is not that far away from the south where everything tends to go on in the UK.

 

I do wonder tho, because about 20 years ago or something there was a project to build a large film studio in Wales that went bankrupt before it was completed. I don't know what became of that but if it's still out there maybe it is re-usable.

 

So lots of wide open spaces and cheap land and no doubt sympathetic planning permission. I don't know if that is the real reasons but it seems straightforward and logical to me that this would be the case.

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

God this thread is confusing, So much conflicting information, Im still going to head into the industry, Do running (If I cant support myself right away I have savings to help give me a boost so im not going to become homeless or whatever) for a couple years so I can then get my NVQ (Thats what the grip branch told me is the best route) Do my NVQ then have a full on stab at becoming a top class grip, Eventually moving up to dolly grip (and maybe technocrane/crane work after that) and maybe even look at getting work eslewhere in the world, Namely LA (the us just seems to fit 'me' if that makes sense).

 

The only thing so far that I am a little undecided on is; London or manchester, Im leaning a lot towards to london even if it is much higher living cost, Because I feel like thats where all the film work is based and that is where eventually I would like to end up.

 

 

None of the above may make much sense, I am tired and just sort of threw my thoughts at the screen and hoped the would make a sentance

 

I don't think this thread is confusing at all. In fact it seems to have set you off on totally the right path if your goal is to be a "top class grip" You already contacted the grip branch which is a great first start. You have your trust fund, so you can go and live somewhere and work on getting work where the work is. The thread has pointed out the NVQ which has apparently become quite important in the grip world. Now you just need to find an "in" on some actual work.

 

You talk of going to LA tho. Is that a possibility for you? If so perhaps you should look into going straight to LA and working there rather than messing around on the UK scene. It's better to start out where you want to be than to waste time trying to get there by a convoluted route, if you can. Why waste time!

 

Freya

[Sanjay Sami]

Well, okay, fine, but most of us are never going to get anywhere near the likes of Jack Ryan, are we...

 

Not with your attitude Phil ...

[Brian Drysdale]

A lot of London based people get work on productions shot in Wales. There has been a move to get former London based productions into the regions, an example of this is the Media City in Manchester.

 

I suspect a new or trainee grip will be moving between centres working on different productions, if only because you need to work with a number of key grips for the NVQ.

 

Trainees can stand a chance of working on major features if they're part of an official training scheme.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Brian Drysdale

[Sanjay Sami]

becoming a top class grip, Eventually moving up to dolly grip (and maybe technocrane/crane work after that) and maybe even look at getting work eslewhere in the world, Namely LA (the us just seems to fit 'me' if that makes sense).

 

 

Its all many many years down the line and thousands of hours of hard work, But Ill be damned if I don't get their! Once Ive got this Diploma out of the way I can get on with it all.

 

 

Eddie, armed with determination and THAT attitude, I have no doubt you will succeed.

Please feel free to message either Darryl or myself with any questions you may have as you progress.

I have friends in the UK who are absolutely top notch Grips, and amongst the best you would find anywhere.

Once you are up and running, you would probably wind up working with one of them anyway.

Good luck.

[Phil Rhodes]

Anyone can sit there and bang on about how determined they are and how much they want it.

 

It doesn't actually make anyone any good at anything.

 

Most people do that, and fail anyway.

[Brian Drysdale]

Failure is part of learning, it's the going out and attempting to do it that's important, making the connections and gaining the knowledge that are needed to achieve it. One thing is for sure, failure definitely happens if you don't attempt it. Success is never guaranteed, but doing nothing is failing before you even start.

 

Perhaps this mightn't work out, but you can learn stuff that can be applied to other career paths.

[Phil Rhodes]

Well, yes, Brian, but there's the useful sort of failure: "I put my indie movie up on kickstarter and didn't get much interest;" and then there's the wide-eyed innocent sort of failure: "I'm going to move to London and live off my trust fund while waiting for the film industry to give me a living".

 

The former teaches you something, the latter simply costs you time and money. I've said it a million times, but for the overwhelming majority of people - so near to "all people" as makes no difference - the British film industry, such as it is, will suck away your efforts like the leech it is, and give you nothing in return.