Panasonic P2

[Kent Nason]

Well said David and Jan, I get the point... Usually on high end docs we shoot with super 16, 2/3 inch digital or HD cameras with 1/3inch cameras brought along for those tricky or sensitive situations where a small camera can do what nothing else can. However I recently did a show in the Balkans shot entirely on DV, 100 hrs of tape was shot, how would I handle this with the 200, I mean HVX200? I guess I could carry a number of hard drives and store it that way...? Presently we are prepping for another similar shoot and I would love to work with the best small camera available, the HVX200 may be the one, what would you do Jan?

 

thanks

Kent

 

 

 

The only reason they can offer DVCPROHD recording in an under-$10,000 consumer camera is by not building it with a DVCPROHD deck. Even their cheapest camera with a DVCPRO50 deck is $20,000, and that's a bargain compared to Digital Betacam. I believe the cheapest DVCPROHD camcorder out there is $60,000.

 

The only way to put an HD deck in this consumer camera at this price level would be to go to the highly-compressed consumer HDV route, which Panasonic is trying to avoid. Besides, if you want to shoot and record HDV, there are already cameras out there that offer that.

 

You're not going to see any cheap consumer camera with one of the pro HD tape format decks built into them (HDCAM, DVCPROHD, HD-D5, HDCAM-SR).

 

Eliminating a deck (I'm ignoring the DV one that comes with this camera) gives the manufacturers the ability to offer a wider range of frame rates, resolutions, compression schemes, etc. because it's all just data to be recorded to memory, not some particular video codec that has to be hardwired into a deck, a deck that need recording heads of certain track sizes, etc.

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, it may not be the best choice for a high-volume type of shooting style, but the solution (though expensive) would probably be to get enough P2 cards to get you through a shooting day, or at least to a long lunch break, and download to hard drives. But I don't really see this as an ideal format for large-volume ENG/doc type projects, at least not until the cards get bigger.

[Christopher Bell]

The HVX and P2 have their limitations. If you need longer record times use a Varicam.

 

60 minute DV tapes makes us lazy. I don't see the HVX's limited recording time as a big deal. If the HVX were a 16mm camera, 2 P2 cards would provide about the same record time as 4 400' mags! (720 24 vs 24fps) I don't hear any filmmakers complaining about record time! You simply live within the realities of your gear.

 

P2 is a new way of working. The HVX puts a decent broadcast HD format into a 10K camera. New work flows will be created, but it won't work for every situation. Regardless, I think the limited record time is good. It will force us to shoot for the edit, instead of giving the editor endless miles of footage. I have noticed that younger producers I work for put a great emphasis on quanitity... I think this comes from not working with the limitations of film.

 

Chris Bell

[Kent Nason]

I concur with your thoughts on volume Chris, I'm not so sure about lazy...I think you have hit the nail on the head this may not be the camera for high volume shoot in foreign lands. It is a step in a new and innovative direction, I guess like in film sometimes we shoot 35 and sometimes we shoot 16. I can assure you I get your point on record times, I guess we have to remember we are shooting single system... sometimes a lot of that volume is dedicated to sound recording...we were young once too! Sure don't want to get into that film vs video discussion!

 

From one aching shoulder to another all the best,

Kent

 

The HVX and P2 have their limitations. If you need longer record times use a Varicam.

 

60 minute DV tapes makes us lazy. I don't see the HVX's limited recording time as a big deal. If the HVX were a 16mm camera, 2 P2 cards would provide about the same record time as 4 400' mags! (720 24 vs 24fps) I don't hear any filmmakers complaining about record time! You simply live within the realities of your gear.

 

P2 is a new way of working. The HVX puts a decent broadcast HD format into a 10K camera. New work flows will be created, but it won't work for every situation. Regardless, I think the limited record time is good. It will force us to shoot for the edit, instead of giving the editor endless miles of footage. I have noticed that younger producers I work for put a great emphasis on quanitity... I think this comes from not working with the limitations of film.

 

Chris Bell

[Mike Brennan]

Hi,

 

Yes, I agree, in the broad strokes it's a very good idea - it's just been wrecked by some very silly decisions in the details.

 

Phil

 

Thanks for pointing out these details because they can be show stoppers.

The value of forums is to give end users the heads up on stuff the manufacturers aren't necessarily keen or even aware of...

 

How many bought HDCAM not relaising it was a 1440x1080 format?

How many don't understand that native editing on both Xpri or Apple DVCPROHD does not occur with a mix or colour correction?

 

 

 

Mike Brennan

[Mike Brennan]

To answer the original question from the camera head side of things we don't know, as Panasonic have not released the pixel count of the camera.

 

Varicam records 960 x720 from a 1280 x 720 ccd.

Anything less than these numbers will make for a hard sell.

 

1440 x 1080 highly compressed HDV format is not being accepted by any HD broadcaster for anything other than small percentages of a HD programme.

 

If the ccds were 1440x1080 (as per SonyX300 and XDCAM HD) and that was recorded 4:2:2 to DVC pro HD 25p or 30p codec then it would be OK for interlace.

 

Bear in mind that in X300 and XDCAM HD progressive images are achieved by ccd processing which results in time lag and reduced resolution, will be interesting to see what the 200 will do to make progressive.

 

 

 

Mike Brennan

[Stephen Williams]

The value of forums is to give end users the heads up on stuff the manufacturers aren't necessarily keen or even aware of...

 

Mike,

 

Very pleased to have you and Phil onboard, its just so easy to come back from an exibition with only half the story.

 

Stephen

[Mike Brennan]

Mike,

 

.... its just so easy to come back from an exibition with only half the story.

 

Stephen

 

1/2 the story? not usually from me:)

I was the guy that took two days at NAB to get to the bottom of if Apple FCP would uncompress DVCPROHD when it did a mix and also two days at IBC for Sony to admit that the XDCAMHD camcorder was not true progressive.

 

 

The above examples are precisely why I agree with a sceptical approach to manufacturers data, certainly when livelyhoods have to be earnt.

 

 

Mike Brennan

[Jason Rodriguez]

1/2 the story? not usually from me:)

I was the guy that took two days at NAB to get to the bottom of if Apple FCP would uncompress DVCPROHD when it did a mix . . .

 

Hi Mike,

 

Does FCP uncompress the DVCProHD stream? If so, does that mean you're loosing a generation?

 

Thanks,

 

Jason

[Mike Brennan]

Hi Mike,

 

Does FCP uncompress the DVCProHD stream? If so, does that mean you're loosing a generation?

 

Thanks,

 

Jason

 

 

If you do anything but cuts it becomes uncompressed, like Sony Xpri, thats 100% certanty.

 

Apple also say, in the case of Varicam, that (if you are doing a mix) they unrap it to native 960x720 rather than unrap and then pad out to 1280x720.

This is one of the reasons they say they get good speed, is that they only play with 960x720....

 

 

Mike

[Häakon]

As for the multiple frame rates - when it was being shown these were not decided. If it is not totally variable, would highly highly lobby for 22 to be included.

A partial list of confirmed framerates for the US (NTSC) model is as follows:

 

60, 48, 36, 32, 30, 26, 24, 22, 20, 18, 12.

 

The engineers are having difficulty with the noise floor on framerates slower than 12, but have not ruled them out yet. Again, this is a confirmed list, but not necessarily a complete one.

[Landon D. Parks]

Even though some don't like the recording format (P2) for its work flow issues, I think the advantages of the camera fare outweigh any limitation in recording. TRUE Progressive, a wide array of progressive frame rates, true DVCPRO HD codec (No HDV crap), 100Mbps compression in 4:2:2, plus a host of other great features makes the camera a mini-varicam in almost everyworld except for the CCD size and quality of the lense, which I'm sure will still be more than acceptable.

 

Some of the footage that us rolling in from the camera now (Barry and Jarred did a test over at DVXuser for both framerates and test footage of what the camera can do). Just watch the 720p version of the "Basketball" clip and enjoy the slow motion, along with the cristal clear and very "Film Like" image it produces.

 

Workflow issues are not a big deal to me. a 4GB P2 is about the same as a 1,000' mag of 35mm film, both in that shooting slow mo will use up more space and shooting fast mo will give you more space, just like in film. at 24p, a 4GB card will record 11 minutes footage, same as 1,000 mag of film. The camera has a $9,000 package that ships with 5, 4GB cards. Buy yourself a P2 store device (60GB) for $1,000 and just offload the card in real time while one of your other 4GB clean cards is in the camera recording. Just like in shooting film, there should be no time lag between shooting that is spent loading and unloading mags, as most films will have a fresh mag ready when the used one is taken out. Same with P2, no disruption in workflow on the set.

 

Panasonic really hit the mark with this cam!

 

PS) No, you dont have to pay a tech geek $1,000 a day to unload your P2 cards, it dont take a smart person to operate the device, a 6 year old could do it. In fact, even you could do it in between shooting scenes, just pop the card out, pop it in the P2 store, Pres "Record" and go shoot another scene, come back and remove the clean card and place another one in, so in reality, you dont need to hire someone just to unload P2 cards.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Landon D. Parks

[Stephen Williams]

it dont take a smart person to operate the device, a 6 year old could do it.

 

Landon,

 

I think you may have problems getting insurance for your master material if that's your attitude!

 

Stephen

[Landon D. Parks]

Dont worry, I cant afford Insurance anyway... and no, im not hiring a 6 year old to operate it... I was simply explaining that a 6 year old could operate it, if need be.