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Panasonic P2


Jon Allen

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Hi,

 

> Why on gods green earth would panasonic pull that on us?

 

Because they got a hard-on for a fashionable new piece of technology and went blundering ahead without thinking it through. MXF files are purported to do all variety of clever things, but there isn't actually anything they'll do which you couldn't do with new RIFF chunks in an AVI (the same way broadcast WAV files add new RIFF chunks, and are used in flash audio recorders), whether or not you also wanted to save extra XML metadata and MPEG-4 proxies.

 

If they'd done that, they'd have had a camera system that was inherently compatible with everything that could read a DVCPRO AVI, which is more or less everything, as opposed to having a camera system that's inherently compatible with absolutely nothing and requires a huge amount of software development to support. Actually the split-file approach is so strange and wrong that it completely breaks the storage paradigm of things like Avid and the support is very patchy and hacked-in-looking.

 

What's more, MXF isn't necessarily MXF. It's just a wrapper format. Just like an AVI that can have video of various codecs inside it, only whereas AVI files are well supported and there are many reliable analysis tools to help you find the right playback software, because MXF is so new, complex and difficult to parse, there's a real dearth of software to work with it. Snell & Wilcox have a suite of Windows tools called MXF Desktop, but they don't work that well with Panasonic MXF files - there are myriad complex subformat options that an MXF can have. By looking at an MXF file without specialist tools, you can't even tell whether it's audio, video, mixed AV, timecode... disastrous.

 

> Was there a problem with the way it was before? Just pull the clips from the

> camera and play them?

 

What, you mean like a Firestore? No, I can't see what the problem was with that.

 

> How can they say this will create a more stream-lined post process than HDV?

 

I'm sure it's great if you've got a multi-million-dollar SAN-based Avid post chain.

 

> HDV is just a "Plug n play" format like DV, HDCAM, etc, etc...

 

Well, let's be fair - HDV is a pain in the neck unless your editor can handle long-GOP MPEG-2 directly, but yes, it's an open standard format. And HDCAM is far from plug-&-play. But the point here is that Panasonic have gone out of their way to produce a superb flash memory recording system which doesn't require an expensive deck and input card, and yet fallen at the last hurdle - you can get the data off the camera, but you'll be damned lucky if you can do anything with it!

 

> this sounds like its gonna be a headach in post,

 

Oh, believe me, it is a full-bore migrane in post.

 

> How on earth are you even suppose to read a .MFX file?

 

You download the MXF Desktop tools from Snell & Wilcox. You right-click on the file and select "unwrap". This gives you a raw .dif, which you then compress to an AVI using something like Canopus DV Convertor. Then you mux in the audio somehow. All this could be automated using Linux shell scripts or Windows batch files, but unless Panasonic are going to risk scoring a gigantic public-relations own-goal with this, I suggest they come up with an easy convertor tool toot sweet, as well as codecs to allow DV50 and DV100 material to be easily played back. This will involve them writing a new DirectShow splitter filter, an arduous task, since the Microsoft one is rather poor at handling high-rate DV, but frankly I ran out of sympathy for Panasonic a while ago and I wish them best of luck!

 

Phil

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If you record the HD output to a hard drive in the future, will you still have the same screwed up file format? Will it even be possible to output a 720 24p or even 1080 24p signal that will mach the quality of the recording to a P2 Card? AKA: Can you output a 720 24p 40MB/s Stream from the camera to an external recorder (Rather a Panasonic Deck, Hard Disk Array or Computer) that will equal the quality, or maybe even top the quality of the P2 cards without the screwed up MXF files?

 

Thanks much,

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Hi,

 

Yes AFAIK all DVC PRO HD is compressed the same. To get the best out of a Varicam you need to record uncompressed to an external raid.

 

Stephen

 

 

In fact there are three flavours of DVCPRO HD compression with different sub sampling.

 

720p (Varicam)

and

1080 50i

and

1080 60i

 

More info

http://www.hd24.com/compression_numbers.htm

 

For all we know there will be more than one version available on the P2 cam?

 

 

Mike Brennan

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Landon

 

Ever heard of 2000' mags, 3 perf, 2perf, or 16mm 800' loads! Somehow I get the feeling you have not spent much time on a film set.

 

Stephen

 

I find your crituqe uninspired.

 

See, Ive' been a film sets, several in fact; and when I'm not on a film set I work for a post production company that includes a film lab on campus and just so YOU know....the VAST majority of 35mm film that comes in to our facilty is indeed 400ft loads. We do moslty comercial stuff with the occasional feature and TV piece. We also have several 16mm/s16mm projects come through....so when somebody says that filmmakers change film every ten minutes I would consider that to be a fairly accurate statement.

 

Changing/Dumping P2 cards is very much like changing a role of film and will come very naturally to most filmmakers.

 

Chrisman

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I find your crituqe uninspired.

 

See, Ive' been a film sets, several in fact; and when I'm not on a film set I work for a post production company that includes a film lab on campus and just so YOU know....the VAST majority of 35mm film that comes in to our facilty is indeed 400ft loads. We do moslty comercial stuff with the occasional feature and TV piece. We also have several 16mm/s16mm projects come through....so when somebody says that filmmakers change film every ten minutes I would consider that to be a fairly accurate statement.

 

Changing/Dumping P2 cards is very much like changing a role of film and will come very naturally to most filmmakers.

 

Chrisman

 

 

Hi,

 

Have you ever used a P2 card and dumped it to disk?

 

Stephen

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Hi,

 

Have you ever used a P2 card and dumped it to disk?

 

Stephen

Have you?

 

From the sound of it, its not the dumping thats so much the problem, its getting it viewable after its dumped.. Which I'm not to worried about, because if Panasonic is gonna release this P2 thing, they will certainly put out some kind of program to convert all the files into a single video / audio / timecode file. I hope anyway, cause if Panasonic is gonna through a new thing like this out and expect someone to pay $6,000 for it, they had better make it fairly usable without some complecated post process...

Edited by Landon D. Parks
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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
Changing/Dumping P2 cards is very much like changing a role of film and will come very naturally to most filmmakers.

I agree. It's quite easy to use the P2 system, and before you start saying "have you even used it", yes I have. It was a simple case of plugging it into a laptop, on set, and downloading it. Simple. Although personally I still think tapes are a better idea...

 

And once we unpacked the video, we could watch it on windows media player.

Edited by Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
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Hi,

 

This is the problem with P2:

 

j:\leaving\avi2:

 

00018G_02_18010201.avi

0001A1_02_18010201.avi

0001EK_02_18010201.avi

0001GH_02_18010201.avi

0001N3_02_18010201.avi

0001SH_02_18010201.avi

0001SS_02_18010201.avi

0001UZ_02_18010201.avi

0002FB_02_18010201.avi

0002LK_02_18010201.avi

0002N2_02_18010201.avi

0002O0_02_18010201.avi

0002OK_02_18010201.avi

0002S4_02_18010201.avi

0002TT_02_18010201.avi

0002ZS_02_18010201.avi

00034M_02_18010201.avi

0003CE_02_18010201.avi

0003CR_02_18010201.avi

0003R8_02_18010201.avi

0003RA_02_18010201.avi

0003TQ_02_18010201.avi

0003X1_02_18010201.avi

0003X9_02_18010201.avi

0003ZK_02_18010201.avi

00040W_02_18010201.avi

00043H_02_18010201.avi

000471_02_18010201.avi

0004CR_02_18010201.avi

0004OB_02_18010201.avi

0004PF_02_18010201.avi

 

Aaargh!

 

Phil

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Thats where you hire someone to figure out what all that means and have it ready for you at the end of the day. Similar to how you have to send the film to the lab to have them process it, you need to send your files to a file dude to process them... At the end of the day of shooting, he should be able to present you with a hard disk full of files that you can transport to your computer for complete editing, etc.

 

To me, this new file format don't scare me, for the very reason that I dont have the know the difference between 0002TT_02_18010201.avi and 0004PF_02_18010201.avi! I can hire someone to figure that out.

 

On top of that, once you un-do the files into a readable format, putting them together should not be all that hard.

 

and, for those who say: "but we have to wait around for the file dude to unload the card before we can shoot". I viable option is to purchase the camera with 2, 8GB P2 cards. That way, when one is full, you can put in another one, and by the time that is full, just slip in another one... hince a pattern that you'll never "Have" to stop shooting.

Edited by Landon D. Parks
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Hi,

 

Ah, another insight-laden situational review from the world source of incompetent drivel.

 

You're suggesting hiring someone to do a job which the camera could and obviously, obviously should do it itself. You might as well hire someone to do up your shoelaces for you (an eventuality, I admit, that may not be entirely outside the realms of possibility where certain people are concerned).

 

And - let's just be very, very clear about this - you cannot hire someone to do that for you, becuase you do not have the money. Or a production to do it on. You are not in charge of an entertainment company. Your delusions of grandeur are ludicrous, not to say amusing.

 

Am I the only one tiring of this?

 

Phil

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Thats where you hire someone to figure out what all that means and have it ready for you at the end of the day. Similar to how you have to send the film to the lab to have them process it, you need to send your files to a file dude to process them...

 

File... dude?

:D

Dimitrios Koukas

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j:\leaving\avi2:

 

00018G_02_18010201.avi

0001A1_02_18010201.avi

0001EK_02_18010201.avi

0001GH_02_18010201.avi

0001N3_02_18010201.avi .....

 

Are these movie files? (avi) If so - AWSOME - they're broken up into takes already. If they are image files and you want something more like a captured tape... not a problem. With QTPro.... File>Import Image Sequence. (Select first File in sequence) File>Export Quicktime Movie.

 

Now you have a movie. Or, just use them as an image sequence.

 

 

My one gipe still after seeing the P2 and it's footage is... 1/3" sensor = a depth of field really bad for narrative stories.

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Hi,

 

Ah, another insight-laden situational review from the world source of incompetent drivel.

(...)

Am I the only one tiring of this?

 

Phil

Sometimes they're funny in an inintentional sorta way. Like Leo Gorcey or Norm Crosby (sorry, Yanks).

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Hi,

 

> Are these movie files?

 

After a lot of conversion work, yes. What you get off the camera is files named with the first five characters of that junk, and an MXF extension.

 

> they're broken up into takes already.

 

Yes, but which take? Obviously it's going to be saving files per take, but there's no sensible way of identifying them, even when you import them into a "supported" application. I have an Avid Newscutter right here on this very desk at this very moment, and you get the meaningless filenames. It's not alphabetical order, either.

 

In fact, it is alphabetical order, but only on one card; the first couple of characters of the alphabetti spaghetti increments once per take. But then when you swap cards, it starts at zero again, so if you get three cards from the same shoot and dump them into a directory, you get stuff in apparently random order.

 

If anyone from Panasonic is reading this, perhaps they'd do me the favour of explaining what 00018G means, so I can have some hope of sorting out this horrible mess.

 

As it stands, the only way to get information about scene and take on P2 footage is to visually slate it, which is such a ludicrous situation I can barely believe it. I now have something like a hundred and ninety files to rename based on reading the slate out of the first frame. Insanity.

 

Phil

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You might as well hire someone to do up your shoelaces for you (an eventuality, I admit, that may not be entirely outside the realms of possibility where certain people are concerned).

Ahhhh... I needed a good belly laugh after logging tapes all day! I really, really enjoy your posts, Phil!

 

And - let's just be very, very clear about this - you do not have the money. Or a production to do it on. You are not in charge of an entertainment company.

As for Landon, give me fifty bucks and I'll give you a half day, supervised, hands on with my DVX100a. You won't really get to touch anything, but you will learn a lot. And, you can keep the tape we shoot and do whatever you want with it. You won't find a better offer for a misfit. Waiting for your reply.

 

Am I the only one tiring of this?

No, I feel I've lost my mind.

 

Brian

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My one gipe still after seeing the P2 and it's footage is... 1/3" sensor = a depth of field really bad for narrative stories.

P2 is just a storage format, it's not married to "1/3" sensors." I think you meant to say "after seeing the HVX," which does have a 1/3" CCD, but that's nothing new by any means. 1/3" cams have always had less shallow depth of field available - that's just the way it's going to be. If you need the shallow DOF of a 2/3" camera, use a 2/3" camera. Anyway, P2 can be used in any camera they want it to (and in fact, a 2/3" P2 Varicam is due in '06).

Edited by Häakon
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