Spooling Down Your Own Film...

[Matthew B Clark]

I've been paying Spectra to spool down 400' loads for me into 100' daylight spools, but it's becoming a frequent econmic drain at $10 a roll (so $40 per 400'). I figure if I can just learn how to do it correctly myself at home, I can save a lot of money, and shoot a lot more film with that extra money. Does anyone know what this process entails exactly?

 

Thanks.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

I tried spooling down some old 800' Fuji rolls I had and quickly gave up on it. You need to, obviously, do it all in the dark. Also, you have to wind it twice. Once to get it off of the original core, and once to get the winding back to where the perfs are on the bottom when loading. It is also hard to know exactly where 100' is unless you develop a point of reference.

 

Pav Deep on this forum claims you can use Nightvision googles without damaging the film. If he is correct then I would go that route. Doing it completely in the dark is a tedious and stressful task that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

[Perry Paolantonio]

You need a darkroom. Not just a dark room, but a room completely free of light leaks. If you have such a space, you'll need a clean rewind bench and a set of good rewinds (you can get them on ebay fairly cheaply). If you need to spool to cores, then you also need a tightwind arm on the left rewind. Now that you're set up, it goes like this:

 

--In total darkness--

1) stand in the room for several minutes to acclimate, and tape off any light leaks around the door with gaffer's tape

2) Put your film in a split reel, and stick it on the left rewind. Set up another split reel on the right side.

3) VERY SLOWLY wind the film from left to right until all of the film is on the right side. You have to go slowly to prevent static electricity from flashing the film.

4) Now remove the left split reel and replace it with a daylight spool. VERY SLOWLY rewind the film onto that until it's full. Repeat 3 more times.

 

If you have something like an Eclair 200' mag and you want to go to cores, Step 4 is a bit different. In this case, you load up a 2" core on the left rewind, thread in your film and drop the tightwind arm. Then you have to load the film until you get to 200' -- but how do you know you're there in the dark? You have to practice with some leader or exposed film with a sync block that has a counter on it, and count the number of cranks on the left rewind. I used to know this number because I did this all the time for my Eclair, but I forget what it is now. I'm sure someone will know.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Perry Paolantonio

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Another issue to consider is that, if spooling to 100', you wont have 4 "daylight" spools. The daylight spools have more film to allow for loading but mainly for wrapping around the deeper film to prevent light coming in. So if you wish to load in the light, you will need to use the (109' feet I believe) standard which only gets you 3 spools with some left over.

[Zac Fettig]

Nightvision goggles are a terrible idea around unexposed film. Just because you can't see IR, doesn't mean it's invisible to the film. Especially around high speed film.

 

Taking a pair of film winders into the darkroom with you might not be a bad idea though. Spool the whole load onto a 400' projector spool, then respool onto 100' daylight loads. Pray there isn't too much scratching.

[Matthew B Clark]

Thank you Perry. I'm thinking this would be worth it when dealing with a bulk buy...like one of those Aviphot cans of 2 x 1,200' cores. I appreciate that thorough breakdown. I might just try it with a 400' load of some expired stock I have just laying around here. Just to maybe get the feel of it. It's damaged/expired film, so it's not going to tell me much about light leaks and handling, but it will get me the idea of working with my hands in the dark doing this...

[Matthew B Clark]

Thank you Zac and Matthew.

[Geoff Howell]

I've often thought about modding an arri 400ft mag, and just winding straight from the 400ft load on to an empty 100ft spool on the take up reel; using the footage indicator to tell when I've wound 100ft

[Brian Drysdale]

I did this on a film, used to black out the windows in the room that was used for editing and do actual winding when it was dark outside. One spool was always a bit shorter than the others

[Matthew B Clark]

I've often thought about modding an arri 400ft mag, and just winding straight from the 400ft load on to an empty 100ft spool on the take up reel; using the footage indicator to tell when I've wound 100ft

 

Yeah, but then isn't the film going to be on the daylight spool all backwards? Because the Arri load would just be a regular "forward-facing" load, right?

[Matthew B Clark]

I did this on a film, used to black out the windows in the room that was used for editing and do actual winding when it was dark outside. One spool was always a bit shorter than the others

 

How'd it turn out? Did you do that method described above with two split reels on a rewind? And did you notice any substantial (or minor) scratching or fogging?

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Nightvision goggles are a terrible idea around unexposed film. Just because you can't see IR, doesn't mean it's invisible to the film. Especially around high speed film.

 

 

Like I said, I had never tried it. Only relaying what Pav said on another thread. He claimed to have tried it with no negative effects. If you haven't tried it and he has, how can you be certain that you are correct?

[Pavan Deep]

I put the unexposed new film core onto a flat with the core inside a core holder and wind the film across to a 400ft spool and the I spool the film onto 4 individual daylight spools, I guess as to when the daylight spool is full, I am sure you end up with 400ft, but daylight spools will waste the first foot or so so in reality you won't be able to fully expose the 400ft reel.

 

I reluctantly tried night vision goggles, initially I thought it was a bad idea too, but I checked with labs and photographers who all believed night vision goggles would be okay, but very few had tried them with colour film but, many had tried night vision goggles with black and white film and were comfortable that night vision goggles were okay for black and white film.

 

My film has not been affected [if it has I can't tell, the labs can't tell nor can the post houses], I have loaded all sorts of film stock with night vision goggles such as the Agfa Aviphot, Kodak Ektachrome 100D, 64T, Vision 2 and 3 50D, 250D, 200T, 500T and all the recent Fujifilm stocks. I now think nightvision goggles is a great idea and the best way to load and spool film. The nigh vision goggles I bought can be easily found on Ebay.

 

Pav

[Brian Drysdale]

 

How'd it turn out? Did you do that method described above with two split reels on a rewind? And did you notice any substantial (or minor) scratching or fogging?

 

It worked fine, I used split spools, This was B & W neg film, so it may be more robust than colour neg, but no sign of scratches for fogging. It's no different to what the guys in the lab do when loading up for development, just they've got a flat winder. You can feel when the spool is full, so you don't need to read off footage,

[Matthew B Clark]

That's what I figured too....you'll obviously feel with your thumb when the spool is loaded up, since you have to carefully guide the whole process anyway...I mean it's actually tough to even conceptualize NOT being able to sense that!

[Matthew W. Phillips]

That's what I figured too....you'll obviously feel with your thumb when the spool is loaded up, since you have to carefully guide the whole process anyway...I mean it's actually tough to even conceptualize NOT being able to sense that!

 

If you fill the spool completely then I guarantee you wont get 4 spools off of a 400' core.

[Matthew B Clark]

Oh I know. Since I'm looking at doing this for those Aviphot cans though...that's two 1,200 cores. So I'd rather load up 10 or 11 to the brim like normal, then have one ratty short end spool.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Don't forget to post later and let us know how it worked out. We all learn by doing (or watching some unfortunate soul try first!) ;)

[Matthew B Clark]

I will! I feel you there. I need to quit usurping everyone's knowledge and give some back, you're right!

 

I'm glad to hear all the responses. This is good info. And I definitely don't want to pay $800 for the Aviphot and then $300 to do a spool down. After a while, that eliminates all the savings.

 

William Mishkin style penny-pinching, baby. Taking the wife's wheelchair for the day for dolly shots etc., because she can sleep in bed JUST FINE, thank you very much! Ingenuity can be so ugly sometimes!

[Heikki Repo]

Nightvision goggles (IR) can be used. In fact, most labs use them. Much easier to work with film when you see it. Many film processors have IR sensors or cameras to monitor the process and control it.

 

Normal motion picture film isn't sensitive to IR and Kodak doesn't manufacture IR motion picture film anymore.

 

So if you are going to work with film a lot in the dark, do yourself a favor and buy nightvision goggles, then install some IR lights on the wall or ceiling.

 

John Pytlak wrote 10 years ago:

 

For infrared, you then need to find a lab willing to process it (many labs use infrared night-vision scopes and infrared leader detectors in their darkrooms).

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=505&p=6099

Edited April 30, 2014 by Heikki Repo

[Geoff Howell]

 

Yeah, but then isn't the film going to be on the daylight spool all backwards? Because the Arri load would just be a regular "forward-facing" load, right?

you'd simply wind the new 100ft spool back on to another empty 100ft spool

[Gregg MacPherson]

Hey Matthew,

 

If you have skillful fingers you will learn to do it in total darkness easily. Lots of us have. Perry's detailed description is quite usefull. The tensioning roller is a good idea, though many of us have done it without one. I've done it in less than perfect darkness, sometimes at high speed, sometimes with my finger tips contacting the edges as a tensioner or the cell side to check the diameter (footage). But not with modern, fast, color stock.

 

It may be that many of us were lucky. If ones process is slow, the light level high enough, too much dust, or conditions exist for static electricity then maybe you have some problems.

 

I have done it with quite a lot of stray light. After 5 minutes or so in an improvised darkroom you see how bad it is and can try to fix it.

 

You can put an oversize roll in an undersized split core. I did a lot of low ISO B&W spool downs from 2400' rolls. I put the 2500' roll into a 1200' split spool. Left the head taped untill ready to go. Then I held the edges of the roll between my finger tips to tension it while i spooled off. A few times, spooling down from 400' rolls (100T color)

 

I have done it with a small old single sided rewind. Sitting the core of the 400' feed roll loosly on the spindle hub, holding the roll edges between my fingers.

 

I had a home made 400' platter with an Arri bobbin, looked just like a 400' platter from an ACL mag. I could push on a core, count the approx turns of the rewind handle and check the diameter with my finger tips. The windback onto 100' spools or 200' cores was easier feeding from this 400' platter.

 

I don't think the exact length of your 100' loads matters all that much, though I would try to get them all the same. If you are carefull with loading your camera you don't need all the extra feet that kodak had on their spools. The protective paper strips are good. If you don't have spare strips (I think I got them from the lab) you can just cut some black paper yourself (must be a little too wide so fits tight).

 

If in doubt, maybe you can test your process in microcosm and send a few feet to the lab. Check it with a loupe magnifier or just project the neg.

 

I normally, but not always used a cotton glove if my fingers rubbing the edge of a roll.

 

Have you seen those Lomo processing tanks. They are very useful for tests.

 

Happy spooling.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Gregg MacPherson

[Gareth North]

Hi Matthew,

The subject line of your forum posting is something that i needed to figure out for the 1st time some years ago myself having purchased some film at a good price that was sold in 400ft cans. Although I had a 400ft mag for my camera I didn’t want to lug the extra weight of a Mag, external motor and take up motor to shoot (I use a Bolex) so 400ft Breakdown to 4 x 100ft spools was the answer! But how to go about it???

So we're in the taking pictures game so here's a picture of all the parts i need to use to do a 400ft 16mm breakdown:-

 

 

The way I do it I think is the most practical and inexpensive way which uses film items that you can use outside of just breaking down a film.

I already owned a changing bag which is always a practical item to own anyway which will be in most shooters kit bag. If you haven't got one to load a camera or mag in total darkness I'd recommend it. Next item on the list is a standard 400ft reel which you should be able to pick up for next to nothing. A 400ft split spool might be a bit more expensive but i find it also use full getting prints onto projection reels from cores and managing the moving of shot film in and out of cans / projection reels. To move that film on those reels you'll need some small film winders that handle a reel no bigger than 800ft, my Zeiss ones are perfect any bigger and they won't fit in the changing bag. For nothing at all you can make the wooden base you see in picture to hold the winders and a bit of wood that sticks up to hold the bag up when winding. Next grab some spare 100ft boxes from a lab that’s quiet happy for you to have them for nothing and make sure you ask for em back every time you send them to them with film in for processing.

Procedure

1) Put everything into the bag, zip up, put your arms into the bag and untape the 400ft can and stick its tape along the sides of the wood stand.
2) Take film out the can and its plastic bag and put on the split spool and connect together both sides of the split spool and put the split spool on the left winder and put the empty standard 400ft reel on the right winder.
3) Unpick the tape holding the film, reposition upside down if film not coming off top right of the split spool and move film across to top right of empty standard reel and start winding clockwise all 400ft from split spool onto standard reel.
BY DOING THIS THE B WINDING ORITENTATED FILM IS TURNED INTO A WINDING FILM WHEN ON THE STANDARD REEL
4) Remove split spool from left winder and put somewhere safe in bag its task done and move standard reel with all film on it now from right to left winder put 100ft empty spool on right winder make sure again film comes off top right from standard reel and goes to top right of 100ft spool and wind 100ft or more as desired onto 100ft spool. Once you have the 100ft reel full you can usually break all non estar base film by just folding and pulling it apart No knife or cutter required.
THAT 100FT SPOOL WILL HAVE THE FILM BACK IN B WINDING ORIENTATION READY TO SHOOT
5) Stick tape on film on 100ft spool put in plastic tray in box and tape 100ft box up. Repeat for next 3 100ft spools.

I have used this setup around 15+ times now! When I first used it I thought it might introduce dust and dirt onto the film but comparing Kodak 100ft loads with my own creations after processing and Scanning no discernable difference was seen so I’ve kept doing it! Make sure bag and everything you put in it is spotless and you'll be fine.

I was interested to read everyone else's take on how to accomplish the same thing. Obviously if you have a complete dark room in your house you can use that but who does have access to one of those? Or want to convert a room to be like that. Its soo much effort and you can't take the room with you to a location. So just get a bag simpler!

You also don't need night vision goggles. I suppose if you’re a lab dealing with film in your own darkroom everyday it makes sense but not really though for us! Plus what do you do with the night vision goggles when you’re not breaking down film. Umm No answer :)

It will take hardly any time to get into the swing of doing it this way. Interesting comment from an earlier poster about winding slowly in order to avoid static light fogging film. I always forget about this anomaly and have to admit I usually want this procedure done quick (about 30mins per breakdown) anything longer and the bag takes on a humid ecosystem of its own and it becomes a bit muggy in there. So I usually wind like a man possessed the film in under a min onto the standard reel from the split spool and then just as fast onto the 100ft spools and never had any weird white spekks visible after processing :)

One good aspect of this is you can do oversized 100ft reels so you go longer between 100ft changes my lab hasn't been fussed about it. Obviously the 3rd spool doesn't last very long!

This has been my first post. Hope you find it use full.

Gareth North
www.bolexh16user.net

[Pavan Deep]

This is very helpful, the process of spooling film is quite simple and not as complicated as many seem to think, obviously it needs to be done in the dark as described. Like many I don't have the luxury of using a darkroom, I use the bathroom which has no window so it is a very good darkroom when the lights are off. I have no special equipment just a small clean table, 16mm winders, scissors and a splicer, I haven't got pictures but when I do it next I will take some.

 

 

I do use [iR] night vision goggles which I bought off Ebay for about £50.00, in fact I rely on them now and have two pairs one waiting and ready just in case one stops working, they are pretty cheap and commonly available. The simple fact is that it’s easier to work with film when you see it and this way I can easily make tape splices, I am so used to them now, I wish to had them years ago.

 

Pav

[Matthew B Clark]

Gregg, Gareth, Pav, all excellent pieces of information, and I'm sure my thanks is indicative of many other happy eyes here. The detail and breadth of styles you've all outlined for handling this process is really useful.

 

Hey, by the way, I was thinking about Gareth's "humid" conditions in the changing bag. You described doing it quickly but never having any static electricity issues on the film...I'm wondering if the humidity is helping that. I always thought that really dry air was a major ally of static electricity. So that would actually make sense that you aren't having as many static (and even dust) issues inside a nice, warm, moist changing bag. Food for thought, and likely wrong, but maybe right!