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Spooling Down Your Own Film...


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I've done this. I went with slowly but it is easy. A split spool is essential tho. You start from the split spool onto a normal spool and then you go from the normal spool back onto the little spools. You can definitely feel the little spools being fuller. The only problem I remember was one of the spools falling off at some point for some reason and trying to find it in the dark. The only real problem with it is that it is dark and you can't see and if you put the light on to see what you did then everything is ruined.

 

You have to embrace the darkness! ;)

 

Freya

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Like I said, I had never tried it. Only relaying what Pav said on another thread. He claimed to have tried it with no negative effects. If you haven't tried it and he has, how can you be certain that you are correct?

 

I can believe it will work. But I still think it's a terrible idea. It will work with most slower films, but you will damage higher speed ones.

 

For example, Vision3 50D will probably be safe. The sensitivity of the film to IR (assume lambda=700nm) is near 0. Same with most other films:

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/Kodak/motion/Products/Camera_Films/Color_Negative/tech_data/TI5203.pdf

 

Vision3 500T will probably not be. In Vision3 500T, the sensitivity is around 1.3. It will damage the film. Without knowing the sensitivity exactly, it's an unacceptable risk. [Reala 500D was around 0.7 for example]:

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/TI2647.pdf

 

I'm a big believer in playing it safe with undeveloped negative.

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I can believe it will work. But I still think it's a terrible idea. It will work with most slower films, but you will damage higher speed ones.

 

In all honesty, spooling down your own film is a terrible idea. Either buy the 100' spools, get a camera with 400' mags, or pay a lab. It is risky no matter what. You can fumble something in the dark (and good luck getting your core in order in the dark without ruining your film), you can turn too fast and get a static electricity flash, you can get all kinds of dust on the film through the spooling process, etc. It is a terrible idea so adding another terrible idea to the mix isnt likely to make the situation much more bleak.

 

Since I have went to 400' loads, I hate going back. I do still buy 100' loads if I get them cheap but it is too much loading for too little reward.

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Hi All,

Glad you liked the posting Freya, Pav.

Matthew the bag only gets warm after a while of hands and arms being in it and I usually aim to be out before it gets to that stage, not for any other reason than it gets mildly unpleasant. It'll be my own fault though getting distracted watching TV while doing it or just faffing about too much one time. But mostly I can be all done in 30mins or less.

I Honestly don't think you'll have a problem practically doing it this way. As regards the debate were now having about light specks I forgot about static causing them and have always been more concerned about moving the film from reel to reel as fast as possible so no dirt would get to it. I'm a nit picker where my shots are concerned and although i could find fault with framing, focussing, exposure (the usual stuff) none of the issues have ever been dirt and white specks with what i'd shot from breakdown flm.

Zac not sure exactly what you saying on your last post! Need some help! Obiously 50D is lower speed than 500T so if there did happen to be a static flash of the same strength say in the bag the 500T will be more badly afected but are you also saying the 500T is more likely to cause a static flash? and or it be bigger due to some charateristic of that film that causes more static in the first place? If not there the same chance of it occuring per roll as any other.

For the record I've only done this breakdown with Vision 3 50D as you can see in the first picture and Ektachrome 100D. But was intending to do it with 250D for the first time shortly. I hate 500T in Super 16mm as its too grainy for me so i'm never going to buy 400ft of that and break it down. As i say i've broke down 6000ft of 50D and 100D without ANY single occurance of whie specks after processing or extra dirt.

Mr Philips i find the film comes on the cores tighly wound. If you have a good split spool put the side with the notch flat down and then put the film on it it and rotate until it finds the notch and drops in then screw on the other side. This is all before u unpeal the tape so its not going to go anywhere! I'd love to shoot 400ft in one go but I just haven't got the energy to lug the 400ft version of my camera around anymore so prefer 100ft spools. But each to there own might be the best for you!

Best Regards All

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Spooling down film is not a terrible idea, especially as it saves a lot of money, 100ft daylight spools are expensive about £30.00 -£40.00, but in many cases I've been able to get fresh film in 400ft loads for as little as £30.00. Maybe I've been lucky so far with my night vision goggles, but I can say for certain that none of my Vision 3 500T that I used recently were affected by the goggles.

 

Pav

Edited by Pav Deep
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Spooling down film is not a terrible idea, especially as it saves a lot of money, 100ft daylight spools are expensive about £30.00 -£40.00, but in many cases I've been able to get fresh film in 400ft loads for as little as £30.00. Maybe I've been lucky so far with my night vision goggles, but I can say for certain that none of my Vision 3 500T that I used recently were affected by the goggles.

 

Pav

I agree. But I have 0% risk loading up my 400' mag with 400' of film. ;)

On a feature shoot, the thought of 100' loads is unbearable.

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I agree. But I have 0% risk loading up my 400' mag with 400' of film. ;)

On a feature shoot, the thought of 100' loads is unbearable.

 

There is always risk loading/unloading mags. Also, some spool downs are to cores, big rolls down to 400' or 200' rolls, 400' down to 200'.

 

Once a spool is loaded it is fairly idiot proof, can't accidentally fog a roll, and it is usefull sometimes to be able to change out a roll with spools. No bag or extra mags on hand for example. I used 200' spools a bit, and the only downside I found was that they are sometimes a bit noisier.

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So, Gregg, you think the risk of loading a core is equal with the risk of respooling film in the dark? I can load the CP16 mag (the part that requires dark, that is) in barely more time than what it takes to shut the door and reopen it.

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So, Gregg, you think the risk of loading a core is equal with the risk of respooling film in the dark? I can load the CP16 mag (the part that requires dark, that is) in barely more time than what it takes to shut the door and reopen it.

 

I don't know how you got to there....

- Is loading mags with film on cores "zero risk"? No. Talk to someone who knows these cameras well. Is the risk acceptable? Yes.

- Is respooling or breaking down risk free? No. But most have managed this risk and had no problems.

- Is breaking down, respooling useful? Well, yes.

- Calling it a terrible idea? I'm just gonna call that "a Matthew".

Sorry, couldn't help myself with that one.

 

Backto topic in all seriousness.

Adding to or correcting my previous description. I did spool down a lot of VNF color reversal, some of it 400ASA, short ends and recans down to 100' spools. Shooting scenes with dark backgrounds, so forgiving of dust, but not of fogging or static. No problems.

 

Cue VNF nostalgia. I had friends who would shoot music videos on that stuff, do a basic cut on a pic sync, then catch the night train to Wellington to add some gloss for free in the TVNZ 1" tape online suite. VNF was normally free (recans, short ends), cheap to process, camera tests and clip tests very cheap. When I dropped film off there was normally an old guy there with his feet up reading a book, keeping an eye on the machine.

 

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- Calling it a terrible idea? I'm just gonna call that "a Matthew".

Sorry, couldn't help myself with that one.

 

 

Perhaps you should call it "a Zac" since it was him, not me, that mentioned things that were "terrible ideas" initially.

 

Nonetheless, I will not argue with you or anyone about this. I personally feel it isnt worth the time or effort. Some do. Some also think Lomo tanks and home development are worth it. Again, i don't. Others find home telecine or transfer worthwhile. I still don't. I prefer to have pros do most of those things because I accept that they do a better job than I and I find filmmaking to be enough work already without adding additional stress to my life.

 

But YMMV.

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100ft spool cameras are so much more compact. Putting 400ft core films onto 100ft spools I find is the opposite to stress :)

because no one can get at you in that darkroom or cupboard under the stairs, and apart from the 20 mins wonderful peace it's very straightforward. You can almost do it "with eyes closed". But split spool essential.

Economically though I'm not sure. As 100ft daylight spools are getting quite expensive, also the extra footage on pre-packed 100ft loads (for threading) can be very handy for filming.

Edited by Doug Palmer
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...But split spool essential....

 

@Doug

It's good advice I suppose, but not strictly true. Plenty of times I just sat a 400' roll on the rewind spindle with my fingers holding the sides of the roll.

 

@Matthew, or anyone.

Thinking of how need can drive the choice of camera/load size. In the 70s I think, an amazing surfer/surf cinematographer George Greenough made a film called The Innermost Limits of Pure Fun. Riding his small knee boards impossibly deep inside the tube, with 50' load gun cameras mounted on his chest, back and helmet. I have some of those (SAP?) gun cameras, but I've never been brave enough to try loading the cassettes.

 

I'm just thinking that a creative idea should inform the development and execution of a film, and the tools required, rather than some romantic assumption that it be constructed of shots of actors with sync dialogue. But I know, that romantic or unthinking assumption is so common it defines the norm.

 

Matthew, whaddaya gonna do if you suddenly have a great Wallace and Grommet type idea?

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I can believe it will work. But I still think it's a terrible idea. It will work with most slower films, but you will damage higher speed ones.

 

For example, Vision3 50D will probably be safe. The sensitivity of the film to IR (assume lambda=700nm) is near 0. Same with most other films:

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/Kodak/motion/Products/Camera_Films/Color_Negative/tech_data/TI5203.pdf

 

Vision3 500T will probably not be. In Vision3 500T, the sensitivity is around 1.3. It will damage the film. Without knowing the sensitivity exactly, it's an unacceptable risk. [Reala 500D was around 0.7 for example]:

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/TI2647.pdf

 

I'm a big believer in playing it safe with undeveloped negative.

 

Sure, 700nm might cause problems. However, there is also 850nm and 940nm IR equipment available.

 

I have hard time believing that professional labs wouldn't use IR.

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Zac not sure exactly what you saying on your last post! Need some help! Obiously 50D is lower speed than 500T so if there did happen to be a static flash of the same strength say in the bag the 500T will be more badly afected but are you also saying the 500T is more likely to cause a static flash? and or it be bigger due to some charateristic of that film that causes more static in the first place? If not there the same chance of it occuring per roll as any other.

 

 

 

 

Gareth, I was saying that the spectral response of the film (how the film reacts to light) is too high at IR wavelengths (700 nanometers) for it to be safe to use night vision goggles around the film.

 

 

Pav, I'm glad you've gotten lucky. I would like to point out that there are a lot of variables, and YMMV. Maybe your goggles have a good high pass filter over the illumination lamp. Maybe they're high in the IR band.

 

I, personally, think it's a bad idea. But that's just my opinion. Mainly because I don't like taking chances with my negative.

 

Matt, I'm fine with calling it a "Zac." :) For what it's worth though, I think respooling in general is a fine idea, although likely to add scratches to the film. I prefer 400' loads in my Arri, but when I borrow my friends Scoopic, I learned right away that 100' loads are way easier (he has the 400' adapter and a mag, but it's kind of a Rube Goldberg-esque contraption). But usually, I just order daylight loads.

 

Now if someone has a line on a small home perforator for making double perf....

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In labs

 

In the labs I've seen, the film is off loaded into magazines to be loaded onto the developing machine. It's a winding exercise which can be done by feel in a dark room, the lab people that do it are extremely fast.

 

Do they avoid static by humidity control or do they use an earth?

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Hi Zac,

 

Thanks for claryfying that it was the IR Goggles that might potentially be affecting the higher speed film if you used them in a breakdown procedure and not my Breakdown procedure wihout them being used naking higher peed film succeptable to white static flashes! I'm just ging to continue breaking down as before i'm not having any issues.

 

I'd also recommend anyone to continue to buy 100ft spools of film from Kodak as and when needed if thats good for you. You don't have to do this method the downside is having the split spool and other equipment to do it and you will never get spot on accurate lengths on each spool so you can never judge as you can with the kodak spools exactly when times up!

 

Anyhow i got distracted replying to this thread than never asking the question i came here to ask. New thread in film stocks and processing forum about film stock suply in the uk, Thanks Intersted to here from you Pav on it.

 

Best Regards

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In labs

 

 

Do they avoid static by humidity control or do they use an earth?

 

I wasn't working there, so I don't know the arrangements for static (if there was there one), certainly wasn't an earth strap for the operator, although there was a bit of humidity from the machines..

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Do they avoid static by humidity control or do they use an earth?

 

When I worked in a lab (20 years ago), we did it by feel, in a dark room, slowly. There was no grounding of the rewinds, you were just careful.

 

At least here in New England, summers can be humid and you wouldn't see as much static then. But winters are typically very dry. If you wind too fast, you can see a halo of static electricity. Personally I wouldn't risk it, especially with higher speed films.

 

I mean, any film on rewinds has the potential to generate static electricity (exposed or unexposed negative, prints, whatever), especially if you're using your fingers to keep the tension on the film. It's going to be worse if the air is dry, though.

Edited by Perry Paolantonio
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Whoa, whoa, whoa. Mild interjection please. Why are we suddenly talking about electrocution, grounding, and "halo's" of electricity? Is there something I'm missing about the archaic idea of taking two wheels and spinning them?

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The film base is acetate. It's a sliding contact. You will generate static. It can spark if you're not careful. (Typically has to exceed 15kV, but that can happen)

 

When you're really concerned about static electricity, you use humidity control, ion generators and ground straps.

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Static electricity is very rare on color camera negative because of the conductive carbon rem-jet backing. It might be a problem in very low relative humidity on B&W stocks. We wind color intermediate and print stocks at over 1000 ft/min in complete darkness, never seen a spark. Very little chance on hand rewinds. Just keep the room at 50% humidity or more if in doubt.

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