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Well, okay, let's get one thing straight: one of the reasons that I'm cautious about advising people on any course of action leading to production work in the UK is that it is almost always unpaid.

 

I'm not kidding, I'm not exaggerating, and I'm not being Marvin the Paranoid Android for comic effect. Most film and TV work in the UK is not paid. At all.

 

People will object to this, claiming that they make £75k a year as a grip or whatever, but the point remains. By absolute number of jobs, and working on the basis that there are many thousands of people trying to get into filmmaking and working on a not-even-expenses basis on indie shorts, compared to the couple of hundred people who will work on Star Wars, the overwhelming majority of film work in the UK is unpaid. Yes, it's illegal, but nobody gives a damn about enforcing it because the people who are being stomped on are poor, and therefore are assumed not to matter (class-based societies are wonderful, don't you think?)

 

So it isn't about not being paid enough, it's about being paid at all. And no matter how attractive the work is, I am personally unable to live on zero money, especially if I'm being expected to own and give away tens of thousands in camera gear at least in order to get these jobs. The fact that all of these productions will be junk that you'd hesitate to show anyone is another miserable, depressing matter.

 

And no, unless you are outrageously lucky, YouTube is not going to pay for anything approaching worthwhile cinematography. Notice that almost everyone who makes a living out of it does so by sitting in their bedroom talking to a webcam. More power to them, I say, it's all very helpful and alternatives to the big commercial incumbents are great, but if you're interested in making nice images, there's nothing going on.

 

To drag this conversation back on topic, if our original poster finds this prospect attractive, fine, but don't say I didn't tell you.

 

P

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I'm not kidding, I'm not exaggerating, and I'm not being Marvin the Paranoid Android for comic effect. Most film and TV work in the UK is not paid. At all.

 

People will object to this, claiming that they make £75k a year as a grip or whatever, but the point remains. By absolute number of jobs, and working on the basis that there are many thousands of people trying to get into filmmaking and working on a not-even-expenses basis on indie shorts, compared to the couple of hundred people who will work on Star Wars, the overwhelming majority of film work in the UK is unpaid. Yes, it's illegal, but nobody gives a damn about enforcing it because the people who are being stomped on are poor, and therefore are assumed not to matter (class-based societies are wonderful, don't you think?)

 

Actually, one reason it might not be enforced is that even if it were possible to do so, the results would not be to anyones benefit. Quite the reverse. The reason there is so much unpaid work is because it is the only way to make things happen in an environment where there isn't a sustainable industry. It's the only way to try and reach a higher level. It's also the only way for people to get any real experience. Thus removing this layer is only likely to make matters much worse. As you suggest yourself the vast majority of this stuff isn't going anywhere even when it is completed, so the idea that people are being exploited in this context is not really very valid. These shoots mostly exist for educational purposes basically.

 

Also I do tend to find that there are people working on these little shorts made for free etc that are also working on big industry shoots. I think this is because these people believe they have to work on everything they can find.

 

Of course there has also been a history of large media companies taking on unpaid interns to reduce overheads which is a different thing really.

 

Freya

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I suspect many cinematographers do freebies as practice pieces or to try out something that they haven't done before and may not to risk doing on a paying gig for the first time. Usually, if a paying gig comes up, they will no longer be available for the freebie.

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! I watch a LOT of British films that are NOT 200 million dollar, FX driven blockbusters tentpoles, but are character driven, reality based, TINY, LITTLE, VERY COOL movies thzt I thoroughly enjoy watching because they give me an alternative to mega-films when I feel like something different, and STILL you complain about "Bond" movies being the only "real" movies being made in the UK. Maybe the reason you're having trouble findimg profuction work is you. That kind of negative attitude would NOT be acceptable on an American set and I sincerely doubt it woukd fly on a British set as well.

 

Would like to see a British 200 million dollar, FX driven blockbuster tentpole! :) Wonder what it would be like!

 

What little British movies did you see that you liked? I'm actually a bit surprised that this stuff is finding its ways overseas! I guess there is so many outlets now that stuff is getting viewed more widely.

 

Freya

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And it is funny how DPs are the ones who are overcome with hubris. They think their job is so difficult that no one could possibly ever do it. It ain't rocket science, mate. Anyone who can dedicate some time and research into the matter can present a passable result. And the dedication one usually has to their own project is going to always be higher than some one you pay.

 

I'd spend money on the talent over spending on the DP any day.

 

This is really spot on, and is one of the core reasons that cinematography is dying. These days it's quite possible for almost anyone to get some basic cinematography experience as they can own their own camera that is capable of really okay results, they can then learn how to use that camera really well and they might even start experimenting with lighting. As a result there are hordes of people marketing themselves as DP. As you suggest, the results are often at best mediocre however and it's not difficult for almost anyone to dedicate a little time and research and get passable results themselves. As a result the whole field has become somewhat swamped with mediocrity and there is not a compelling reason to hire a DP for a lot of things. You could just as easily DP yourself or get your mate to learn how to do a basic job. This leads to less and less people having the experience to do a great job.

 

It has reached a point where we are now seeing very mediocre work at even the highest level.

This and other factors such as shifts in technology, are conspiring to make the cinematography a less and less important part of the production.

 

Freya

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Maybe the reason you're having trouble findimg profuction work is you. That kind of negative attitude would NOT be acceptable on an American set and I sincerely doubt it woukd fly on a British set as well.

"Profuction work"? What a fantastic expression!

That's almost as good a word as: "Resluts" :rolleyes:

Are you by any chance typing on a tablet PC, after eating fish & chips?

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Freya, the issue with the whole "educational" argument for free work is exactly what these people are being educated to do.

 

There are several problems:

 

- Working practices are unlikely to mirror those on a "real" set

- The quality of the finished production is likely to be too poor to use as showreel material

- There is almost nowhere to advance to anyway

 

In short, it won't work, and there wouldn't be any point if it did.

 

So, if enforcing the minimum wage legislation on independent short filmmaking in london - as if it is bloody well optional - is likely to reduce the number of independent shorts made - fine. The people who work on them may be under the impression it's going to be useful - I was, at one time - but it isn't. Nobody's learning anything, or at least not much. Nobody's getting any worthwhile showreel material. Nobody's going to advance to the next level because there is no next level.

 

I don't like this situation, I didn't create this situation, and I am willing to take any reasonable action which is likely to help in relieving this situation, but nevertheless this is the situation. Anyone who is not aware of it is liable to appalling exploitation.

 

Again, I wish someone had told me.

 

P

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I did 3 weeks of free work 10 years ago. I haven't worked for free since. It's been my only source of income. Granted, I haven't worked on big budget feature films (I plan on changing that). But I have friends who have and still do. One friend is in constant work as a 1st AC on feature/commercial sets and in the UK. He was shooting the film was Brad and gang a couple of months ago.

 

Point is, you have to make it work for yourself. You didn't, Phil. That doesn't mean others can't. In short, I think you're wrong and it doesn't surprise me that with your attitude that you have no work.

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I think you're wrong

 

Why?

 

Because you don't like what I'm saying?

 

That's not a very good reason to disbelieve something, when you think about it.

 

I'm telling you the truth. I have no reason to do otherwise. Honestly, I can't stand all this "you have to make it work for yourself" drivel. Jump out of an aeroplane without a parachute, see how far positive thinking gets you. Good grief.

 

P

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I don't like what you're saying, not because I can't handle the truth but because it's utter rubbish. I have a friend who came through the ranks and is currently working on big feature films, in the uk, on British soil and getting paid in sterling. You are wrong. Fact. Oh, and he is a commoner just like me. We met on a season when we were both chefs working for the same tour operator.

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I don't like what you're saying, not because I can't handle the truth but because it's utter rubbish. I have a friend who came through the ranks and is currently working on big feature films, in the uk, on British soil and getting paid in sterling. You are wrong. Fact. Oh, and he is a commoner just like me. We met on a season when we were both chefs working for the same tour operator.

Richard, I imagine you learned in college that you cant use logical fallacies such as the rule of small numbers. "I had a friend" means nothing because there are other things at play that may be different for Phil than your friend. Connections? Luck? Who knows but saying you had a friend who did it is a weak argument.

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I'm not arguing that I'll have the same luck. I'm arguing against the fact that Phil is saying its impossible. That good sir, is total rubbish. The "I have friend" thing is just proof that it is possible.

It is proof that it is possible for your friend. Good for him but still no evidence that it is possible for Phil. That is like me saying that "Because Michael Jordan was such a great b-ball player that it is possible for me to be that good." No, it definitely isn't.

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What he said.

 

I have friends who make a living in the film industry, too. Mostly in LA.

 

I know the fallacy as secundum quid, but round here I like to call it the Rodriguez Gambit, where people seize upon examples because they're well-known, as opposed to using examples because they're actually representative.

 

P

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So, if enforcing the minimum wage legislation on independent short filmmaking in london - as if it is bloody well optional - is likely to reduce the number of independent shorts made - fine. The people who work on them may be under the impression it's going to be useful - I was, at one time - but it isn't. Nobody's learning anything, or at least not much. Nobody's getting any worthwhile showreel material. Nobody's going to advance to the next level because there is no next level.

 

I think trying to enforce minimum wage legislation on every Am Dram and no budget filmmaking project in London or elsewhere, is just a waste of time, money and resources which is why it is not being done. How would it be to anyones benefit to do so?

 

Freya

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I did 3 weeks of free work 10 years ago. I haven't worked for free since. It's been my only source of income. Granted, I haven't worked on big budget feature films (I plan on changing that). But I have friends who have and still do. One friend is in constant work as a 1st AC on feature/commercial sets and in the UK. He was shooting the film was Brad and gang a couple of months ago.

 

Wow! That's even better! Maybe your friend can get you some work on some sets? If you can somehow mix that with doing the broadcast work then you could be in a good position. :)

 

Freya

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It is proof that it is possible for your friend. Good for him but still no evidence that it is possible for Phil. That is like me saying that "Because Michael Jordan was such a great b-ball player that it is possible for me to be that good." No, it definitely isn't.

Please read back through the comments. I'm not saying it's possible for Phil or that it's possible for me. I'm merely saying that's it possible for someone, because I'm friends with one of those "someone's". Phil is saying that no one should bother even trying as there is no market, no movies being shot here or that you have to be part of some inner circle to get in. And I say that that is utter rubbish.

 

I never get drawn into online arguments. Not sure why I did here, they're so unproductive.

 

If anyone wants to chime in with something positive, don't be shy :)

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Wow! That's even better! Maybe your friend can get you some work on some sets? If you can somehow mix that with doing the broadcast work then you could be in a good position. :)

 

Freya

At least Freya has a positive outlook. I've hit him up Freya. Fingers crossed!

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I think it can be said that it's tough, extremely difficult, needs luck and a number of other things, but impossible?

 

im·pos·si·ble[im-pos-uh-buhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngl] Show IPA

adjective

1.
not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc.
2.
unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.: an impossible assignment.
3.
incapable of being true, as a rumor.
4.
not to be done, endured, etc., with any degree of reason or propriety: an impossible situation.
5.
utterly impracticable: an impossible plan.

 

 

BTW I gather Gareth Edwards is to direct one of the Star Wars films. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2636955/Star-Wars-hires-Godzilla-filmmaker-Gareth-Edwards-direct-new-spin-film.html

 

If you're going to work on freebies, you do have to be selective about them, after all you're funding a production with your labour. Unless it's mates playing around, you have act like any other funder of a film.

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There's impossible, then there's as near impossible as makes no difference - which is a difference I'm usually at pains to make.

 

I get very, very angry when hopeful people have their enthusiasm exploited and their efforts consumed in return for nothing.

 

P

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"Profuction work"? What a fantastic expression!

That's almost as good a word as: "Resluts" :rolleyes:

Are you by any chance typing on a tablet PC, after eating fish & chips?

No, my laptop lost the hard drive so I'm on my cell phone as I sent 4 of my desktop computers to my graphics guyto build a small render farm for VFX work on a teaser a script I have some interest on which left me only my editing computer which I don't put online ever, so I'm religated to a small screen with limited functionality. I do apologize for the spelling errors but my hands are a little large for this smartphone making typing a chore. Liked yhe fish and chips comment though, not sure what you mean by that though I assume it has something to do with the beer you wash down the fish and chips with and yes, I was drinking last night, and am about to drink tonight a little as it is a holiday weekend here in the states which probably didn't help my spelling, which I generally suck at anyway, totally sober. But, hey, that's why God and Microsoft invented spellcheck, unfortunatly, this cellphone AIN'T got it.
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Keith, you are a grammar Nazi? Come on man, that is pretty weak...even for you. ;)

A Grammar Nazi? That's a simple typo, not a grammatical error.

I was just pointing out it was one of those happy slips of the finger which expresses the subject matter rather more accurately than the intended word.

But wait!! A Grammar Nazi?!

What a fantastic subject for my next Hitler Parody :rolleyes:

 

"Mein Führer...."

"Matthew has....."

(Beat)

"Matthew has confused spelling errors with grammatical errors...."

(Ominous silence as Hitler's trembling left hand removes his glasses....)

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