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[Richard Prendergast]

As luck would have it, I just got accepted into Astronaunt School of Scunthorpe

[Richard Prendergast]

I just had to look up what Pollyanna meant. I suspect you maybe right :)

[Freya Black]

 

Okay, five.

 

In the few-hundred-thousand budget range that startup directors of photography need to do to build a production history and a reel, I suspect it isn't even four. Obviously, nobody's getting anywhere near a $25m feature, and the American stuff will bring people in (because Hollywood will not tolerate everything looking like a tedious, miserable Ken Loach drama about domestic violence in the home of an unemployed miner, and quite rightly so).

 

Okay I totally understand what you mean now. Five sounds about right to me. Theres is two a year in London from microwave and then there will be a few others dotted around the UK including the occasional privately financed one. Definitely in single digits for sure.

 

BTW I think you are behind the times on the Ken Loach thing. The current trend is middle class people making films along the lines of "Poor People aren't they funny" or "Poverty it's all a good laugh really innit" etc. See "Benefits Street" etc. Got a feeling that won't travel so well either personally but there you are. They should stick to films of rich people in mansions.

 

I think one of the more serious problems with looking to be a DOP is that you are essentially looking for other people to hire you. In essence this means you need to be friends with the directors making the films or at least on good speaking terms so they know you are out there. This is a problem everywhere in the world and in the UK you have all the added problems of the class system ( well might not be a problem depending where you are in it!) and everything thrown in there too. If you direct OTOH it's possible to make your own destiny to a much greater extent and to create your own work. The upshot of that is that there would need to be a LOT of these lower budget movies and I doubt there is even that many happening in the states, added to that is the problem that even if there were a lot of these movies then there is still going to be the matter of the amount of demand for work on them. It's unlikely that the supply is going to even come close to matching the demand. Finally to add to all of that, in my experience, a lot of directors in the UK would rather try and teach their mates to learn to operate a camera than to find existing camera/cinematography people.

 

Oh yeah and cinematography is a dying art anyway as cinema is largely over now as it is well on its way into merging with television. In the future cinematography, in the old sense, is likely to be less and less of a thing.

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

BTW Black Snow video is looking good Richard! :)

 

Freya

[Phil Rhodes]

I think Pollyanna - in any of its film adaptations - is probably a gleaming example of that.

 

Oh, isn't 1913 cute. World War 1 is about to start and Pollyanna herself is quite likely to die of diphtheria.

 

P

[Mark Dunn]

And you're proposing astronaut as a reasonable career choice in that basis?

More of what the Americans would call a left-field idea, really, since you mentioned astronauts and space programmes.

But someone making A-level choices in the UK now could consider it. ESA selects astronauts from time to time. A science degree and 1000 hours in fast jets helps, but that's something you can set out to get. Not at 40, but at 20.

[Phil Rhodes]

 

 

1000 hours in fast jets... something you can set out to get

 

Not for long, at this rate.

 

But I think my point is more or less made: you've probably got a better chance of being an astronaut than you have a director of photography in the UK.

 

P

[Mark Dunn]

Probably right.

About 7 British-born people so far have been or will go into space. One was and American born here by accident and 3 became American to do it.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Mark Dunn

[Richard Prendergast]

 

Not for long, at this rate.

 

But I think my point is more or less made: you've probably got a better chance of being an astronaut than you have a director of photography in the UK.

 

P

 

You are actually kidding right?

[Phil Rhodes]

Only a bit.

 

Helen Sharman, first brit in space, flew in 1989. Assuming the number of British astronauts since then is 8, well, are there really 8 British directors of photography working in proper movies you can go and see at the gigaplex, produced in the UK with British money, who have entered the industry since 1989?

 

No. There aren't. And yes, that's 25 years ago, and yes, it really is that awesomely crap here. We are, as a country, really that feckless.

 

If you have the option to leave the UK, do so. Otherwise, let's not work from the perspective that you wish to do a thing therefore there must be a way to do that thing. There isn't.

 

P

[Richard Prendergast]

I never said that the money needed to come from the uk or that it has to be shot on British soil. I've never had my pay cheque originate from inside the uk and 95% of what I've shot has been outside the uk. Yet I describe myself as a British camera op/director.

 

Can I ask what it is that you do Phil?

[Michael LaVoie]

Freya makes a good case for creating your own opportunities. However I'd recommend against producing a film so you can DP it. I think you're far better off executive producing a film, if you can afford to but don't actually join the production crew. Find or draft a script, something short and small that's within your means but fully crew it up. Hire a producer, director, 1st A.D., DP and just stay out of their way but observe everything closely. See how the film is put together, cast, directed. Watch how the script is broken down into a schedule, how the gear list is prepared, storyboards, shotlists, call sheets. Everything. This experience will really help prepare you for eventually DP'ing a future project as you'll have way more info on the entire process which is what you say you're missing. If you hire professionals on your film, it can also open doors for networking as well. But all this assumes you're ability to afford this. It's definitely an investment.

 

As for distribution, there are 2 famous directors who've recently released films online. Joss Whedon with In Your Eyes released direct to Vimeo and Steven Brill with Walk of Shame which was released simultaneously to theaters and to ITunes shooting up to #1 within 24 hours.

 

I think if you embrace the possibilities of direct online streaming it helps make things seem slightly less grim out there. Vimeo after all, only takes 10%. You just have to create a strong enough marketing campaign and trailer to direct people to your page to see it. But the idea of waiting for people to buy, distribute and market your film is not something that even Hollywood veteran directors seem to believe that strongly in anymore. Not for smaller, indie content. It's all up to the filmmaker now.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

I think you're far better off executive producing a film, if you can afford to but don't actually join the production crew.

 

Hahahah. I better chime in before Richard does because we all know it is coming.

 

Funny how so many crew people here want everyone to put up the money and just "leave the work to us." If I am paying for the thing, I'm going to direct it. It is foolish to think people are going to let you run their movie. And it is funny how DPs are the ones who are overcome with hubris. They think their job is so difficult that no one could possibly ever do it. It ain't rocket science, mate. Anyone who can dedicate some time and research into the matter can present a passable result. And the dedication one usually has to their own project is going to always be higher than some one you pay.

 

I'd spend money on the talent over spending on the DP any day.

[Michael LaVoie]

Hahahah. I better chime in before Richard does because we all know it is coming.

 

Funny how so many crew people here want everyone to put up the money and just "leave the work to us." If I am paying for the thing, I'm going to direct it. It is foolish to think people are going to let you run their movie. And it is funny how DPs are the ones who are overcome with hubris. They think their job is so difficult that no one could possibly ever do it. It ain't rocket science, mate. Anyone who can dedicate some time and research into the matter can present a passable result. And the dedication one usually has to their own project is going to always be higher than some one you pay.

 

I'd spend money on the talent over spending on the DP any day.

Directing is pretty stressful. I know I'd prefer to have my very first on set experience in narrative filmmaking be one of stress free learning if I could afford it. But I've been at this a while and have seen many people make attempts at directing that were shining examples of "hubris" being that they had no formal education, background or training. If all one wants is to work in a vacuum by themselves where they're in charge all the time, that's one thing. If the goal is to work in the industry for many people, it's best to see how it's all done in as formal and standard a way as possible and it'd be very difficult to do that if the main person in charge is making all the decisions from a place of no experience.

 

If one is new to the process of filmmaking, there's quite a lot to learn and getting first hand experience from veteran production personell would be invaluable. Not just watching a DP, I mean everything from script supervising to production co-ordinating. The more you know, the more it can help you, no matter what job you're doing on set.

 

This is, in lieu of the path most people take which is to P.A. for a few years or work as a set technician. You can start at the bottom, or right at the top. Exciting times.

[Guest]

Can I ask what it is that you do Phil?

 

This is the great question that has long plagued the forum...what does Phil do?

 

R,

[Matthew W. Phillips]

If the goal is to work in the industry for many people, it's best to see how it's all done in as formal and standard a way as possible and it'd be very difficult to do that if the main person in charge is making all the decisions from a place of no experience.

 

I see...but I don't agree. If your boss is paying you then the "way things are done" are not based on standards but based on what they tell you to do. Even Taco Bell workers know that much. You don't go into TB and tell them "but McDonald's said do it this way!" :D

[Michael LaVoie]

Richards goal is not to direct, it's to DP. There are protocols and "setiquette" that are really good to know when you're in that position and it only comes from observation and or experience.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Michael LaVoie

[Phil Rhodes]

I don't shoot much, if that's what you're after!

 

I'm afraid there is a limit to my ability to keep giving away time, equipment and the favours of friends. Perhaps I just wasn't good enough at it - I was certainly never anything like a feature DP - but eventually, after a good few years, I became aware that there really wasn't really anywhere to go except more freebies and more producers who dint know when someone was doing them a favour.

 

But ultimately it isn't about my experience. Maybe I'm just an idiot. I certainty never expected to be the next big thing. It would have been nice to perhaps be the next small-to-medium-sized thing, though, and round here, unless you went to all the right schools and parties growing up, you can't realistically be anything.

 

I apologise if I seem harsh or if my news is unwelcome, but you did ask. I didn't create the situation. My intention is to save you a lot of expense, wasted time and frustration. I wish someone had been as frank with me.

 

You're already a respected cameraman, and in the UK that's a major achievement. I failed to manage it. Be happy.

 

P

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Richards goal is not to direct, it's to DP. There are protocols and "setiquette" that are really good to know when you're in that position and it only comes from observation and or experience.

It still has a ton of variance. When I was doing audio gigs, I observed DPs. Some were more formal and had the crew of grips, sometimes even ACs. Others had to do everything down to moving their own lights. The only thing they all had in common is that they kept good communication with the Director to find out what look they wanted. Many Directors (at least low/no budget realm) don't care about formality but just want a good and trainable person who listens and has a good attitude. Being overly "trained" can be negative for Directors in that it can result in feuds and disagreements between the two. Directors should always be the final authority on such things though.

[Michael LaVoie]

Truly independent, self financed filmmaking where the director is funding everything does tend to work that way. In that situation, as a DP, you must bend to the directors working methods if you wish to stay on the film. However, it's always good to be aware of the general procedures and protocols of a film set. A director working on a film in a situation where they've been hired can be fired off the movie just as easily as the DP if they're thought to be ruining the show. So my suggestion was to executive produce his own indie and watch how it all plays out in that sort of more formal arena where the director was hired, which is closer to what he describes he's looking to get into.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Michael LaVoie

[Matthew W. Phillips]

So my suggestion was to executive produce his own indie and watch how it all plays out in that sort of more formal arena where the director was hired, which is closer to what he describes he's looking to get into.

How is he to afford to fund a film where people who have the type of experience you are mentioning will work on?

[James Steven Beverly]

Can I ask what it is that you do Phil?

Phil mainly complains, which actually kinda works really well for the sad robot avatar he uses. Aside from that, he'sretty much an enigma. He does seem to have some knowledge of production and definately has opinions but I suspect he has guarded his annonimity because he can speak freely without anyone else knowing his true identity. I sincerely doubt, Phil Rhodes is his actual name but more a nom de plum. Just a thought.

[Guest]

I have never doubted Phil's technical knowledge. It is vast, that is clear.

 

I also don't doubt the difficulty of making a living in film in the UK. I keep pointing out that Canada is half the size of the UK and people make a living, just as they do in the UK (a few of them at least.)

 

The thing to do in Toronto is to head for LA or NYC by hook or by crook. So many discover that they work LESS once they get there. Same problem, you're a tiny fish in a giant pond in those markets. And the competition is 10X as fierce.

 

R,

[Brian Drysdale]

There are limited number of UK DPs who will shoot A list feature films, but the same applies to US born DPs, although a number in the DPs shooting these films in the USA do came from the UK. A large feature film will often employ more than one DP, there is commonly a second unit DP, some have more..

 

Checking the British Society of Cinematographers members page will give some indication of the number of high end UK DPs, although most DPs aren't members .http://www.bscine.com/members/

 

If you wish to work on visually stylish productions, commercials are better in that regard than most UK feature films.. However, all these jobs are difficult to get and involve making the right connections and being involved in productions that allow you to develop your skills and knowledge.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Brian Drysdale

[James Steven Beverly]

Richie, I truly do consider you a genius. You managed, with virtually no help what so ever, to take a small film with limited appeal and parley it into national prominance with Walmart distribution. ANYONE looking at starting out as an indie filmmaker needs to read the archieve on how he created " Dark Reprieve" and how he leveraged that into a feature film career. The story is literally inspiring. Richard Boddington is amazing. Learn from him. I'm American which means I have access to the largest film industry in the world sans Bollywood and although I have a few things in the works, Richie has already shot his third feature which makes his "small fish in a big pond" arguement seem a bit modest at least. I like Phil but if you're gonna start whinning about how there's no way to succeed in your market, then all I can say is LOOK, JUST LOOK at one guy who took on the challange in a nonexistant market and made it happen against ALL the odds. Phil you can dewell on ALL the things that can stop you or you can pull the standard out of the dirt, hold it high and charge the ramparts, slamming wave after wave against the walls until you hammer out a breach and break through. NOTHING IS CERTAIN until you MAKE it certain. Phil doesn't own a magic, crystal ball nor does anyone else. Success grows from inovation and commitment.