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Valerian E Partenie

FRESH 16mm NEGATIVE B&W - PRODUCTION START

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I personally am very fond of the lighter details up to the highlights in projection. With a grey base film these parts of the image are masked.

 

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This is a serious error in your thinking. A grey base doesn't mask anything. The white projects 40% darker, the middle grey projects 40% darker, and the black projects 40% darker. If the room is dark and the projector is of normal brightness the eyes adjust to the dimmed image and the grey base has no visible effect. If the room has excessive light sources, like exit lights or incompletely covered windows, the 40% dimming of the projection would compromise the blacks, not the highlights.

Edited by Dennis Couzin

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In projection the image appears on a mat white surface in the dark. The beauty of it consists of the difference between the deepest blacks and the highest lights. Any veil cuts down on that brightness range. The density differences below base density simply don’t come out, the highlights are lost. The lightest parts of the image appear as a uniform grey.

 

You are right about the shadows, that they’re lost upon stray light. Ambient light cuts on the other end of the luminance range.

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In projection the image appears on a mat white surface in the dark. The beauty of it consists of the difference between the deepest blacks and the highest lights. Any veil cuts down on that brightness range. The density differences below base density simply don’t come out, the highlights are lost. The lightest parts of the image appear as a uniform grey.

 

This "veil" reasoning, like your earlier "mask" reasoning, is plain wrong.

 

The emulsion is coated on the grey base. The developed emulsion has a range of densities and the base has a constant density. The film density is the sum of the two. So the film density range is exactly equal to the developed emulsion density range. QED

 

You speak of "brightness range". Probably you mean luminance by "brightness" and you are subtracting the lowest luminance from the highest luminance to measure a luminance range. You should be dividing the highest luminance by the lowest luminance to measure the luminance range, because that ratio is what accords with vision. QED

 

When you say that "the lightest parts of the image appear as ... grey" I imagine you examining the developed film on a light table. Then the lightest parts of the film do appear grey. The grey base is grey! It is grey relative to the white of the light table. Now mask off the white of the light table, even in the film perforations, so the transilluminated film is all you see. The lightest parts of the film now appear white. QED

 

If you examine the whole image under these conditions the contrast is less than it is by projection. This is due to the Callier Effect, not the grey base. A light table transilluminates diffusely and a projector transilluminates more nearly specularly and the Callier Effect for the B&W emulsion is substantial. The diffuse density range is expanded by nearly the Callier factor to the projection density range. So a light table, even well masked, is a poor way to evaluate the tonality of B&W images intended for projection.

 

Grey bases are achieved by dyes so the base is hardly diffusing and doesn't reduce the Callier factor of the film. In all, reversal processed grey-based film is OK for projection. The 0.2 density of the base has the same effect as a ND 0.2 filter on the projector lamp or the projector lens. It should not be necessary to explain this in this forum.

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News and Recommendations

 

I have learned from Foma in Czech Republic that a Valerian E Partenie is negotiating with them to resell their Fomapan film cut and perforated 16 mm by them.

Why did Mr. Partenie conceal this information from the forum?

Why doesn't Mr. Partenie sell the Fomapan film with the Foma label so the buyers know what they are getting?

If he plans to later substitute other product, he must be prevented from doing this from the start.

  1. Demand that Mr. Partenie drop his absurd "Valerian's Fresh Films" label and resell Foma film as "Foma"!
  2. Demand that Mr. Partenie say who he is and where he is!
  3. If he refuses, make a different arrangement for redistributing specially slit/perfed Fomapan.
Edited by Dennis Couzin
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Why do you care so much? He's just pooling together a minimum order and you're derailing this thread with an intensely hypothetical technical discussion.

 

I do think that concealing the manufacturer was a bit odd, but its certainly no reason for outcry.

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He wouldn't be the first person to sell a product that was produced by another manufacturer and rebadged as their own. But there probably is something sinister, nefarious even about it. Perhaps Valerian is a super villain and is going to use his extensive 16MM film monies to take over the world and destroy all the digital cameras on the planet and force everyone to learn how to use a light meter.....

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Dennis,

 

You definitely are a very informed and up to date guy! Your knowledge "on everything" is truly remarkable! Respect on this gift of yours!

However, your habit of digging in everything until you get to its DNA is very unhealthy for you and for the people around you...

Despite my bad habit of making silly jokes and ending my sentences with " he he " I will not do this on any of my sentences on this post of mine....

Your existence is truly unique! I sincerely feel sorry for you...I will refrain from making any further comments on this subject.

 

Preamble: This thread was started for the solely purpose of gathering information regarding the opportunity of producing a new product: 16mm negative B&W film of the speeds stated in the first post.

The tech specs available for download were added later for everybody to consult. Also, a survey was added for people to declare their opinions and share their opinions.

The name of the product offered was : Valerian's Fresh Film.

 

Product development: The 16mm negative B&W film was never produced by Foma therefore this product is NOT offered by them. This new product will be produced by Foma at my personal suggestion. It will be produced under private label. The label with the product's name "Valerian's Fresh Film" will be printed by me and applied on all the 16mm negative b&w films that will be produced. Foma logo will be on the product label (as part of the label design) and they will be indicated as the producer of the film!

 

Regarding the subject you have brought up, here are the answers. I will post them without the intention of further conversation on this subject.

 

Question 1 : "I have learned from Foma in Czech Republic that a Valerian E Partenie is negotiating with them to resell their Fomapan film cut and perforated 16 mm by them. Why did Mr. Partenie conceal this information from the forum?"

Answer: I will not resell their "Fomapan film cut and perforated 16mm" The correct sentence is: They will produce for me, at my order, 16mm negative b&w films with the tech specs we agreed, product that I will resell. The main reason that I have concealed this information from the forum is not to involve their name publicly. There are a few forum members that had contacted me in private, and they can confirm, that I had gladly revealed the producer's name to them. You did not do that...

The second reason was not to drag Foma's name into a public dispute. However, despite my efforts, words like "Foma's spectral sensitivity data is primitive" were posted by you, without me revealing the producer's name...

Question 2: "Why doesn't Mr. Partenie sell the Fomapan film with the Foma label so the buyers know what they are getting?"

Answer: This post, as stated into the preamble, was intended to gather information from the market. The product simply does not exist yet! Nor the label...There is nothing to sell at this time.

The future of this product is already described in the preamble.

Affirmation 1: "If he plans to later substitute other product, he must be prevented from doing this from the start."

Answer: There is no substitution involved here.

Demand 1: "Demand that Mr. Partenie drop his absurd "Valerian's Fresh Films" label and resell Foma film as "Foma"!"

Answer; Since this is a new product and it will be made under a private label the name "Valerian's Fresh Films" will be printed on the product's label along with the producer's logo.

Demand 2: "Demand that Mr. Partenie say who he is and where he is!"

Answer: I am Valerian E Partenie (also the name on this forum's account) the person that the Foma representatives already told you about.

Demand 3: "If he refuses, make a different arrangement for redistributing specially slit/perfed Fomapan"

Answer : With all due respect, I don't understand what do you want me to answer at this demand of yours...It looks to me like an ultimatum...and I do refuse to discuss it...

I truly hope that the above answers will be fairly understood by anyone who read this post of mine.

In conclusion: I would like to share with you all my personal impressions regarding this post of mine...

This post is my first experience with meeting people from all over the world that are reunited through a common interest: cinematography

The thread that I started here, as you have roughly found it, is a genuine one.. It is a personal action of mine, feeling sorry for the analog film's life...

So I took action and found a solution of producing a new product for less money! I'm investing my money to do this (I never asked you of any money!)

I was only interested if any potential buyers! In fact this was (and still is) the purpose of this thread...

All of you understood and we had a pleasant conversation (on the forum or as PM) except ONE that went to the producer to look for me...

Even after the producer confirmed me as the person that he is dealing with for this project...that ONE person starts a lot of demands...

This being said, Dennis, from now on I will never read or give any answer to any of your posts.

Once again, I can assure you of my sincere admiration for your knowledge of things, but you are far from the person that I would ever have a pleasure to have a chat with.

Therefore, please do not post anything else on this thread of mine! I will gladly read any other post of yours, that are truly very documented, but not on this thread.

Sincerely,

Valerian E Partenie

Edited by Valerian E Partenie
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Further information on the product:

The product is entirely financed by a company based in Wrexham, UK . The 34 cans will be then produced by Foma and shipped to UK.

Each can will be labeled with the private label (as described in my previous post) according to the film speed contained in the cans.

Each can ordered will be shipped from UK (TNT carrier, Express delivery (3-4 days)) all over the world.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

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He wouldn't be the first person to sell a product that was produced by another manufacturer and rebadged as their own. But there probably is something sinister, nefarious even about it. Perhaps Valerian is a super villain and is going to use his extensive 16MM film monies to take over the world and destroy all the digital cameras on the planet and force everyone to learn how to use a light meter.....

Regarding your first concern...you have all the explanation in my post.

Regarding your other affirmation, I'm not in the mood to give you an answer...but if I would have been in the mood, I would have answered you: "Right said Fred! he he "....

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Dennis,

 

...... your habit of digging in everything until you get to its DNA is very unhealthy for you and for the people around you...

 

.......The main reason that I have concealed this information from the forum is not to involve their name publicly.

.......The second reason was not to drag Foma's name into a public dispute.

 

......The product simply does not exist yet!

 

Denis was the only one with the tech knowledge and determination to find out the truth. He should be thanked for that.

 

Was there ever a legitimate reason to conceal the fact that it was Foma? All I can imagine is that Foma may be generally receptive to doing these minimum bulk orders and it's better that no one knows that.

 

Having concealed Foma is precisely what has brought their name into this little fracas.

 

The product simply does not exist yet? There's some sleight of hand there. The stock formulation exists, the slitting and punching processes exist (as used for their reversal).

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Denis was the only one with the tech knowledge and determination to find out the truth. He should be thanked for that.

 

Was there ever a legitimate reason to conceal the fact that it was Foma? All I can imagine is that Foma may be generally receptive to doing these minimum bulk orders and it's better that no one knows that.

 

Having concealed Foma is precisely what has brought their name into this little fracas.

 

The product simply does not exist yet? There's some sleight of hand there. The stock formulation exists, the slitting and punching processes exist (as used for their reversal).

 

Unbelievable post of yours since you are one of the members that I have shared the manufacturer's name with!

YOU NEW ABOUT FOMA BEFORE Dennis did "his research", yet you are the first to thank Dennis for "the truth"!

 

Pardon me but I'm amazed by your attitude?

 

Please confirm or deny! that I have revealed you the manufacture's name in a PM...just for the truth's sake

 

Valerian

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No problem from my side confirming what the truth is. I did make a mistake.

 

I received about three PMs from you and in one, on reading it fully now, it infers (I think) that the stock is Foma. Previously, when reading it, I had stopped at these words (your caps)...

 

"..since Foma is NOT producing it...".

 

You are a tricky read.

 

The only way to clearly show what was shared is to paste it below. We'll take your challenge to show the truth as tacit approval.
But first, let's culture some logic here. Telling a small number is not the same as publicly telling everyone.

 

Valerians PM to me...12/11/14
"Well, you there are people and people out there...you've already seen this guy talking about "Foma's spectral sensitivity data is primitive compared to Kodak's" WITHOUT knowing that the product will be made by Foma!!

 

With people KNOWING that it it a Foma product, they will instantly start talking about Foma (good things or bad things) while the thread was about a product that NO ONE could have an opinion on it, since Foma is NOT producing it! Therefore, the personal opinion regarding a company or other products from that company that you have may tested in the past, would have been reflected over a new product, possibly creating a faulty general opinion! At this time you can say your opinion about foma 35mm photo films or 16mm reversal cine films but no one can say something about Foma 16 mm negative film....not even me! he he

 

Please tell me if I was clear enough in my dissertation on the subject! he he

 

Sure everybody will know that since Foma logo will be on the label ("Valerian's Fresh Film" logo and "by Foma logo" will be on the label)!! But for the present time I do consider that it is not an advantage to make it known.

 

Cheers,

Valerian"

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In the 1980's I and others working in 16 mm optical printing wanted a 16 mm version of Eastman 5369 (High Contrast Panchromatic Film). 7362 was available, but having the panchro hicon film saved one printing step and it was a sharper film. Kodak accepted a special order for (as I recall) 36 400' rolls of 7369. I dealt with pooling the money. I didn't put my label on the rolls. I was happy to not end up with too too many rolls for myself.

 

Kodak was willing to make specially slit and perforated batches of the emulsions on the bases it already made. Kodak still is, but its minimum order is now 420 400' rolls. Foma is willing to make specially slit and perforated batches. Their minimum order might be 68 400' rolls.

 

Mr. Partenie didn't agree to my first recommendation. Why-oh-why must his ego stick on every can of film he resells? Does he want your film credits to say "shot on Valerian's Fresh Film" rather than "shot on Foma film"?

He ducked the second part of my second recommendation. I believe he is not in the UK. Does "Director, Wrexham, UK" mean director of a shell company in Wrexham, UK?

 

If the participants in this strand accept Mr. Partenie's way of doing business or are too lazy to do it better what can I say but: he he.

Edited by Dennis Couzin

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Thanks for confirming and posting my PM to you...The information revealed is quite relevant for the subject.(As I recall I even sent you a video link of a 16mm REVERSAL Foma film that we both agree that it looks quite nice... therefore there is no reason why the Foma 16mm NEGATIVE to have worse results...)

 

Please confirm or deny this too...for the truth's sake too....

 

Valerian

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Gregg, pardon me but your ignorance on internet posting is beyond any limit!

 

Here is the difference! And the BIG one!!!

 

Posting something ON a forum page can be seen by EVERYONE EVEN WITH A GOOGLE SEARCH as it is PUBLICLY POSTED ON A FORUM! while a PM CAN NOT BE ACCESSED BY GOOGLE SEARCH!

 

So, you can say whatever bad words you wanna say about what company you want to say....NOBODY EXCEPT YOU AND THE RECIPIENT will see it!!

 

 

I feel such a bitter taste in my mouth...

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On checking, again, you did disclose earlier that Foma was to be the manufacturer...

 

But.....
GREG: Do you have any samples of processed film you can put online?
VAL: No since this film has not been produced yet!

 

I did enjoy the clip of the Foma reversal you shared, and I remember thinking that I hoped that your film, which had never been produced yet, would look as good as that.

 

Whether Foma neg will look the same or as good as, vs a vs? I don't know. I asume more grain and lower contrast?

 

This should just about conclude our little sidebar in this nonsense.

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On checking, again, you did disclose earlier that Foma was to be the manufacturer...

 

But.....

GREG: Do you have any samples of processed film you can put online?

VAL: No since this film has not been produced yet!

 

I did enjoy the clip of the Foma reversal you shared, and I remember thinking that I hoped that your film, which had never been produced yet, would look as good as that.

 

Whether Foma neg will look the same or as good as, vs a vs? I don't know. I asume more grain and lower contrast?

 

This should just about conclude our little sidebar in this nonsense.

No further comments. I'll ask you kindly to do the same...

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Gregg, pardon me but your ignorance on internet posting is beyond any limit!...

 

Posting something ON a forum page (vs a) PM....

 

...I feel such a bitter taste in my mouth...

 

 

You challenged me to show the truth. How else could one do it? What was disclosed? Well, it depends how well one can read the writing. For me those messages bubble with intrigue and missdirection. It's a headache.

 

Now you are looking for someone to blame for this confused mess?

 

You should have been open from the beggining.

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Gregg,

I have NO problem with you posting my PM! Fact that I THANK YOU FOR!! You did the right thing!

 

My dissertation on the difference between revealing something on a forum page and reveling it on a PM was about your affirmation: "But first, let's culture some logic here. Telling a small number is not the same as publicly telling everyone."

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Val,

Very good. If that was you turning that into humour, well done. I actually laughed at that one.

 

We're done.

 

There are a couple of smart guys here, Dennis and Simon. Some civil, interogative exchange with them might actually be quite usefull beyond this point, if that is possible.

 

Cheers,

Gregg

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Val,

Very good. If that was you turning that into humour, well done. I actually laughed at that one.

 

We're done.

 

There are a couple of smart guys here, Dennis and Simon. Some civil, interogative exchange with them might actually be quite usefull beyond this point, if that is possible.

 

Cheers,

Gregg

Gregg, there was no kind of humor in my previous post ...actually I'm almost crying feeling helpless...

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Gregg, there was no kind of humor in my previous post ...actually I'm almost crying feeling helpless...

 

Then I'm sorry. But please try and enjoy the humour. I was the one being laughed at, and I laughed...

 

I think the potential of your project is great, just IMO it needs to be run transparently, all inclusively.

 

Good luck,

Gregg./

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Just to clarify some things that might be misinterpreted by any readers...

 

The words that I wrote "I'm almost crying feeling helpless" were to describe my helplessness to make myself understood by some people here...

Some people, that even if they have the whole information sent to them, here is what they did: "Previously, when reading it, I had stopped at these words (your caps)..."..since Foma is NOT producing it...".""

And look what they say about my message, that they had not the decency to read it in full: "You are a tricky read." ...."For me those messages bubble with intrigue and missdirection. It's a headache.

Now you are looking for someone to blame for this confused mess?"...

 

For God sake!! Am I sending messages to kids?

 

Recently, I had a death in my family...there was nothing to do for that person...that was the time when I really cried feeling helpless ...

 

Somehow I had the same feelings here with my last posts... I felt helpless

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On the brighter side...

 

I want to thank you all for your cooperation! The info needed was gathered. 100ASA will be made since most of you asked for it.

I'll contact each of you, once the product will be ready for shipping!

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

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