Framing in cinemascope

[Mark Dunn]

"I hear the word "passion" being thrown around all the time. What is passion? Have you looked up its definition? Or have you shaped your own definition in your head and decided it applied to me?

 

This is the part where I don't have to answer to you in that regard.

 

Thanks for the feedback, i just didn't like the passion part. I mean you don't know me in that perspective."

 

 

David has been practising his profession with, er, whatever I'm allowed to call it, for 25 years. He never makes personal remarks and what he has to say is always worth taking on board. Every word of it. Including the 'p' word.

[joshua gallegos]

No, Mark. I was responding to Bill. I just feel everyone has their own meaning of the word "passion".

[Justin Hayward]

How is anyone expected to tell a story in less than 10 minutes?

 

Pixar has some pretty amazing short films all under ten minutes. Plus, most film festival programmers will tell you to keep your short film under ten minutes for a better shot at getting programmed. If your short is 20 minutes, for example, then it will have to be better than two 10 minute films they were going to program because the block run times are limited.

[Bill DiPietra]

Well they do suck, I openly admit it. I wouldn't be on a board if I didn't know that.

I should also mention I did not use auto focus, that was all me, you should see the stuff I left out which was out of focus. The frame was 2.35:1 and I just wanted to experiment with it. As I mentioned before, I'm barely starting out and wouldn't want to spend thousands on a short, and I know I'm not good at all the technical stuff, but at least I know how it works. Thus far I've had two opportunities to do something and I've **(obscenity removed)**ed up. The smartest filmmakers surround themselves with technically proficient crew, and all they have to do is verbalize ideas and they end up looking like geniuses. That's the way it is, and that's the way it should be. So I can't help but to question myself as to why I want to do everything myself, and it's so simple. I want to know how it all works from beginning to end. So I figure, these past two shorts have been nothing but experiments. A drawing on the fridge if you will.

I hear the word "passion" being thrown around all the time. What is passion? Have you looked up its definition? Or have you shaped your own definition in your head and decided it applied to me? Let me give you its proper definition, and believe me this one little word has many. And this is THE number one use of the word.

Definition #1

any powerful or compelling emotion or feeling, as love or hate.

This is the part where I don't have to answer to you in that regard. You see I do have passion. My passion is to be the best mother**(obscenity removed)**ing filmmaker I can be. And I have intense emotions about that, because I am struggling with the technical poop. Being technical is the hub of all filmmaking of all creativity. Without any kind of technical ability, the work will fail abysmally. everything just becomes stifled and nothing will come through clearly. I haven't been smart by doing everything myself, and it's time to break away from that. I can do better, I have to allow the right opportunity where I have the proper funds and time to express my ideas.

Thanks for the feedback, i just didn't like the passion part. I mean you don't know me in that perspective.

In one post, you ask for honest feedback and say you can handle criticism, which is why I threw everything at you. Then you reply with "I'm barely starting out" and talk about how you don't have an experienced crew. Then David suggests that you take a look at music videos & commercials and you make an argument about that.

 

All the technical knowledge will come in time. But at what point will you realize that people here are trying to HELP you grow as a filmmaker with these suggestions?

[Justin Hayward]

But I feel music videos only visualize the things that are expressed in the music. In a sense music could still survive without a video, and commercials were broadcasted on a radio long before they were shown on television. I don't feel a Miller light commercial is telling me a story, it is just showing me a glass filled with frosty beer to stimulate my senses. Music videos are the same way, the song is already making me feel something, and videos only tend to externalizer those emotions.

 

 

This is the best beer commercial / music video / short film ever made and it's only a minute thirty! ;)

 

[joshua gallegos]

Bill, I barely took this up last October, I can say I'm fairly new at this with little experience, since I've only been doing this for a few months. I can't become Caleb Deschanel overnight. Most of the successful shorts I've seen from Sundance have had the budget and crew, which aided the film's success. but enough chatting, this isn't helping. And constructive criticism isn't about pointing out every single fault, it's about offering an alternative point of view as to how you would approach a situation and how you would do it differently. That's what most readers do in screenplays, but then again they are professional people.

 

I could just as easily point out errors in your films, but without offering a form to help it makes it cheap and standoffish.

[Satsuki Murashige]

The smartest filmmakers surround themselves with technically proficient crew, and all they have to do is verbalize ideas and they end up looking like geniuses. That's the way it is, and that's the way it should be.

 

That's not the way it works. You seem to be implying that if you had access to a "technically proficient crew," you would look like a genius too. You're being way too easy on yourself - learning to be a competent filmmaker is about making good choices, and if you haven't made a watchable film yet, it is because you made bad choices. It's that simple. Note all the mediocre films that get made every year with millions of dollars and the best crews money can buy. Money can't buy good judgement. Here is one of the first decisions that I have to make every time I am given a scene to shoot: which background do I want for my scene? This implies location, time of day, camera placement, and lens focal length. None of these things require anything but a camera, a lens, a tripod, some patience - and good aesthetic judgement.

 

I would advise you to take a few steps back from your work and judge it as objectively as you can. What choices did you make, shot to shot, scene to scene? Seeing the result, what different choices would you make now? That's the only way you will improve. I know this because that's where I was 10 years ago. I've put in my 10,000 hours and am just now becoming a competent filmmaker. So I'm sure you will get there too, most of us did eventually. But you can only grow if you are objectively honest with yourself about the quality of your work. I would also add that engaging in pissing contests online is probably a waste of your time that could be better spent elsewhere.

 

Lastly, your quote implies that "filmmakers" and "crew" are two separate groups of people working on a film. This is not only incorrect, it is also insulting to the crew. Most of them have decades of experience making films, and they work on set all year 'round. Listen to what they have to offer, and you will become a better filmmaker because of it. Best of luck on your journey.

[Satsuki Murashige]

As Cecil B. Demented said "Are you prepared to DIE for cinema?" That is what I personally take for passion. My AD said he is prepared to break his legs.

 

Well, consider the source... I'm hoping your AD wasn't on the "Midnight Rider" crew? It's just a movie folks, no one should get hurt playing make believe.

[JD Hartman]

Lastly, your quote implies that "filmmakers" and "crew" are two separate groups of people working on a film. This is not only incorrect, it is also insulting to the crew. Most of them have decades of experience making films, and they work on set all year 'round. Listen to what they have to offer, and you will become a better filmmaker because of it. Best of luck on your journey.

 

True, the crew will have moved on to the next project, while you're still reviewing, editing, etc. your footage. You might gain something by stepping back and helping out on another filmmaker's project.

Edited April 13, 2015 by JD Hartman

[Bill DiPietra]

Bill, I barely took this up last October, I can say I'm fairly new at this with little experience, since I've only been doing this for a few months. I can't become Caleb Deschanel overnight. Most of the successful shorts I've seen from Sundance have had the budget and crew, which aided the film's success. but enough chatting, this isn't helping. And constructive criticism isn't about pointing out every single fault, it's about offering an alternative point of view as to how you would approach a situation and how you would do it differently. That's what most readers do in screenplays, but then again they are professional people.

I could just as easily point out errors in your films, but without offering a form to help it makes it cheap and standoffish.

Josh, go back to my first post in this thread - it's the first one on this page. I flat out told you not to be so hard on yourself. And I DID point out what I liked about the film. At the end of the post I even said that if you were ever in NYC, I'd be happy to work with you (an offer that still stands.)

 

Your response was to label the short film genre as "unimportant." Do you really think that kind of comment is going to win you any favor in this forum? To be completely clear...yes, I took that personally. So when you asked for someone to be completely honest about your film, I was. Combine both posts and you have some constructive criticism.

 

When I make a short film, I put all of my passions & efforts into it because, if I'm doing it, it's something I believe in deeply. It's something I feel. Something that I NEED to get out there. For me, these are not random projects that I am simply using as experiments for when I get to make a feature. This IS my filmography and I'm damn proud of it. I may make a feature someday, I may not. But if I don't I will in no way consider myself a failure as a filmmaker.

[Dylan Sunshine Saliba]

 

Well, consider the source... I'm hoping your AD wasn't on the "Midnight Rider" crew? It's just a movie folks, no one should get hurt playing make believe.

Yes indeed sir, I KNEW that comment wasn't going to go over well considering those knuckleheads poor choices. Hindsight being 20/20 and all.

 

 

 

David has been practising his profession with, er, whatever I'm allowed to call it, for 25 years. He never makes personal remarks and what he has to say is always worth taking on board. Every word of it. Including the 'p' word.

 

And Mr. Dunn, I would sooner poke my eyes out than go against anything Mr. Mullen ASC contributes. From what I've read of his posts, consummate professional doesn't even begin to describe the level he is on and the respect he deserves...I was trying to quote the OP from an earlier post, however I'm not too slick with these dang ole fancy 'puters. You kids with your hulu hoops and Zima!

[Mark Dunn]

My error has been pointed out to me.

[Satsuki Murashige]

Yes indeed sir, I KNEW that comment wasn't going to go over well considering those knuckleheads poor choices. Hindsight being 20/20 and all

It's all good :) Once you personally know friends and colleagues who have been killed, maimed, or put in harm's way on set for no good reason, it's hard not to get angry about that kind of nonsense. Glad to know we're on the same page.

[Dylan Sunshine Saliba]

Once you personally know friends and colleagues who have been killed, maimed, or put in harm's way on set for no good reason, it's hard not to get angry about that kind of nonsense.

[David Mullen ASC]

Though both movies run about 28 minutes, two classic short films worth studying are "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" and "La Jetee", the first in particular is what I would call a classic short film (adapted from a classic short story.) Simple premise, strong set-up, builds to a climax, and has a memorable, haunting ending. It wouldn't have the same impact if stretched out to feature length.

[David Mullen ASC]

If your bent is more experimental, non-narrative, there is Bunuel's "Un Chien Andalou" and Maya Deren's "Meshes in the Afternoon"...

[joshua gallegos]

Thank you. I think I shouldn't get too caught up in trying to be something that I'm not. I should just have fun with this and not be too critical about it as it drains all the fun away. My favorite shorts are Bottle Rocket by Wes Anderson and Cigarettes & Coffee by PT Anderson. Also David Lynch has made amazing short films, but who has the mind to do what he does, he's so unique.

 

I should take a break from online forums and try to do my own thing and just learn from trial an error and find my own way. I should stop caring about what other people will think and be glad I was able to make something. I think I've seen Un Chien Andalou, that's the short where ants are coming out of a person's skin, it was sickening.

Edited April 14, 2015 by joshua gallegos

[Satsuki Murashige]

Thank you. I think I shouldn't get too caught up in trying to be something that I'm not. I should just have fun with this and not be too critical about it as it drains all the fun away.

 

So, you're giving up then? Do you just want to have fun, or do you want to get better?

 

If your goal is truly to be a great filmmaker one day, then you must be very critical of your own work. Again, the key is to be objective - the words you've used so far to critique your work are just a litany of subjective terms, "terrible", "garbage", "failure." This is fundamentally lazy and unhelpful - not words, by the way, that I associate with any good filmmaker. You've got to change your attitude if you want to get better.

 

Be truly humble - instead of retreating into the safety of your own cocoon, really listen and be open to advice from all sides. Understand and accept that you know very little, and be willing to learn from anyone who may know more than you. Honestly and deeply consider all criticisms before rejecting them. Practice. Analyze. Push yourself to do better. Rinse and repeat 10,000 times. If it's that important to you, you'll find a way to get it done.

[David Mullen ASC]

Keep in mind that the life of an artist isn't easy. You spend your life trying to find that balance of self-criticism that allows you to improve and yet self-confidence that allows you to move forward, and that is a delicate balance -- some people suffer at times from too much of one or the other. Plus there are no guarantees of reward; sometimes the ego-driven hack will win out in the market over the hard-working, highly-skilled artisan.

 

The trick is to find a way of enjoying the process, something that I have to remind myself of all the time.

[John E Clark]

Though both movies run about 28 minutes, two classic short films worth studying are "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" and "La Jetee", the first in particular is what I would call a classic short film (adapted from a classic short story.) Simple premise, strong set-up, builds to a climax, and has a memorable, haunting ending. It wouldn't have the same impact if stretched out to feature length.

 

It would have been called "Jacob's Ladder"(1990)... It's sort of interesting that the writer for this movie and "Ghost"(1990) was one and the same... Bruce Joel Rubin.

 

Adrian Lyne is said to have been influenced by Robert Enrico's "An Occurence at Owl Creek Bridge"(1962).

Edited April 14, 2015 by John E Clark

[joshua gallegos]

No, I didn't say I was giving up, I just need to enjoy the process more as David mentioned above. The least enjoyable part of my work is looking at all the technical stuff, it makes me cringe. There was something Sean Bobbit said which was interesting, he said that usually beginners will resort to handheld when they run out of ideas, and it's true. But I feel beginners like myself are heavily limited. I didn't have the right lens, I couldn't get the shots I wanted with such a short wide lens, and the room was too small to put the camera where I wanted it. I needed a 50mm to get tighter, But again, at least I didn't spend a lot of money. In short I can't seem to incorporate my ideas as I see them and that's really what making a film is all about. So, I figure if I keep doing everything myself it will take me long years to become a proficient technician. I'm thinking of assembling an actual film crew for my next project and fund it properly, it's the only way good quality work can be made.

[Bill DiPietra]

I should take a break from online forums and try to do my own thing and just learn from trial an error and find my own way.

 

While I understand and agree with some of what Satsuki said, I think taking a step back like you are saying is a good thing. The few production classes I had in college taught me the basics, but the rest I learned by watching films, reading, being part of this forum and...trial and error. And I did eventually find my own way, but I am also aware of the fact that I still have tons to learn.

 

Look, you're not going to learn all the technicalities of filmmaking over-night, but you will need to learn a certain amount of fundamentals so that you can communicate with your cinematographer. And you need to stop looking for perfection in your projects. First of all, it just doesn't happen. And you will find that the imperfections in filmmaking often add to the project. But right now you are at the very early stages of your film career...so you should have fun with it. Now more than ever because this will be the least stressful period you will experience in your life if you decide to stick with it.

 

I would also suggest that you start reading a few books that are geared more towards the technical side. Probably the best one is Cinematography by Kris Malkiewicz & David Mullen. I read an earlier edition around 1998 - around the same time I joined this forum - and it cleared up a lot of things for me. And you should watch every film that you can get your hands on. In addition to the experimental works of Maya Deren (by the way, Meshes of the Afternoon is my absolute favorite avant-garde film,) also check out Stan Brakhage, Kenneth Anger, Chantal Ackerman & Jan Svankmajer. Even if you never make an avant-garde film, it's good to expose yourself to this stuff. You'd be surprised how many ideas I've gotten for my own films just from having watched theirs.

 

Watch, read, ASK, discuss, shoot. And repeat over & over.

 

And remember that this forum is always here for you.

[Satsuki Murashige]

No, I didn't say I was giving up, I just need to enjoy the process more as David mentioned above. The least enjoyable part of my work is looking at all the technical stuff, it makes me cringe. There was something Sean Bobbit said which was interesting, he said that usually beginners will resort to handheld when they run out of ideas, and it's true. But I feel beginners like myself are heavily limited. I didn't have the right lens, I couldn't get the shots I wanted with such a short wide lens, and the room was too small to put the camera where I wanted it. I needed a 50mm to get tighter, But again, at least I didn't spend a lot of money. In short I can't seem to incorporate my ideas as I see them and that's really what making a film is all about. So, I figure if I keep doing everything myself it will take me long years to become a proficient technician. I'm thinking of assembling an actual film crew for my next project and fund it properly, it's the only way good quality work can be made.

Good to hear that you are sticking with it. With limited resources, they way to maximize your production value is to use what you have. If you only have a 35mm lens, then write and design a film that will work on that lens. If your location doesn't work, change it to someplace else. That doesn't cost you any money. When you are learning, don't write stuff that you have no chance of shooting, set yourself up to succeed and build your confidence.

 

Most of us started making films his way. I started making silent Super 8 films with a fixed zoom lens and a tripod in film school, because that's what I had. I used locations that were freely available to me and would work with the slow filmstock that I had, day exteriors in the city, mostly. When I wanted to shoot in dim interiors like the subway, I undercranked the camera to get an exposure and made a style out of it.

[joshua gallegos]

I usually do stuff in a hotel since audio is costly, I recorded all the audio on a Rode mic, i think the standard setting is 24db, and it didn't turn out too bad. Hotels are usually cheap to rent, so in camera, lens and rode mic rentals I ended up spending about 200 dollars. It's a significant amount of money to me, but worth it in the sense that I got to make something. The short I really wanted to make was about a cult, but that required an actual budget. This recent short I made on a whim, but I was disappointed in the lack of fluidity. I think I did a better job on my first short in that regard, but maybe it's because I shot a lot of pages in so little time, we barely managed to finish as everyone had to go and I only had on battery which required waiting time.

 

Bill, thanks great advice. I actually have read parts of the book, which talks about cinematographers working with directors, only a lot of that doesn't apply to me yet since I do everything myself. I think filmmaking requires a sort of philosophy, it's a thinking man's game, you have to be able to see your vision and translate it to the camera. Films tend to have a tempo and rhythm and I feel that's one of the things I have to work on among many others. I think working with a crew on my next short will enable me to perform better and think more clearly. So, I don't think I'll ever give up since this is what I love to do. So many filmmakers make it look so easy, its incredibly challenging to get any kind of good looking image on camera.

[Satsuki Murashige]

Just remember that the money you spent on a hotel room could also have gone toward renting another lens or hiring a film student to do sound for you if you had used a location that you already had free access to.

 

If you decided to make a silent film instead, perhaps that extra shooting time saved would have given you more time to concentrate on your shots. Most pages in a screenplay are devoted to dialogue. Filmmaking is all about figuring where to best make compromises.