JD Hartman Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Yeah, I remember being kinda let down when one of my features was shown at his festival in this little theater in Teaneck NJ. I expected it to be in Hoboken. Who would bother going to Teaneck? Have no fear, this year is was held in its new home Middletown New York. “One of the 10 biggest film festivals in the world” – FOX & MY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael LaVoie Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 In almost all the movies I have written neither the cast nor the crew got paid, I think the exception might be Out Of Here. Out of Here looks great. But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that's because it was a paid professional crew. Also Donal appears to have been at this a while. There's a difference when the crew and people running the show are seasoned pros. They can cut corners without cutting quality as much. Someone like Ed Burns for instance can spend 4 million on Purple Violets and then also go and make Nice Guy Eddie for $25K. But he knows what he's doing and it's not his first rodeo. It's easy to jump on board a film with someone like that steering the ship. It's when people who have no background try to make films on a shoestring that it usually goes south in a hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albion Hockney Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Meaning creative people with that intellect or creative potential? If they are early in their career and unfamous you may get to meet one of them. Trick is, dare I say it, would you recognize them? How? What would their ideas sound like, what would their work look like? The best place to look is maybe among artist who want to make films, rather than among film makers who may wish they were artists. I think this is actually very true. So many people in this business are in just that "the business" and they want to be "Film directors" . The people who really make it in the first tier are people who are interested in making Art. Now take away all the bullshit assumptions of pretension and such you associate with Art and think about the simple idea that its about people who have some voice/perspective they are looking to get out there. People want to say something. Making a good film/mv/ even commercial is not about watching a bunch of well known classical film and trying to create one yourself, its about having your own voice. Find people who have a voice and work with them, even if they are technically behind you as a DP you can help them say what they when more coherently. It of course depends on the project, but I often find myself in situations of helping Directors use the language of film, as a DP i feel I study the hell out of the camera and how shots cut together tell stories, being a DP in my opinion isn't just lighting pictures and framing up nice shots. Its helping the director communicate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tyler Purcell Posted June 29, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted June 29, 2015 It of course depends on the project, but I often find myself in situations of helping Directors use the language of film, as a DP i feel I study the hell out of the camera and how shots cut together tell stories, being a DP in my opinion isn't just lighting pictures and framing up nice shots. Its helping the director communicate. Couldn't agree more. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted June 30, 2015 Author Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2015 Curious, recently you mentioned taking a "staycation". Prior to that break from your other job, didn't you try and find some DP jobs to take advantage of your freedom? Not really. Been too busy with the post-production aspects of my short. But I am realizing that, in order to get any kinds of interesting projects that allow you to try new things in your craft, you need to have some kind of reel out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Not really. Been too busy with the post-production aspects of my short. But I am realizing that, in order to get any kinds of interesting projects that allow you to try new things in your craft, you need to have some kind of reel out there. So then you need "reel fodder", even if it's 20 seconds of well composed and beautifully lit footage from a short that you hired on to. You wouldn't necessarily have to have real passion for the story or personal investment in it. No?? Edited June 30, 2015 by JD Hartman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted June 30, 2015 Author Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2015 So then you need "reel fodder", even if it's 20 seconds of well composed and beautifully lit footage from a short that you hired on to. You wouldn't necessarily have to have real passion for the story or personal investment in it. No?? Oh, I'm fully aware of that. Part of the problem is also that the few shorts I've made whose selected shots would be included in my reel exist only on film. I'm in the process of trying to find a post-house that will scan, not only my current short, but the rest of l them as well. But yes, I understand your point about product vs. passion. I'm actually dealing with that dilemma right now. Not crazy about the script and the director wants to shoot it one day, using a DSLR & only existing light. Can it be done? Sure. Will it look good? Probably not. There is no pay either. I have no problem shooting something for credit & copy since I'm just really starting out in the freelance world. The thing I keep asking myself is "Will I want this on my reel?"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Oh, I'm fully aware of that. Part of the problem is also that the few shorts I've made whose selected shots would be included in my reel exist only on film. I'm in the process of trying to find a post-house that will scan, not only my current short, but the rest of l them as well. But yes, I understand your point about product vs. passion. I'm actually dealing with that dilemma right now. Not crazy about the script and the director wants to shoot it one day, using a DSLR & only existing light. Can it be done? Sure. Will it look good? Probably not. There is no pay either. I have no problem shooting something for credit & copy since I'm just really starting out in the freelance world. The thing I keep asking myself is "Will I want this on my reel?"... Then as JD says at least make sure you get a few eye-poppers out of it. If you don't think you can, say no. If it's not for money, there has to be something in it for you, otherwise it's charity work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted June 30, 2015 Author Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2015 Then as JD says at least make sure you get a few eye-poppers out of it. If you don't think you can, say no. If it's not for money, there has to be something in it for you, otherwise it's charity work. Yup...agree completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 But yes, I understand your point about product vs. passion. I'm actually dealing with that dilemma right now. Not crazy about the script and the director wants to shoot it one day, using a DSLR & only existing light. Can it be done? Sure. Will it look good? Probably not. There is no pay either. I have no problem shooting something for credit & copy since I'm just really starting out in the freelance world. The thing I keep asking myself is "Will I want this on my reel?"... Available light only? Bring a few lights of your own. Make it look as good as you can given the time and equipment available, Make some crew contacts for the future and grab some stuff for your reel, walk away at the end and forget them (Producer, Director).. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Aapo Lettinen Posted June 30, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2015 you can get surprisingly good results with using only reflectors/bounces/mirrors/flags to shape the natural light. If they make this impossible with poor scheduling it is best to just walk away. You can bring your own lights if you want (make sure they help you with logistics, it's the least they can do) and build simple reflectors from scrap very quickly if needed. No lighting at all is very bad for reel material in most natural light situations (you get black eye sockets etc) so at least a simple reflector is almost always needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakesh Malik Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 It of course depends on the project, but I often find myself in situations of helping Directors use the language of film, as a DP i feel I study the hell out of the camera and how shots cut together tell stories, being a DP in my opinion isn't just lighting pictures and framing up nice shots. Its helping the director communicate. I agree completely with this. That also has lead to one of my biggest frustrations with the independent film community in general, which is the perception that the DP's primary job is to provide the camera package. A lot of these indies are happy to pay their editor and actors (not what any of them are truly worth, of course), but they invariably want the DP to volunteer AND provide gear. Needless to say, I avoid projects that don't seem like they'd be worth putting in my reel these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 At the end of the day, no one is being forced to work for free. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted June 30, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2015 In circumstances where the only way in is to work for free, or at least people are being told that it is, that's a matter of some debate. Due to the immense amounts of "internships" that are being offered in the UK at least, many professions now suffer this problem. Suffice to say it's not really OK to write this off as "people don't have to do it." They do, or at least they're regularly told that they do. P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albion Hockney Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 you can get surprisingly good results with using only reflectors/bounces/mirrors/flags to shape the natural light. If they make this impossible with poor scheduling it is best to just walk away. You can bring your own lights if you want (make sure they help you with logistics, it's the least they can do) and build simple reflectors from scrap very quickly if needed. No lighting at all is very bad for reel material in most natural light situations (you get black eye sockets etc) so at least a simple reflector is almost always needed this all just super dependent of the situation. some of the best stuff I have ever shot has been without lighting. Lighting is not a thing in itself....natural light is "Light" ....the lighting instruments you carry with you are just another option or way to craft the light. sometimes what is there already is better then anything you could ever do. half of this cinematography thing is about location scouting and building composition's that say something. Lighting is apart of both of those things, and if you can find the right location and the right frame where the sun is already working for you your in business! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Miguel Angel Posted June 30, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted June 30, 2015 I agree with Richard, nobody is being forced to work for free. You can become a director / editor / cinematographer / make up artist / set designer / etc without working for free or working for free for friends, it will take much more time but you have the option to go through the ranks and eventually be the head of the department. And I have to say that the best cinematographers I have worked with (with a couple of exceptions) are the ones who went through the rank, that applies to editors / set designers / etc. When working all your way up you know the complexities of the profession and know how to give alternatives and how to manage people, which is something that all heads of departments should know. it seems to me that younger generations want to be heads of departments right after school or right after buying a camera, and that's ok, some will do some will don't. Again, it depends on your circumstances, working for free will make you hone your skills easier and faster than not working for free, however, it might led you to small / indie jobs where there is no payment, or not! such is the beauty of this filmmaking business! :) Have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 this all just super dependent of the situation. some of the best stuff I have ever shot has been without lighting. Lighting is not a thing in itself....natural light is "Light" ....the lighting instruments you carry with you are just another option or way to craft the light. sometimes what is there already is better then anything you could ever do. half of this cinematography thing is about location scouting and building composition's that say something. Lighting is apart of both of those things, and if you can find the right location and the right frame where the sun is already working for you your in business! Light are tools, while the tools while still being refined, they are practical to use and available. We are no longer dragging "real" arc lights around, except for very special circumstances. Why not use lights to enhance/augment the available light and make your job easier? I guess I'm just someone who chooses technology over a piece of beadboard. I agree that both have their place. Or should we schedule the work around the position of the sun on a given time of day/season? Sorry, that's a wrap people, the sun has now moved to 34 degrees above the horizon and I simply can't work with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Looper Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Nobody works for free. There's always some sort of exchange going on, be it in terms of money, or some other deal. More important is whether it's a good deal. For example, an actor otherwise interested in commercial work might nevertheless work on a short low budget indie film in exchange for a copy of the resulting work. The idea being they can use the work to enhance their opportunities within a more commercial context. This quid pro quo that goes on within the low budget (or no budget) scene makes sense. In the absence of money the only way to make a film is by means other than money. It is an entreprenerial spirit in which everyone involved in the film is effectively an investor in the film. Everyone invests their time and energy, rather than money (because nobody has any money). But it's not everyone's cup of tea. Many might go into such a project and feel quite deflated by the outcome. The actor imagining they'll have a good show reel might end up with something they can't use. Not because they did a bad job, or the film wasn't any good, but the film might be one that just doesn't work as a show reel for the actor. All sorts of problems can happen. It's much easier to pay and be paid in money. From the producers point of view the money paid provides a bit more security that the work will actually get done - as it's an incentive for the participants involved to keep playing ball. And from the participant's point of view, if the work is not what they hoped it would be, at least they get a buck out of it. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 this all just super dependent of the situation. some of the best stuff I have ever shot has been without lighting. Lighting is not a thing in itself....natural light is "Light" ....the lighting instruments you carry with you are just another option or way to craft the light. sometimes what is there already is better then anything you could ever do. half of this cinematography thing is about location scouting and building composition's that say something. Lighting is apart of both of those things, and if you can find the right location and the right frame where the sun is already working for you your in business! Don't need any stinking lights. I'm going to build myself one of these. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison%27s_Black_Maria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted July 1, 2015 Author Premium Member Share Posted July 1, 2015 Thanks for the advice, everyone. In the end, I've decided to bow out of the project as I don't see much potential to create compelling imagery - and that's the reason I'm looking for projects. And yes, I would have gladly brought some of my own equipment, but as I'm still working out the insurance (currently, none of my stuff is covered) I'm not going to take any chances, especially since the director really only needs a camera operator - not a DP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Don't need any stinking lights. I'm going to build myself one of these. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison%27s_Black_Maria Have you seen the doc footage of Malic shooting The New World. If needing more light, just ripping holes in the thatch roof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Aapo Lettinen Posted July 1, 2015 Premium Member Share Posted July 1, 2015 Thanks for the advice, everyone. In the end, I've decided to bow out of the project as I don't see much potential to create compelling imagery - and that's the reason I'm looking for projects. And yes, I would have gladly brought some of my own equipment, but as I'm still working out the insurance (currently, none of my stuff is covered) I'm not going to take any chances, especially since the director really only needs a camera operator - not a DP. I think you should still charge at least SOMETHING for the gear. It's a matter of principle, you should be on the set because of your skills and not because you happen to own a piece of equipment the director and producer want for the production for free :blink: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted July 1, 2015 Author Premium Member Share Posted July 1, 2015 It's a matter of principle, you should be on the set because of your skills and not because you happen to own a piece of equipment the director and producer want for the production for free :blink: That's exactly why I bailed. And I explained that, had I had the insurance in place, I still would have charged the director a fee for the equipment. But she seemed concerned only with having enough light to shoot and that's something a first-year film student can figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Thanks for the advice, everyone. In the end, I've decided to bow out of the project as I don't see much potential to create compelling imagery - and that's the reason I'm looking for projects. And yes, I would have gladly brought some of my own equipment, but as I'm still working out the insurance (currently, none of my stuff is covered) I'm not going to take any chances, especially since the director really only needs a camera operator - not a DP. Bill, I also looked into Loss and Damage insurance for my equipment. A policy with a reasonable yearly premium carried a $250 deducible per incident. Unless there's a major theft on location or I have my entire truck stolen, I wouldn't ever be filing a claim. So I work like this, I make sure the production company understands and agrees to my rules for L&D. Other than burnt out globes and minor cosmetic damage, they are responsible for settling up daily. Other than one time where a $75 set of scrims went missing and they balked at paying, this has worked fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Hartman Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 That's exactly why I bailed. And I explained that, had I had the insurance in place, I still would have charged the director a fee for the equipment. But she seemed concerned only with having enough light to shoot and that's something a first-year film student can figure out. What did you expect to hear? Trivializing your skills and the contributions you bring is a classic tactic used by those losing an argument, "Well, we'll do just fine without you". Be certain to turn up at the first screening of her masterpiece and complement her on her achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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