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Lighting a Forest at Night


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HA! put it really far away and hope sound doesn't complain - been there a couple times. the EU generators are not that bad though you can generally work around it I think. I have had them right outside of windows powering HMI's with no problem at all. the problem really becomes more of an issue when shooting outside in non urban areas

 

Don't you then have the problem of loss in the 'long' extension cord???

 

I have been impressed with the quietness of the Honda generators... but then when I've used them it has been for situations where I'm not filming at all, let alone filming with sound... and I didn't think to bring my sound meter on those occasions...

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Don't you then have the problem of loss in the 'long' extension cord???

 

I have been impressed with the quietness of the Honda generators... but then when I've used them it has been for situations where I'm not filming at all, let alone filming with sound... and I didn't think to bring my sound meter on those occasions...

 

Depends on length, voltage, conductor material and gauge. You can calculate that here: http://www.lexproducts.com/technical-help/voltage-drop-calculator/

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How do you silence a Honda generator for dialogue shooting?

 

Whether you pick up generator noise or not comes down to how you use the generator as much as which generator you use. It is possible to record location audio without picking up generator noise if you use them with a transformer. To record sound without picking up generator noise you need a real distro system that will allow you to move the generator off set (like you would a Crawford), minimize line loss over a long cable run, and provide plug-in pockets conveniently close to set. That is where the transformer comes in.

 

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A Distro System consisting of a 60A Full Power Transformer/Distro, 2-60A GPC (Bates) Splitters, 2-60A Woodhead Box distributes power from a modified Honda EU6500is. Even though the generator is 100' away to reduce noise, plug-in points remain conveniently close to set.

 

To record sync sound without picking up any generator noise, all you need to do is add 200' - 300' of heavy duty 250V twist-lock extension cable between the generator and a Transformer/Distro. This is usually enough cable to place the generator around the corner of a building, or to run it out of a van or truck - which is usually all the additional blimping you need with these generators. The heavy-duty 250V twist-lock cable eliminates multiple long cable runs to the generator and minimizes line-loss; as well as, eliminates the voltage drop you would have using standard electrical cords.

 

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60A GPC (Bates) Splitters and Woodhead Box.

 

To assure full line level (120V) on set, use a Transformer/Distro designed to compensate for the slight line loss you will have over an extended cable run. Use one designed to slightly boost the voltage on the load side (secondary) so that if you were to feed the supply side (primary) of the transformer 240 volts from the generator, 127 volts would come out on the secondary side where you plug in the lights. This slight boost enables you to place the generator further from set where you won't hear it, yet assure that the supply voltage on set does not drop too low.

 

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60A Woodhead Box running Power-to-Light PFC 800W ballast (left) and PFC 1200W ballast (right.)

 

A good example of how our Transformer/Distro makes it possible to record clean audio tracks even under the worst of conditions is the indie short "Toothbrush." In this story of mistaken identity produced by Guymanly Productions, a pivotal scene takes place in the middle of a near vacant parking lot of an all night convenience store. With no building or other sound barrier within a reasonable distance to block the sound of the generator, Gaffer Aaron MacLaughlin had no recourse but to put it behind their grip truck as far from set as possible.

 

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As you can see from the photos below, he ran 300' of twist-lock extension cable from the generator to our Transformer/Distro hidden behind a newspaper box. From the Transformer/Distro he then ran 200' of 6/3 Bates Extension to set where he broke out to 20A Edison receptacles using a 60A snack box. While running the generator near full capacity with a lighting package that consisted of three 1200W HMI Pars and two 1k Baby Quartz Fresnels, he experienced no appreciable voltage drop on set even after a 500' cable run because our Select Transformer/Distro was able to compensate for both the line loss of the cable and voltage drop of the generator under near full load.

 

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Left: Scene in parking lot. Center: Transformer/Distro hidden behind newspaper box (set 200' in distance.) Right: Generator baffled by truck (Transformer/Distro

300' in distance.)

 

This example shows how the variable boost of our Select Transformer/Distros, not only enables you to place the generator further from set where you won't hear it, but also assures that the supply voltage on the secondary side of the transformer does not drop too low. By comparison, had Aaron run 500' of standard 14 Awg electrical cord he would have experienced a line loss alone of 24.5V (according to the line loss table below.) With that severe a voltage drop, his HMI ballasts would probably have cut out from low voltage as he added additional loads on the generator. Without the line-loss compensation of our Transformer/Distros, he would have had to move the generator closer to set where it would be picked up on the audio tracks.

 

GM_LineLoss_Table.jpg

 

Line loss compensation is just one of the many benefits to be gained by using our Full Power Transformer/Distro on our modified Honda EU6500is and EU7000is generators. Whether on exterior locations where house power is not available, or to simply supplement house power, our Full Power Transformer/ Distro offers a number of benefits when used to step-down the enhanced 7500W output of our modified Honda EU6500is and EU7000is.

 

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Two paralleled Honda EU6500s powering a 12k HMI Par.

 

For more details on the use of transformers with the Honda EU6500is for set power, and even how to parallel two of them for 100A output, I suggest you read the article I wrote for our company newsletter on the use of portable generators in motion picture production. Use this link for more information about using inverter generators with transformers for motion picture lighting.

 

Guy Holt, Gaffer,

ScreenLight & Grip

Lighting Rental & Sales in Boston

Edited by Guy Holt
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Some incredibly detailed posts here - thanks to everything who has contributed. I've learned a lot already from all of this. I've only ever used generators for our lighting on music video shoots, meaning sound/dialogue has never been an issue. But for a dialogue short-film, I guess it's a case of either moving the generator far away enough and downwind, or ADR the entire thing...

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... for a dialogue short-film, I guess it's a case of either moving the generator far away enough and downwind, or ADR the entire thing...

 

With a boost transformer there is no question whether you can move the generator far enough away so that it won’t be picked up on your audio tracks. This was proven by the independent feature “Gasp” when it used a Honda EB10000 to film an important beach scene at night.

 

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A feature film production powered by a Honda EB10000

 

Generating 72dbs at 23', the Honda EB10000 is more than twice as loud as the EU6500. A common problem with open-frame industrial generators like the EB10000 is that by the time you move them far enough off set that you don't hear them you have significant "Line Loss" (often referred to as "Voltage Drop") from the long cable run back to set (if you use regular cable.) To the problem of line loss, you have the added problem that as you add load, the voltage drops on portable generators (it is not uncommon for a generator to drop 5-10 volts under full load.)

 

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Campfire scene on the beach powered by a Honda EB10000

 

The combination of voltage drop on the generator and line loss on a long cable run can cause voltage to drop to the point where HMI and Kino ballasts cut out unexpectedly or won't strike at all. Low voltage can also cause problems such as reduced efficiency and excessive heat in equipment, unnecessary additional load on the generator, and a dramatic shift in the color temperature and in the output of lights (use this link for a details.) For these reasons, portable gas generators are typically operated too close to set where they are picked up on audio tracks. The trick to recording clean audio with the EB10000 is to use the generator with a boost transformer, like our 84A Full Power Transformer/Distros, that enables you to operate the generator at a distance without suffering from voltage drop.

 

 

EB10_Paralarva_Comp_1Sm.jpg

Left: Honda EB10000 operating out of grip truck (note set at distance (bright spot on right side.)) Center: 84A Full Power Transformer/Distro compensates for Voltage Drop over 400ft cable run. Right: Beach Set with 120v full line level 500ft from power source.

 

To record sync sound without picking up the noise of the generator, the crew of “Gasp” ran our modified 10kw Honda EB10000 out of their grip truck 500 ft from their beach set. To assure full line level on set, the production used the boost capacity of our 84A Transformer/Distro to compensate for the appreciable line loss over the long cable run.

 

 

EB10_Paralarva_Comp_2Sm.jpg

Left: Beach Set lit by Arri M18 and 6kw Par. Center: Secondary side power distributed with standard 100 Bates Gang Boxes. Right: Set viewed from generator (note: distance and extent of set power distribution.)

 

From the Transformer/Distro they then ran 4/3 Bates Extension to set where they broke out to 20A Edison receptacles using 100A gang boxes in order to power an assortment of smaller tungsten fixtures to simulate the firelight and an ARRI M18 to simulate moonlight on the actors around the fire. To light the deep background the crew put a 240V Siamese in-line before the transformer/distro to power a 6kw HMI Par. Even with a sizable load, they experienced no appreciable voltage drop on set even after a 500' cable run because the Transformer/Distro compensated for both the line loss of the cable and voltage drop of the generator under near full load.

 

EB_Gasp_ScreenShot_4.jpg

With nothing more than a Honda EB10000 and house power the crew of "Gasp" was able to maintain the look and feel of a sunny summer day even when filming in the midst of a hurricane in October.

 

The principle location for "Gasp" was an idyllic beach house right on the ocean. To light interiors of the beach house, the crew of "Gasp" used the Honda EB10000 to power two 4k Pars coming in from the outside, and house power to power an assortment of smaller HMI and Kino fixtures.

 

 

EB_Gasp_Composite.jpg

Left: Ready for rain on the set of "Gasp." Center: Two 4kw Pars operate on a 10kw Honda EB10000 Generator through our 84A Full Power Transformer/Distro. Right: 100A Shock Block GFCI downstream of Full Power Transformer/Distro offers Ground Fault Protection for entire 100A distro system.

 

The indie film "Gasp" is a good example of how the voltage boost capacity of a Transformer/Distro makes it possible to record clean audio tracks with even generators as loud as the EB10000 even under the worst of conditions.

 

Guy Holt, Gaffer

ScreenLight & Grip

Lighting Rental & Sales in Boston

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Another milestone of sorts was just set on the north shore of Boston. The feature film The Last Poker Game starring Martin Landau (Mission Impossible) and Paul Sorvino (Good Fellas) is wrapping its’ principle photography that was shot with nothing more than a Honda EU6500is.

 

The Last Poker Game just wrapped production and checked in their gear. For those who might be interested, here are some production stills from the production.

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Martin Landau and Paul Sorvino in a scene from The Last Poker Game

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Left: Honda EU6500is modified for 60A output, Center: 300ft cable run through the assisted living complex, Right: ARRIMAX M40 head creating sunny look on a rainy day.

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60A HD Plug-n-Play Transformer/Distro powering ARRIMAX M40 and M18 on the set of The Last Poker Game

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Paul Sorvino in a scene from The Last Poker Game

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Martin Landau and Paul Sorvino in a bar scene from The Last Poker Game

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ARRIMAX M40 powered by modified Honda EU6500 and 60A HD Plug-n-Play Transformer/Distro lights bar scene from The Last Poker Game

 

Guy Holt, Gaffer

ScreenLight & Grip

Lighting Rental & Sales in Boston

Edited by Guy Holt
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  • 2 years later...

Im going to bump this thread so I dont make a new one and clutter the place up.

 

Any idea how one can do this on a budget? And by budget I mean, like no money. I do this stuff as a hobby and dont have access to $10,000.00 lights and crews to rig all kinds of stuff.

 

What I do have...some portable work lights, CTB and CTO gels, a couple 5 in 1 reflectors, a couple cheap light stands.

 

Need to light a man standing in the woods above a shallow grave at night. And its not just close ups and medium close ups. There will be a long as well.

 

So not only do I need to figure out how to light using what I have and with very little money, I have to make it look real.

I dont necessarily want it to look crazy blue.

 

I see fog helps. That I could probably figure out.

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It seems we gave you a lot of advice already...

 

How are you going to power your work lights? A small portable Honda generator? Do you have to worry about sound?

 

The thing with moonlight is that it is like sunlight but only dimmer -- which means it covers the landscape and it comes from far away. So it is very hard to fake with small lights except in small enclosed spaces or tighter shots.

 

If you have to use multiple smaller lights to create a single source like the moon, it is generally easier than to side-light the action with rows of separated lights so the parallel shadows look like from a single source just broken up. Plus it is cheaper than backlighting from a condor crane.

 

But there is no law that a scene has to be lit by the moon unless there is no other source. If you have the person digging the grave with a Coleman lantern or a flashlight or by car headlamps, etc. then you can let the background fall off to black, you don't have to light it all up.

 

You can make the moonlight whatever shade of blue to white you want to, it's just that when it gets too warm or too bright or too white, it feels more like a tungsten source. But pale blue, desaturated to near grey, works fine.

 

At some point, if you don't have the lighting package to shoot a long shot, then you have to rethink things. Either have the actor lit with a practical source next to them or have no practical but shoot day for night or dusk for night. Or don't do a wide shot. Or spend the money on a bigger light and bigger generator. Or use visual effects, like combine a day for night plate with a night for night portion in the frame.

 

If the movement is very slow, you can undercrank on some cameras to shoot in lower light levels, so maybe you can back up your lighting for the wide but drop the frame rate to something like 6 fps to get two more stops of exposure. Obviously it would help to use fast lenses as well.

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No power. Portable, rechargeable work lights from Lowes.

 

So maybe use a practical ie: lantern or flashlight? You said I could let it fal off into black. like BLACK black? When opening the scene up a bit to show the grave its ok that theres a bunch of black space?

 

Again, Im new to this. I would like to be able to show more of the surroundings. Not like oh he must be in the woods...I can see a tree or two. More like oh poop, this dude dug a grave in the middle of nowhere.

 

If I could manage I guess I could use lights from a vehicle.

 

Another quick one...when lighting the subject, with the lantern at his feet, should my key be shooting up at him from the ground? Or can I light him from more of a neutral level?

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Put the lantern on a tree stump or branch or rock or car hood so that it isn't so low?

 

Once you establish some practical light, you can hit the background with some very dim light as if it is ambience from the practical reaching further back if you want to see more trees and bushes back there.

 

And you could have a lantern for the guy and have the car further in the background with the headlamps on as a second source to light the background or mid ground. Plus some smoke to spread the light around.

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I'm not sure if this violates the ToS for the form so I'm sorry if it does but I used 2 of these as ambient fill on a night time shoot this weekend in a paper lantern and they worked great!

 

Here are the lamps I used:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RKLXJOQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If you search "Corn Light" or "Corn Light LED" on amazon and the desired color temputure you'll get a lot of low heat, very bright options.
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Here are some examples. They are literally screen shots, no grading or anything.
I used 2x of those lamps rigged with rope. The rope was tied/zip tied to trees and then staked into the ground. I also used a hand full of small battery powered leds, mostly an Ice Light 2 and an Aputure 672s.
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Edited by JeremyA
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