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I was offered a DP gig on an indie feature in Canada and we were going to get around the citizenship issue by making the DP a "voluntary" unpaid role. I'd basically do any billing of my DP day rate as an equipment vendor through that business I.D. and just donate my time on the film free of charge.

 

Not sure if this is an option on a bigger movie with EP accounting and all that for a microbudget indie it seemed to make sense. Then of course, once I learned they wanted to pay my negotiated rental billing in canadian dollars, I backed away slowly from the whole thing. haha.

 

That would actually be illegal, more than likely. It's the same thing as immigrants coming to the United States and working 'off the books' for employers. Technically, to enter Canada you'd need a Visa of some kind for anything other than a vacation. And I'm sure that Visa clearly would state that you cannot do any sort of work in Canada - for an employer or self employed - unless you're there on a visa meant for that.

 

While I don't know what Canada's take is on 'volunteers;, the fact that your charging for your equipment alone would likely mean you're now conducting business in Canada and must be obtain the proper visa's and business permits to do so.

 

* Not legal advice.

Edited by Landon D. Parks
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A company outside the U.S. can buy or rent gear from a U.S. vendor. There is nothing preventing this as far as I know.

 

If I used my business title to rent a camera to somebody in Mexico or Canada I'd report the income I earned, the same as any other. I would not require citizenship in either country to do so as far as I know.

 

As to the grey area of "volunteering" as a position on a crew. Not sure. But hey, not something I did or would want to do. I'm sure the details on this would vary as to where you are and where you're going. It'd be a different situation depending.

Edited by Michael LaVoie
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A company outside the U.S. can buy or rent gear from a U.S. vendor. There is nothing preventing this as far as I know.

 

Ah, alight then. I assumed that Canada would require a license to do business in their country, even from outside countries. I could see if you where selling something, but renting (at least to me) seems to create a long term contract between you and the Canadian person/company. But I don't know Canadian law so that could be null and void in such cases.

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I would definitely say that LA is overrated , the place to go if you want to make movies / tv series or commercials super cheap is South Africa.

 

Not only is SA a place which offers every single backdrop or scenario that you want but it also has the weather, the resources, the crew and the people.

 

I just came from Cape Town from shooting three commercials and the locations (all different) were within 1 1/2 hours drive from Cape Town.

 

Do you want sunrise on a beach?, they have it.

Do you want sunset on a beach?, they have it too.

Do you want mountains, rivers, ocean, forests, impressive roads, big buildings, desert, anything.. they have it.

 

And people there are super nice.

 

I also think that it is super busy.

 

When I went to Panavision Cape Town to talk to the guys about what I wanted.. there were 18 commercials being prepped, and 2 features!!!

 

So, get a South African visa and go there

 

Have a good day!

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Even "donating" your time is considered work in Canada. DOPs usually have little trouble getting a work permit, so long as the prod co wants to pony up $1000.00 for a work permit that used to be free.

 

I have zero issues with US crew working here, it's unfortunate the US refuses to reciprocate.

 

R,

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I would definitely say that LA is overrated , the place to go if you want to make movies / tv series or commercials super cheap is South Africa.

 

Not only is SA a place which offers every single backdrop or scenario that you want but it also has the weather, the resources, the crew and the people.

 

I just came from Cape Town from shooting three commercials and the locations (all different) were within 1 1/2 hours drive from Cape Town.

 

Do you want sunrise on a beach?, they have it.

Do you want sunset on a beach?, they have it too.

Do you want mountains, rivers, ocean, forests, impressive roads, big buildings, desert, anything.. they have it.

 

And people there are super nice.

 

I also think that it is super busy.

 

When I went to Panavision Cape Town to talk to the guys about what I wanted.. there were 18 commercials being prepped, and 2 features!!!

 

So, get a South African visa and go there

 

Have a good day!

 

I can't say enough good things about South Africa.

 

R,

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Neither can I!

 

In fact, I'm going back at the end of the year to shoot a couple more of things.

 

The only thing I would say and it is a really really good thing is that it is so busy that we had a lot of difficulties trying to find a focus puller!

 

So people, pack the bags and go to SA!

 

Have a good day!

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Yes finding good crew is a challenge because it is so busy. And yet in LA there are on any given day hundreds of qualified film crew sitting at home with nothing to do.

 

R,

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1. My experience in the film industry is really irreverent to the discussion.

No, its most relevant. You can't give advice on living in Los Angeles without any experience living here. You can go on all day about how horrible this place is and it's on the decline. Yet, most of the work is still here and so is the expertise. I've never seen someone dish out so much advice without themselves having any experience.

 

Well, I certainly wouldn't say I'm a newcomer to the film industry, or more per se the entertainment industry in general. True, most of my entertainment experience comes from Theatre, which as an artistic persons I feel qualifies me to make artistic judgement in regards to film and film production as much as anyone who worked in film for an equivalent time. From a pure production and directorial standpoint, film and theatre production are a lot more alike than many would believe, especially if you never worked in both industries - only film.

I hate to break it to you, but producing a small-town theatre production, is VERY different then making a feature film and I have a considerable amount of small-town AND big city theater experience as well. Again, you don't know until you actually do it.

 

So far the two videos I have posted include 'how to structure an LLC film when you can't pay your actors' and 'how to make a boom pole'. Being versed in business and LLC law, I feel very comfortable making assumptions about how one could legally setup a film production in a manner that is fair in such a situation, and do it legally - unlike a lot of advice I have seen from actual filmmakers who suggest others follow illegal routes, like hiring crew as independent contractors.

You do know that most people who ask others to work for free, generally don't have LLC's, insurance or the whereabouts to get those things. If they had that kind of money, they'd probably be able to pay for their crew. Believe it or not, most productions are illegal and that's never going to change. People skirt around the legal system constantly and to be 100% legitimate can be financial suicide for smaller productions. How do I know this? Because I've actually worked on big and small shows and I know how people doctor the books, fake permits, write contracts that keep them from being liable and eventually don't pay people even if they're suppose to be paid. The individual has zero repercussions because they generally can't afford lawyers. I can't tell you how many contracts I've signed and been screwed out of the money. So your "advice" as sound as it may seem in some sort of fictional world where people follow laws, is basically unrealistic nonsense in the real world. Yes, HUGE multi-million dollar films have no choice but to follow the rules and laws, but you're not discussing them in your video.

 

So as a creative, you have two choices in life; don't work or take your chances. Most of us take our chances.

 

I happen to know at least one - Robert Rodriquez - who is very successful, and who used a self-produced feature as his calling card, and he also breaks your current 'must live in LA' mentality, because he lives and produces in Austin TX.

Again, Robert Rodriguez got into the industry a long time ago. Things were very different back then. If you follow his advice today, you won't see the same reward structure since that market is flooded.

 

Also, once you're a well known filmmaker, it doesn't matter where you reside. I've stated that at least 3 times in this thread.

 

As for the OZ project, that was something I came onto later in the process - working as an editor mostly, and helping to raise finishing funds. The Director, Aaron Pacentine, shot that over a period of about 8 years on varying cameras.

Well, I kinda guessed it was shot over a long period of time, as you've touted it being ultra low budget. Still, it seems like your only experience is from that movie. If that's the case, remind me again how some community theatre experience in a small town and a doc you helped finish, give you the necessary skills to preach good filmmaking practice to others?

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In the US, how one enters, that is what type of visa, indicates whether one can 'work' or not. There are specific work visas, some are more limited than the 'permanent resident' visa, aka The Green Card.

 

If one enters the US with a visitor visa, implied(the US doesn't require an 'actual' visa for some number of countries, Canada included...) or actual, or a 'student' visa, then 'volunteer'( I don't know exactly, but I think a foreign student who obtains a non-paid internship may have to get an adjustment to their visa) as well as 'paid' labor is prohibited. For artists there is a special visa, but it is really only granted to well known proven artists...

 

I wish "NAFTA" had also included actual humans being able to easily cross borders for 'work'... sort of like the EU, at least as far as I can tell...

 

Of course the law is circumvented daily... and some joker wants to put up a wall...

Edited by John E Clark
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You do know that most people who ask others to work for free, generally don't have LLC's, insurance or the whereabouts to get those things. If they had that kind of money, they'd probably be able to pay for their crew. Believe it or not, most productions are illegal and that's never going to change. People skirt around the legal system constantly and to be 100% legitimate can be financial suicide for smaller productions. How do I know this? Because I've actually worked on big and small shows and I know how people doctor the books, fake permits, write contracts that keep them from being liable and eventually don't pay people even if they're suppose to be paid. The individual has zero repercussions because they generally can't afford lawyers. I can't tell you how many contracts I've signed and been screwed out of the money. So your "advice" as sound as it may seem in some sort of fictional world where people follow laws, is basically unrealistic nonsense in the real world. Yes, HUGE multi-million dollar films have no choice but to follow the rules and laws, but you're not discussing them in your video.

 

 

So as a creative, you have two choices in life; don't work or take your chances. Most of us take our chances.

 

This is no excuse at all. An LLC cost less than $100 is nearly every state to form. In Ohio, it's $95.00, in KY it's $40.00. If you cannot afford $100, then you have no business making anything as an adult. As for Insurance, theeventhelper.com will get you production insurance for about $300 for a 20 day shoot, covering $1,000,000 in liability and property damage.

 

So, what your saying is: As a filmmaker, I can afford the equipment to make the movie, but I can't afford $400 MAX to become legal? Yeah, I'm not buying that. Part of the reason I'm making these videos is to show people that becoming legal is not that expensive, and is not the sole realm of Spielberg.

 

And anyone producing movies illegal is setting themselves up for high risk... In the similar world of theatre, in Washington State they began cracking down on small community theaters who paid $100 stipends to cast and crew in place of wages, putting one out of business and scaring the rest. Don't think for a second that your little film production is immune, because the state does not care how small you are. All it takes is for one of your 'independent contractor' cast or crew to file a workers comp claim or try to collect unemployment, which will send up red flags all over the state building - and trigger a nice letter in the mail to you, the Producer.

 

So no, I will not take 'it's too expensive' as an excuse for not doing your production legally. If you have enough of a production that your working with cast and crew, and purchased or rented the equipment, you can afford $100 (or less most of the time) to form your LLC, which takes all of about 15 minutes in most states and does not require an attorney).... And you can afford $300 (or less for a short film) to insure your cast and crew, so that they are protected if they fall and break their back on your production.

 

Call me naive, but I'm 28 and poor, and could afford this. So there is no excuse why someone making a product they might intend to make money on doing it illegally, because they have always done it and always will. NOW, this advice might not apply to a bunch of teenagers running around making 'short films', but then again the state won't care anyone because such a thing would be hard to go after.

 

Again, Robert Rodriguez got into the industry a long time ago. Things were very different back then. If you follow his advice today, you won't see the same reward structure since that market is flooded.

 

Yes, he was a while ago. Yes, the industry has changed. However, anyone who hikes to Hollywood with some shorts under their belt is going to be in for a rude awakening when they get there. Anyone can produce a short film, now that a cinema-quality camera can be bought for less than $1,000. Good luck standing out from the thousands of others with 'short films'. Now, if you show up with a feature film under your belt - one that has at least received DVD distribution and maybe won a few awards, THAT will get you much closer to being taken seriously. Or at least get you into a meeting with an agent who might be interested in repping you to people who do hire.

 

Again, this is assuming your in it to be a director. For below the line crew, shorts will serve you little good - as it's all about the people you know who actually employ you, as well as your experience in that job role. The DP don't care if his gaffer is a great actors-directors, he wants to know if he/she can run the electrics department without throwing a breaker or injuring cast members through faulty wiring.

 

 

Well, I kinda guessed it was shot over a long period of time, as you've touted it being ultra low budget. Still, it seems like your only experience is from that movie. If that's the case, remind me again how some community theatre experience in a small town and a doc you helped finish, give you the necessary skills to preach good filmmaking practice to others?

 

Again, it wasn't community theatre. As for the budget on the doc, all totaled the tail end of post-production came to around $12,000 - including e&o, DCP, 5.1 mastering, and other finishing. So yeah it's low budget, but hardly some random kids flick shot on a handy-cam and posted with Final Cut Express.

 

--

 

But of course, this is just the advice of a dumb 28 year old kid from Cincinnati. So take it with a grain of salt.

 

BTW) How did this thread become about me? the original question was Why move to LA, yet I find myself needing to write paragraph long posts defending my opinion on the matter?

 

OH, AND my conclusion on LA does not require I live there to experience it. Countless articles show that LA is not growing it's film industry, and I'm simply rehashing that as reason to move somewhere that does have a growing industry. I do not need to be experienced in LA to read multiple news articles saying as such.

 

http://rollingout.com/2015/02/24/hollywood-slowing-dying/

 

http://la.suntimes.com/la-entertainment/7/88/210600/la-film-industry-taking-hit-2015/

Edited by Landon D. Parks
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More articles supporting my claim:

https://urbanful.org/2015/02/19/forget-hollywood-7-cities-becoming-film-hotspots/

http://deadline.com/2014/05/hollywood-runaway-production-tax-credits-georgia-louisiana-iatse-733335/

 

I have a lot more if anyone wants to see them.... Or simply google 'California film industry dying'....

Edited by Landon D. Parks
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So, what your saying is: As a filmmaker, I can afford the equipment to make the movie, but I can't afford $400 MAX to become legal? Yeah, I'm not buying that. Part of the reason I'm making these videos is to show people that becoming legal is not that expensive, and is not the sole realm of Spielberg.

It's not that simple though, maybe it is where you live, but it's never been where I lived.

 

- First off, it takes upwards of a month to get LLC paperwork back and approved.

 

- Second, there is a tax burden of $800 here in CA every year you keep it running.

 

- Third, you do need an lawyer to write every contract you make. Otherwise, you have zero recourse if something should go wrong. You need that stamp of approval and that's very expensive.

 

- Fourth, even if you have all your ducks in a row, all the contracts are perfect and someone sues, nothing says they can't take your house away. If one of your crew members makes one small mistake, it's on you as the owner of the company. You will get sued and you will have to probably hire a lawyer and defend yourself. Again, with what money will you do that?

 

- Fifth, as an LLC you need to have contracts for every single person and location you use. This means, if you use a park in the middle of nowhere, you need to get approval from the owners if you can shoot there. If you go, setup shop an leave in an hour, you still need to get approval in writing. Guerrilla filmmaking with LLC's is almost instant lawsuit. Maybe not a big deal in a small town (one of the only benefits), but it's still something to think about.

 

Landon, if you aren't making any money with your products and you don't have money to pay your crew, there is little to no reason to do all this business stuff. Hand shake deals, no contracts and no paperwork equate to little to no liability. If someone goes to sue, still need a lawyer. But here is the difference, if one of your "crew" members does something crazy, it doesn't fall back on you because it's all deniable. There is no physical evidence so in the court of law, who would convict?

 

If you're paying your crew, if you have actual cast, if you have rented equipment, if you have real locations that need permits, having an LLC and insurance are kind of necessary. However, with zero budget, free-bee projects, it's all a waste of time and effort for nothing but headaches.

 

Call me naive, but I'm 28 and poor, and could afford this. So there is no excuse why someone making a product they might intend to make money on doing it illegally, because they have always done it and always will. NOW, this advice might not apply to a bunch of teenagers running around making 'short films', but then again the state won't care anyone because such a thing would be hard to go after.

Yes, I do call you naive! You haven't made a big enough production to know any of this stuff. You also haven't been sued yet and know what it's like to loose everything even when you have an LLC. I know these things because I've been around and seen it happen in front of my face. You think all this legal poop actually protects you somehow, but it really doesn't.

 

Again, it wasn't community theatre. As for the budget on the doc, all totaled the tail end of post-production came to around $12,000 - including e&o, DCP, 5.1 mastering, and other finishing. So yeah it's low budget, but hardly some random kids flick shot on a handy-cam and posted with Final Cut Express.

It sure looked like a community theatre from your demo video. Bunch of kids on super small stage with very few set pieces, poor costumes and barely audible dialog. Not putting it down, theatre is great fun and an awesome experience. But be honest with yourself, it's just a small town theater.

 

Also, the documentary on the Wizard of Oz does look like something shot on a handycam. I'm sorry to break it to you, but from the outside world, that's what it looks like. I've made plenty of productions like that when I was in middle and high school, so did a great deal of filmmakers. But we didn't put any money into them because what's the point? The fun of it is making it yourself, even if I had the money, I wouldn't have paid to polish the turds I made back then. :shrug:

 

Countless articles show that LA is not growing it's film industry, and I'm simply rehashing that as reason to move somewhere that does have a growing industry. I do not need to be experienced in LA to read multiple news articles saying as such.

Articles? You're basing your knowledge on articles? :rolleyes:

 

Unfortunately, the reason why filmmaking is "growing" in other parts of this country is due to tax incentives. The moment those states remove them because they realize it's stupid, all of that work will dry up almost instantly. So planning your life around living in one of those "growing" industries, is not a smart idea. In fact, there have been numerous threads on here from cinematographers, gaffers and camera operators/assistants who moved to those "budding" locations, to find out the work dried up in a few years and now there is no more work.

 

The great thing about Los Angeles is; there will always be work.

 

Now as I've said numerous times in this thread, I'm not an advocate of simply moving straight out of college or something. If you come here without any experience, you will move home crying like over 250,000 people do each year. If you come here with your ducks in a row, if you already have excellent connections here and have work lined up right away, it's worth making the transition and seeing if it works for you. For some, it won't ever work, the film industry is dog eat dog in these parts of the world. If you can't bite back or show your immense talent, you'll probably go home with your tail between your legs.

 

This is my 14th year living here, so I have met quite a few filmmakers and been involved in many productions. I've come to like this place because I've learned the ropes through much pain and anguish, but that's life. Either you get a measly job doing something you hate, or you roll the dice and make something for yourself. People can complain about this place all they want and it's not for everyone. I for one like riding my bicycle year round any day I want. I love riding dirt bikes and racing every weekend I can. I also teach scuba diving, so being right on the ocean rocks. We have awesome food, even better entertainment and there are so many things to do, it's crazy. If you can't find a job here making three times what you make, it's because you're too lazy or you have zero skills. I'm offered jobs ALL THE TIME by random people who find me on Linked In, but I turn them down because I like being freelance and I have plenty of work to do.

 

Which reminds me... back to work! :)

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This is no excuse at all. An LLC cost less than $100 is nearly every state to form. In Ohio, it's $95.00, in KY it's $40.00. If you cannot afford $100, then you have no business making anything as an adult. As for Insurance, theeventhelper.com will get you production insurance for about $300 for a 20 day shoot, covering $1,000,000 in liability and property damage.

 

 

 

A quick check at the site referenced, theeventhelper.com, indicates that for a 2 day shoot, 5 people (ie the weekend...) in California, it would be $196... for a 10 day shoot it would be $225.

 

So, one would probably plan for 2 weekends, if one was making a 'short'...

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I think what has been lost is twofold:

 

1) there is no singular way. There are many ways

2) it's not about getting to the meeting-- about already having the contacts, it's about MEETING; specifically people. And, that, generally, happens where production is formulated-- e.g. LA or NY for the most part and not necessarily where it's filmed (ABQ comes to mind).

 

Little anecdotes from my own time in LA, and granted, I am no social butterfly and generally avoid meeting people at all costs, I know, it makes little sense.

 

I met the head of FilmLA on the Gold Line Metro to Pasadena after two drunk girls spilled their whole bottle of tequilia on me. He offered me some napkins, and asked me a bit about myself. I haven't had too much issue getting permits expedited when needed, since (though i'm no producer and it's not a card I pull often because, I'm not paid to do their work.)

Just last week at a Dr Who Fandom store I went to with a friend which had a craft fair (and afforded my a wonderful Star Trek TNG Pot Holder), I met two of the safety pass folks over at contract services.

 

I can't count how many producers, directors, writers i've met at coffee shops here in LA, just kinda joining into conversation (normally asking me what i'm reading and being surprised when it's an actual book, non-fiction, and musty). And while the vast majority of those meetings haven't yet turned into anything more than friendly conversation, the few which did opened me up to new projects and an ever growing network of people which helps to generate work.

 

Same for crew. I met an amazing Key Grip at a bar when he asked to borrow my lighter. I learn a good deal from him, and we have a good time sitting, talking shop, and talking about other more philosophical things. He himself wants to direct one of these days, something, and I told him, I hope you find the best DoP you can (in truth I don't want the hire out of some form of "owing me"). Same for some of the PAs or Students I run into on occasion who; when I am reading a script in a coffee shop, might ask me what I do, and then a billion questions about, whatever. These things keep me thinking, learning, having to get back to them on occasion, and who knows, maybe it'll turn into a gig, probably not, but maybe.

 

And that's the thing. This is lost in smaller cities and markets. I can't think of anytime or really anywhere outside of LA that I've lived (which by the way spans quite a few country codes as well as area and zips), where this type of thing happens. Does this mean you can't make your film elsewhere (or perhaps better put that it's substantially cheaper to film outside of LA especially for shorts); of course not!

But, it does go to show that there is much more to having a CAREER in film than the specific project at hand you're working on. It's all about who you meet-- a Netflix Distributor who can drink me under the table at a roof-top bar in Venice whom i started a conversation with solely because she liked my hat, an artist working on some mural program who happens to throw a house party you go to and boom, there's your next director. Or the PD you fall madly in love with who, because she knows it and probably doesn't feel the same, always covers your ass with some design things when you work the smaller shows to make your work look better.

 

That is why you come to LA. It's not the ease of getting kit, it's not because it's affordable to shoot here (in truth Bakersfield is just 2 hours away and SO MUCH CHEAPER). You come because film is all about being presented an opportunity and being able to capitalize on it. You can make a film anywhere, with anything, you have an HD camera in your pocket. What you can't do in Philadelphia, Akron, Butte, Santa Fe, Seattle, is run the risk of walking out of your apartment every day and running into someone who introduces you to the people who've already grasped the brass ring.

 

This also doesn't even get into how you get to a meeting in 5 hours for a last minute show call, or a I need you right now in person, when you need to book a ticket.

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If you're paying your crew, if you have actual cast, if you have rented equipment, if you have real locations that need permits, having an LLC and insurance are kind of necessary. However, with zero budget, free-bee projects, it's all a waste of time and effort for nothing but headaches.

 

 

Exactly, which is why I made the video. I'm not talking to the kids out making short films with their friends, I'm talking to the filmmakers who, like the question said in the video, want to make a movie with income potential while getting everything legal.

 

If you think for a second that doing everything guerrilla is protecting you, I can say that is false. I know this because, as I have said, business law was my minor. If you shake hands with Joe and tell him you'll pay him 10% of the profit the film makes, what are you going to do when Joe relaizes your movie sold for $5 million and now wants his percentage a little higher? Say maybe 20%? If you don't have 10% in writing, all he has to do in convince the judge you originally said 20%, and guess what - no more protection.

 

I'm not going to continue to reply to these comments because I can't help but feel it's baiting, and it's taking the focus away from the thread - which has nothing to do with LLC's or even me.

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A quick check at the site referenced, theeventhelper.com, indicates that for a 2 day shoot, 5 people (ie the weekend...) in California, it would be $196... for a 10 day shoot it would be $225.

 

So, one would probably plan for 2 weekends, if one was making a 'short'...

 

Yes, for a short film the cost runs about the same as a feature. However, a calculation on that site also shows that a film produced in CA with a 20 day schedule with 10 people on set each day would cost $229.00 in Insurance. Hardly close to expensive, at least for the level of protection it offers. If you're not going to get an LLC, I'd strongly at least suggest insurance - so that when you get sued you don't loose your house...

 

Personally, I'm glad I have had insurance several times... One time I rented a venue for a fundraiser and they tried to claim we scratched their wood floor - wanted to charge us $10,000 to refinish it. Luckily, we had the insurance which covered it - and likely saved me from a personal $10,000 lawsuit that I would not have won. Because I did the event on my own with no LLC for liability protection, I would have been personally on the line for all damages since I signed the contract in my name.

Edited by Landon D. Parks
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Little anecdotes from my own time in LA, and granted, I am no social butterfly and generally avoid meeting people at all costs, I know, it makes little sense.

:)

 

Yea, but you still do it and in my opinion, you've been pretty successful all things considered.

 

Thanks for your on-point rebuttal, it's nice to know other people understand the power of living here as a filmmaker.

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If you think for a second that doing everything guerrilla is protecting you, I can say that is false. I know this because, as I have said, business law was my minor. If you shake hands with Joe and tell him you'll pay him 10% of the profit the film makes, what are you going to do when Joe relaizes your movie sold for $5 million and now wants his percentage a little higher? Say maybe 20%? If you don't have 10% in writing, all he has to do in convince the judge you originally said 20%, and guess what - no more protection.

Right, but that makes the assumption anyone in their right mind would work for a free and "potentially" some back end money. Sorry man, that's not reality, nobody who knows anything about this industry would work for a promise, even if it's in a contract. Anyone with a head on their shoulder can make $125/day as a PA. Extras get paid $100/day on most big shows and you don't need to know anything to do that job. So first off, anyone "working" for the rate of "zero", is stupid because they could be making actual money. Now lets say you are getting a low rate, $100/day + back end money. Well, anyone signing up for that, isn't "expecting" any of that back end to come and if you are, you're just naive and deserve to be taken for a ride.

 

So lets use your example... MR filmmaker makes 5 million off the movie you never got paid for, or expect payment down the road. He isn't going to pay you, why would he? You go to him and threaten a lawsuit, but how are you going to do that? How are you going to prove anything with the judge. You think you can walk in to arbitration and get money? Sorry dude, no way, it's not happening. The filmmaker can claim all the earnings went to payback investors and they will doctor the books to make it seem that way.

 

I've been involved in TWO class-action lawsuits against productions who didn't pay the last two weeks on a show. Wanna know what happens? Nothing... absolutely nothing. Why? Because there is no money. The producers are broke, the film ran out of money and there is nothing anyone can get. How does a contract help you when there is no money?

 

How about THIS example. I worked as the lead engineer for the 5th largest entertainment marketing company in the US, which was called The Cimarron Group. We had a 4 story high-rise down town Hollywood all to ourselves. Company had been in business for around 32 years I believe. Anyway, boss embezzles money to pay for a "division" of the company in China, which was a shadow company, it never materialized. Several million dollars disappeared and he couldn't pay people. We had a big meeting, he promised we'd get paid, he wrote a contract for everyone to sign saying he would pay. Two more weeks went by, no money. Then, they simply closed the doors, didn't pay us a thing. He lost everything, house, car, boat, wife, all gone. All that money went to the bankruptcy and NONE of it went to the staff of 220 employees. We tried to file a class action lawsuit, but nobody has the money and he was already in trouble with the fed's for his embezzlement.

 

Moral of the stories; you can be protected all you want, but when the music stops, if you don't have a chair, you will be out of the game. You can teach people on youtube all you want, but when push comes to shove, doing the "right thing" isn't what the vast majority of people are interested in. They are interested in making their product as quickly, cheaply and good as they can. You as the "worker" have little to no rights, contract or not, it's still down to the people paying you.

 

I'm not going to continue to reply to these comments because I can't help but feel it's baiting, and it's taking the focus away from the thread - which has nothing to do with LLC's or even me.

Look, As a teacher, I'm very much up front with the realities of the entertainment industry.I'm so happy you're excited about being involved in the film industry. You have a great deal of enthusiasm and I understand the desire to give back knowledge. At the same time, I think you have a lot to learn about the industry before you can be credible in your comments. Having never worked on a real film set before or lived in an entertainment based city like Los Angeles or New York City, it's very hard to understand what it's like. My comments aren't made to turn you off, they are hopefully meant to inform you; things are very different away from college, books and a small town life. As a teacher, I want to educate and help correct your comments towards the reality of things. So discussing it here on this thread is perfectly fine. I like a good discussion and I'm sorry if it feels like your baiting me, you absolutely aren't.

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Right, but that makes the assumption anyone in their right mind would work for a free and "potentially" some back end money. Sorry man, that's not reality, nobody who knows anything about this industry would work for a promise, even if it's in a contract. Anyone with a head on their shoulder can make $125/day as a PA. Extras get paid $100/day on most big shows and you don't need to know anything to do that job. So first off, anyone "working" for the rate of "zero", is stupid because they could be making actual money. Now lets say you are getting a low rate, $100/day + back end money. Well, anyone signing up for that, isn't "expecting" any of that back end to come and if you are, you're just naive and deserve to be taken for a ride.

 

So lets use your example... MR filmmaker makes 5 million off the movie you never got paid for, or expect payment down the road. He isn't going to pay you, why would he? You go to him and threaten a lawsuit, but how are you going to do that? How are you going to prove anything with the judge. You think you can walk in to arbitration and get money? Sorry dude, no way, it's not happening. The filmmaker can claim all the earnings went to payback investors and they will doctor the books to make it seem that way.

 

I've been involved in TWO class-action lawsuits against productions who didn't pay the last two weeks on a show. Wanna know what happens? Nothing... absolutely nothing. Why? Because there is no money. The producers are broke, the film ran out of money and there is nothing anyone can get. How does a contract help you when there is no money?

 

How about THIS example. I worked as the lead engineer for the 5th largest entertainment marketing company in the US, which was called The Cimarron Group. We had a 4 story high-rise down town Hollywood all to ourselves. Company had been in business for around 32 years I believe. Anyway, boss embezzles money to pay for a "division" of the company in China, which was a shadow company, it never materialized. Several million dollars disappeared and he couldn't pay people. We had a big meeting, he promised we'd get paid, he wrote a contract for everyone to sign saying he would pay. Two more weeks went by, no money. Then, they simply closed the doors, didn't pay us a thing. He lost everything, house, car, boat, wife, all gone. All that money went to the bankruptcy and NONE of it went to the staff of 220 employees. We tried to file a class action lawsuit, but nobody has the money and he was already in trouble with the fed's for his embezzlement.

 

Moral of the stories; you can be protected all you want, but when the music stops, if you don't have a chair, you will be out of the game. You can teach people on youtube all you want, but when push comes to shove, doing the "right thing" isn't what the vast majority of people are interested in. They are interested in making their product as quickly, cheaply and good as they can. You as the "worker" have little to no rights, contract or not, it's still down to the people paying you.

 

Well, I'm mainly talking about filmmakers protecting themselves from the people working for them, not the other way around - though a contract certainly will provide some protection to the worker, even if it doesn't amount to much in the end, it's better than nothing. And considering that contract should take all of about 15 minutes to fill out for each person (once you get a template made), there is little reason not to.

 

I still stand by this statement: If your making a movie of any sort in which you are working with others, at the VERY LEAST obtain liability and property damage insurance. This is really important if you don't plan to incorporate or form an LLC. If Joe burns his hand on a light bulb and wants to claim long term injury, guess who is paying his medical bills if you don't have insurance? Exactly - you. Can't afford it? They'll seize your home and property to help you along. The law does not care how small you are, or what sort of verbal agreement you had. Unless you're a nonprofit, anyone working for you is an employee in the eyes of the law - unless they can fit into the small IC or partner classification, neither of which btw will protect you from that lawsuit.

 

If you think this cannot happen, guess again. We were sued twice during my 3 year terms as Executive Director, once by someone who claimed he twisted his ankle climbing a ladder to hang a light; the other claimed he wasn't paid his 'guaranteed' pay. In the first case our insurance paid for it - otherwise we would have closed down... The second time the contract we had was a volunteer agreement (we were a nonprofit), which resulted in us winning the arbitration.

 

In these cases, insurance and contract saved our butts twice - and probably more times as well, if people didn't know they had a contract to keep them from bringing false suits.

 

And your statement that no one works for free on a set (who has any brains anyway), and if they do they know what 'deferred pay' or 'no pay' means, your wrong again. Often times, those who work for free are often working on films outside of the major film markets, and might be film students not yet ready to make a thousands dollar move to CA with no resume. Often times, these people are young and naive, and maybe not really understanding that 'deferred pay' actually means no pay, or they might not understand that you didn't hire them as your employee. And if they hurt themselves on your production, and they realize you have no money and no insurance - they are probably going to file a workers comp claim with the state, who will send you, the employer, a nice little letter asking you to explain why you hired an employee with no workers comp insurance... When you tell them, 'He wasn't my employee, we were just a couple of buds making a movie', they will deploy the partnership and IC test, finding out he doesn't qualify as either. Guess who is now on the line for back pay, taxes, and penalties? YOU. Of course forming a corporation or LLC would have precluded you from being responsible for such debts, but since the few hundred was too expensive, there goes your home and car.

 

Honestly, I don't expect to change your mind. You're set in one particular way that you think is the only right way to go about it. Your opinion is that no one with a brain works for free, and those with enough of a brain to work for free knows what free means --- which is not always the case. You seem to be of the opinion that contracts and business licenses are a waste of time, given they hardly ever work --- yet every company and corporation formed proves that theory as false (they are formed for a reason, after all). Finally, you seem to be of the opinion that my videos and advice are to apply to those making student films, short films, or mega budget features - none of which is the case. My advice applies to those who are making a product that they hope to find distribution for (rather they do or not), and projects in which the danger of liability is much greater.

 

you seem to be stuck on the LA mindset... Everyone in LA know's what going on... Everyone in LA won't work for free.... LA, LA, LA. Well, my advice is not directly aimed at only LA. It's aimed at all markets from Athens Ohio to Forks, Washington. My advice given in that video was actually from a question from a guy in Indiana who wanted to make a movie with college students who wanted an agreement to be paid if the movie made money. Maybe they are all stupid for doing it, I don't know - but I gave him the best advice I have. Telling him to just make false promises to them was not in my mind, and since Indiana requires less than $100 to form an LLC and requires no ongoing LLC fees beyond a $25 bi-annual fee - I felt that was the best advice for him.

 

No one doubts that big film shoots know to form an LLC, and I'm not suggesting a group of kids getting together to make a little movie worry about forming an LLC. My advice applies squarely to those in the middle of that spectrum. However, my insurance advice applies to ALL productions, no matter the scale, except for teenager. If you're not incorporating or forming an LLC, and you have any assets to lose, you are taking a risk by not paying a couple hundred for insurance.

 

That is all I have to say on that matter. Given my experience in business management (pretty extensive) and my study in business law, I am more than qualified to make such assumptions. That does not mean you have to agree with them of course.You seem to be viewing the film industry in a vacuum separate from all other industries, one where breaking the rules is sorta cool and expect. I can tell you, the State Dept. of Labor could care less.

Edited by Landon D. Parks
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