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Choosing a Camera


Tony Dupre

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Yep SR's are real tanks, totally robust. My only beef with the camera is how the pull down does all the work and how the gate can wear very easily. Otherwise, they're a great deal if you don't need a S16 camera. There were many converted, but then you've gotta find Arri B mount S16 glass, which can be challenging and expensive.Man, I've seen SR's for for a grand on ebay and SR2's for not much more. S16 cameras generally start around 1500, depending on the condition.I've personally serviced SR, Aaton's and Bolex's. Arri's design is so nice and compact. With that being said, I personally prefer Aaton's design. It's very clever and it results in a much quieter camera that has better registration, which is pretty incredible to think of because nobody would consider the SR having a problem with registration!

Not sure what you're talking about regarding the SR pull down doing all the work, all SR mags have a sprocket-driven fixed loop.

 

The gate issue was simply wear to the fixed edge guides after many hundreds of thousands of feet, and as soon as a registration test revealed some lateral unsteadiness the gate (or more usually the worn edge guide) would be replaced, at least at the rental houses I worked for. Not a particularly expensive repair. SR3s had a different gate design that resolved the issue, but it's not something I'd worry too much about as a prospective buyer. A registration test will show up any gate or movement issues.

 

Aaton's design was clever, and they are wonderful for handheld work, but they're not as robust as Arris and certainly not as widely serviced. The factory spec noise levels of comparable Aatons and Arris (SR2s and LTRS, SR3s and XTRs) are roughly the same, but many SR2s were used as industry workhorses and became noisier after a while if not properly serviced. The high speed Arri models were always rated a bit louder.

 

I don't think there's any truth to the claim that Aatons are inherently steadier.

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I have an sr2 and would recommend it, at 2k it's a good price. It's 12v so a bescor battery belt is under $100 and with the pl mount there is modern sharp lenses that you could rent or borrow. I have a B mount angenieux 15-150 converted to pl that held it's own in a lens test I did up against a set of Cooke mini s4 lenses at f4.

 

The Aatton is nice but your still going to need a lens and the Aaton mount is less common than PL. It depends on your budget but you can't go wrong with an SR2. NFL films shot over a million miles of film on they're SRs!!!

 

I saw a set of visual products ultra T primes in PL mount sell for $800 on ebay last week thats just crazy!

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The Aatton is nice but your still going to need a lens and the Aaton mount is less common than PL. It depends on your budget but you can't go wrong with an SR2. NFL films shot over a million miles of film on they're SRs!!!

 

 

I thought plenty of early Aatons were converted to PL. Some LTR/LTR54s on eBay were PL mount, or did I misread that.

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I assume you're talking about having bad luck buying ex-rental cameras rather than renting them, because if you've found using rental cameras worse than eBay you're seriously using the wrong rental houses!

Since we're discussing a very particular narrow gauge format, my comments were in regards to how that format is dealt with today. The very few houses which still rent professional S16 sound cameras, don't rent them much and don't do much service either. There are a few houses here in Hollywood, which still maintain cameras internally, but most houses can't afford to have an in-house tech who knows S16. Few months ago, Arri Hollywood stopped supporting older 16mm film cameras. So now you can't even get support if you needed it.

 

A privately owned camera may have seen less action but may also have had far less regular maintenance. Each scenario has its disadvantages.

It's true, that's why you ask. Either situation is sketchy and I only commented on it due to personal experiences and friends who have complained as well.

 

If an owner tells you they serviced or lubricated the camera themselves, don't buy it!

If film cameras are to stay alive, users will have to learn how to maintain themselves because in some cases, the cost to service is more then the cameras value.

 

Not sure what you're talking about regarding the SR pull down doing all the work, all SR mags have a sprocket-driven fixed loop.

It's true, but evidently they had problems with that design and that's why they switched to the Aaton design with the 416. One of my ex-arri tech friends said it was due to the lack of driving sprockets. Clearly the SR mag's have a sprocket in them, or the camera wouldn't work. Maybe it has more to do with drag on the gate compared to the smaller/shorter gate of the Aaton? I haven't compared the two personally, I was just reciting what I learned over the years.

 

The gate issue was simply wear to the fixed edge guides after many hundreds of thousands of feet, and as soon as a registration test revealed some lateral unsteadiness the gate (or more usually the worn edge guide) would be replaced, at least at the rental houses I worked for.

Unfortunately, those parts are hard to get without spending a lot of money with a specialist. Messing with the gate is kind of a big no-no if you plan on camera alignment being good when your done.

 

SR3s had a different gate design that resolved the issue, but it's not something I'd worry too much about as a prospective buyer. A registration test will show up any gate or movement issues.

Sure, but generally people who can barely afford to make a film, aren't doing registration tests prior to renting or buying a camera. In the case of these narrow gauge formats, you kinda get a camera and start shooting. My tips are more so the OP doesn't go out and buy an ex-rental camera and/or trust that someone who's renting a S16 camera, isn't just handing over an old camera that doesn't work right. If this were a big feature film, they'd be using a top rental house with brand new cameras. Unfortunately, that's a bit harder with no money.

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Unfortunately, those parts are hard to get without spending a lot of money with a specialist. Messing with the gate is kind of a big no-no if you plan on camera alignment being good when your done.

 

 

I've not got any experience with the Aaton or Arri SR cameras we are talking about here but on almost every film camera I have ever owned the gate was just a metal plate held in place with screws. You could completely replace it and have no affect on camera alignment! Sounds like a step backwards if this is no longer the case.

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I've not got any experience with the Aaton or Arri SR cameras we are talking about here but on almost every film camera I have ever owned the gate was just a metal plate held in place with screws. You could completely replace it and have no affect on camera alignment! Sounds like a step backwards if this is no longer the case.

If you replace the entire gate with one that's been aligned, that's no big deal. I was referring to "messing" with the gate, which is removing the guides and installing different once OR worse, changing their location to compensate for the wear.

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What do you guys think of the Krasnogorsk-3 converted to Super 16?

They are a bit of a pain to use.Very loud and Very limiting. If you are intent on purchasing a S16 camera for your shoot and for your production company, I would only look at either Aatons or Arri SRs. If you only need something small for MOS work, I would look at a Bolex. They are better made and more versatile.

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it should be ok if the conversion is done correctly and it does not cost much. you should choose the m42 version and make sure the loop size is absolutely correct when you shoot, otherwise it may scratch the film quite easily. even if you decide to buy the Arri or Aaton later you can still use the k3 for handheld MOS shots, it is great for that purpose :)

don't invest too much money to it though, couple of hundred bucks max including lenses

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bolex has dimmer viewfinder image but otherwise it is better than k3. it is also much more difficult to convert to s16.

 

(if the Kinor 16 would not had such badly designed motor I could recommend one if you could get it cheaply with a 10-100 lens. but the motors are quite unreliable (most of the eBay stuff seems to not work correctly, I have purchased couple of them and none was ok) . unless the motor is updated to chrystal sync by for example Olex it may be a bad idea to buy one. )

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The reason I ask is because funding doesn't seem to be going so well and I really don't think I'm going to come even close to my goal so I may have to get something very cheap.

As I said earlier, they're not very good cameras. I wouldn't buy a few hundred dollar camera for a serious 16mm project. It doesn't seem logical when you can borrow cameras for so cheap these days. If you were OK with shooting straight 16, I'd be MORE then happy to loan you my Bolex EBM for peanuts. It works great, new battery and would fit your needs perfectly.

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my Bolex H16RX is the most reliable camera I've ever seen, I have used it for 12 years now and it has missed a frame only once (that was operator error and not camera's fault :P )

if you can manage with the straight viewfinder the EBM would be excellent for the project I think :)

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The reason I ask is because funding doesn't seem to be going so well and I really don't think I'm going to come even close to my goal so I may have to get something very cheap.

Did you talk to Boston Camera? They do have Arri SR3s. Ten years ago they cut me a huge deal for a short I made. You might be able to afford a very modest rental package.

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If you need a cheap MOS camera, then a Canon Scoopic 16M or MS is a good choice. Relatively modern, decent fixed lens, easy loading of 100' daylight spools, batteries are fairly easy to recell, 16-64fps, single frame mode, built-in meter if needed. If you can deal with a 20-30sec shot limit, then a Bolex RX5 would also be a good option, though it's quite a bit more expensive.

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I've personally serviced SR, Aaton's and Bolex's. Arri's design is so nice and compact. With that being said, I personally prefer Aaton's design. It's very clever and it results in a much quieter camera that has better registration, which is pretty incredible to think of because nobody would consider the SR having a problem with registration!

No doubt on the ergonomics Aaton is superior...but I've had three SR's that were crazy quiet. With an SR3 I had to practically put my ear on the magazine to see if it was running.

 

I had been using a Canon Scoopic for a few years before moving to an SR and the registration difference was certainly noticeable. The Scoopics are GREAT for what they are, I just wouldn't want to shoot landscapes/skies or anything where registration is crucial. They were built for capturing football games and news b-roll, not for a feature...but I can great images out of them for sure!

 

Hey...there's one in my Avatar!

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No doubt on the ergonomics Aaton is superior...but I've had three SR's that were crazy quiet. With an SR3 I had to practically put my ear on the magazine to see if it was running.

I was more referring to the older cameras that the OP was talking about. SR3's are probably out of his price range if he was talking about SR1's and II's. But I agree, the SR3 is a much quieter camera. I remember first using one and feeling the same way. I was shocked because we had used SRI's on a previous shoot for the same film and they were so loud I had to wear a furniture pad the whole day covering me and the camera. EEK!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey guys thanks for all the replies. I am trying to pick between three cameras:

 

Arriflex 16SR Regular 16mm in Arri B mount with 3 mags, upgraded electronics and gate, heated eyepiece, extended viewfinder, eyepiece leveler, leather barney, video tap, Sony 9" monitor, Arri baseplate, 6 on board batteries, battery charger, pistol grip, XLR cables, crystal sync up to 75FPS. No lens. $700. Will cost about $1200 to upgrade to Ultra 16

 

CP-16R Regular 16mm in CP mount with Arri B/S adapter, Angenieux 10-150mm zoom, viewfinder (prisms need re-silvering), XLR, AC adapter, 3 mags all for $1100. Upgrade to U16 is around $800.

 

Krasnogorsk-3 in crystal sync for $1000.

 

(Also maybe a Scoopic for $400 and then upgrade to U16 for $650)

 

What do you think guys?

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I’d skip the CP-16. They’re cumbersome and decreasingly serviceable.

 

The K3 isn’t worth considering at that price range, even with the sync (it’s also not a silent camera).

 

I’d do that SR2. It’s a really robust camera, and is everything you need at your budget. The ability to do PL is also a huge plus.

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The Arri SR looks like a good price and a good kit. I would skip the Ultra16 upgrade and put scotch tape on the monitor so you can see where to crop to for 16:9 instead. That way you can save some money for a nicer lens which might be more important than ultra16.

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Krasnogorsk-3 in crystal sync for $1000.

BONK!!!! If you can get an SR for $700, forget this. Not even remotely in the same ball park. I had a K3 as one of my first 16mm cameras, took some beautiful pictures with it but it's a wind-up toy compared to an SR.

 

I'd go Scoopic over an K3 too so you won't be stuck winding it all day long. Although fixed, the Scoopic MS lens is quite good.

 

Keep in mind that an SR2 was what...$30,000 new? A K3 wasn't over $1000 even when it was new. There's simply different engineering and tolerances built into professional cameras and what an amazing buy they are now!

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