Choosing a Camera

[Dirk DeJonghe]

It looks like an Aaton XTR without the display on the motor side. I also never saw that kind of video assist. The important facts; it has the magnetic drive of an XTR. Aaton or PL mount is easy to change. I don't have my old Aaton pricelists anymore but I seem to remember they made a simplified version of the XTR without timecode or electronics, I could be wrong, it is about 20 odd years ago.

[Aapo Lettinen]

I recommended Bolex or similar low cost camera and maybe even regular 16 because it is much much cheaper way, not just because the camera body is a lot cheaper but the lenses are also. you will get considerably more grain however, with 16:9 crop it is close to doubling the graininess maybe depending on how you shoot, scan and post the material.

Super16 PL lenses are quite expensive compared to cameras nowadays and the arri bayonet lenses don't all cover super16, if they do they are more expensive. You can use bayonet lenses in PL camera with adapter so I would stay away from bayonet Arri SR unless it's dirt cheap and N16 is enough for you.

 

I myself use usually N16 cameras with shooting mainly 50D and F64D and switching to 35mm (konvas, cameflex) if I need more speed or less grain. for me it is cheaper than getting a S16 camera with a usable set of S16 capable lenses, especially wide angles are difficult and expensive. I mostly shoot MOS with them, with sound scenes the S16 would be much better choice.

 

if buying the arri you can maybe find used Optars for reasonable price. I saw some of them on ebay for less than 1k per lens, you could cover the wide angles with them and use other lenses for longer focal lengths

[Freya Black]

 

Super16 PL lenses are quite expensive compared to cameras nowadays and the arri bayonet lenses don't all cover super16, if they do they are more expensive. You can use bayonet lenses in PL camera with adapter so I would stay away from bayonet Arri SR unless it's dirt cheap and N16 is enough for you.

 

You mean zooms? With primes, most 16mm lenses are Super16 compatible from 25mm upwards. It tends to be the wides that struggle to cover Super 16.

 

Zeiss SuperSpeeds:

 

The 16mm set comprised of four Distagons: 9.5, 12, 16 and 25mm, f1.2, all with a photometric aperture of T1.3. These were the first 16mm prime lenses designed to cover Super 16mm format. The 9.5mm focal length covers the full S16 aperture, but is somewhat compromised in sharpness and illumination past the corners of N16. For this reason ARRI did not include the 9.5mm on their list of S16 compatible lenses. All the S16mm Mk.1 lenses were fitted with 6-blade hexagonal iris.

 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Freya Black

[Tony Dupre]

Thanks everyone for the replies! If you'd like to help or share the campaign it's right here

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Please share and donate if you can! Thanks!

[Freya Black]

Okay, I didn't realise it was silent.

As Aapo suggest, standard 16mm cameras are way cheaper, even the high end ones.

I bought an eclair ACL complete with Angeneiux Zoom and a couple of 400ft mags for £250!

 

You know you could even consider Super8 if you aren't making prints.

Kodak Tri-X is available quite cheaply in the states and the cameras are cheap as chips.

 

Not sure if you are going for a more vintage look or if you have in mind more visual story telling than trying to connect with the history of silent film but if you are trying for a more vintage look that can also affect the choice for lenses.

[Pavan Deep]

If the film is silent any MOS camera would do, if Super 16 isn’t a major need then any working standard 16mm camera would do. This opens up more camera possibilities, such as simple clockwork 16mm cameras, a Bolex, a Beaulieu R6 or a Cannon Scoopic. Éclair ACL’s are very good ‘professional’ level cameras and in standard 16 they are cheaper, standard 16 lenses are also cheaper than Super 16 lenses.

 

It always makes me wonder when budgets are shown the cost for using either film or digital is higher than other things. In my experience actors and crew personal are much costlier than the acquisition costs, unless everyone’s working for free, followed by the food and travel. Then there are costs such as insurances, logistics and locations these can be expensive too.

 

Pav

[Aapo Lettinen]

it is also possible to purchase a lower cost standard 16 camera but rent a super16 set for couple of days if needed. it is quite practical if you have for example lots of daylight scenes you are intending to shoot on 50D anyway but two or three low light scenes which need 500T. mixing different formats in scanning is not a big deal as long as you have shot framing charts and the same camera format rolls are after each other in the telecine roll

[Gregg MacPherson]

The price of a camera is not meaningful unless one knows its condition, and service history. Without knowing that it's a gamble. If you are clever and patient then there are bargains, but you need to know how to see them.

 

Get a sense of what the maintenance costs are for cameras. Maybe you are close to camera tech Bernie O'Doherty and also Paul Scaglione (Visual Products).

 

Re the pro, cons, maintenance cost of the various 16mm cameras, there is quite a lot of info on this forum. Search that. It's quite detailed. Especially, I remember some camera techs talking about the many Aaton models. It's not as simple as it seems from what has been said here.

 

Historically, a first 16mm camera to explore, on a personal level, the image, would be something like a Bolex or ST or.... But many of these cameras are now so long since their last service that running them is hurting them.

 

I don't know about crowd funding to purchase your camera and equipment. Is that what you are doing?

[Aapo Lettinen]

some cameras, for example Krasnogorsks, can be quite easily serviced at home (to a point) and you don't necessarily need Camera Technician for that.

you have to shoot tests though and it is not possible to get equipment to 100% condition by yourself without special tools and experience.

 

about 80-90% condition is good enough for me most of the time so I do most of the repairs and service by myself (krasnogorsk, kinor16, Konvas, Cameflex) to save lots of time and also money.

for me it is more important to be able to resolve problems very quickly so that I can continue shooting without needing to send the camera out for service which could take even months and ruin the entire production.

 

ebay cameras are usually not in usable condition out of the box, even if claimed to be unused or 'serviced' so if it's not a Krasnogorsk-like simple design (if it's an Arri SR or Aaton for example) you should prepare to pay some serious money for proper cleaning/lubing/repairs before you can use it for any kind of project...

all of my Konvases for example had film chips, lots of dust and even small rocks inside them, plus dried lubricants and metal chips from the screws and lens mounts :blink:

I got them in good condition by myself but it took quite some time and nerves...

 

----

about half of the film's budget is headed towards equipment purchases, if you know ANYBODY who can lend or rent you the needed gear for student prices you can save some serious money and put it to other expenses, for example transportation etc. costs which always blow the budget in indie productions. you would get better equipment for less money and probably also better movie I think. unless you are going to sell the gear right after the shoot and cover other expenses with that

Edited February 4, 2016 by aapo lettinen

[Aapo Lettinen]

buying vs. renting is always a serious issue in indie productions. if you're shooting couple of days with digital for example with over 5000$ to camera equipment, you have to decide whether you want to for own for example Blackmagic Cinema Camera + basic lenses or do you want to shoot this single project with Amira or Scarlet or F5 with good rental lenses and maybe get some lights also.

 

if shooting digital I would maybe rent FS7 or similar lower cost camera package, rent some basic lights and use the rest of the budget for other expenses like transportation, wardrobe, makeup, marketing, etc.

with film I would rent SR3 or 416 and couple of superspeeds (or optars if the budget is very tight) and some lights and again use the rest of the money for something else.

Owning all the equipment is necessary if you do longer productions like features or documentaries or live in area where it is difficult to access rental equipment, otherwise you usually have to compromise quality or pay lots more if you want to own all your gear

[Gregg MacPherson]

some cameras, for example Krasnogorsks, can be quite easily serviced at home (to a point) and you don't necessarily need Camera Technician for that.

 

...about 80-90% condition is good enough for me ....

ebay cameras are usually not in usable condition out of the box, even if claimed to be unused or 'serviced' ....

 

Maybe something like a Krasnagorsk is a way out. But I don't know them at all.

All the moving parts in a camera may need some cleaning and lube, at intervals of time or after increments of work. Different parts will have different maintenance intervals. I'm not a tech, but I dissassembled and serviced some old ACL mags and it was obvious that some parts were designed to almost never need a lube, while others needed it quite regularly. Are all cameras a bit like that? If so, then without knowledge and training one can miss important maintenance. With skill and a maintenance manual maybe some things one can do, but other things I think it's risky.

 

There are plenty of cameras in usable condition sold on ebay. One has to vigorously ask though.

[Aapo Lettinen]

those Russian cameras are quite easy to service as long as you don't disassemble the movement/shutter combo or move the groundglass. cleaning/lubing is easy and magazines are easy to service and adjust. if there would be something wrong with the movement I would probably send it to Olex for adjusting and retiming or buy another camera body which can use the same magazines and accessories...

with old cameras the movement and shutter gears are usually completely dry and the magazines are also in bad condition. you can almost see the metal dust coming out from the bearings if you try to run them out of the box :o

 

the Russian gear is usually garage finds and other old stuff which has sat unused even decades. if you buy a camera from a person who really shoots with film gear, then you can maybe find something which can be lightly used without immediate disassemble and complete cleaning, adjusting and lubing <_<

Edited February 4, 2016 by aapo lettinen

[Gregg MacPherson]

If we keep chatting like this I think it may just keep getting more confusing of Tony etc.

 

Whether the Krasnagorsk can be maintained ok by those with limited expertise, I can't say. I am though, sure that Bolex, Beaulieux R16, Arri ST or SR, the Eclair 16mm cams, the Aatons, can't. And we should be cautious in presenting the idea that it is easy. When we see an apparently simple piece of engineering design, it doesn't mean that the function and maintenance is simple. Some of it for particular cameras is complicated. If one learns the relative merits of the different camerass in terms of the maintenance, one could choose a camera intelligently and begin a sensible maintenance program. Simply ignoring the more complex functioning parts untill they give a problem is not a good plan.

 

Even if we buy an interesting old car we don't take that approach. We find a good mechanic, introduce him to the car, let him see what this car needs over the next few years or km.

 

I'm in favour of those with some patience and skill doing some of the camera maintenance themselves, but there aren't really that many people with the patience and skill. So let's not propagate a sense that it's easy.

[Tyler Purcell]

I've personally done the math at buying vs renting S16 equipment and honestly, it's a lot cheaper to buy it on a credit card and sell it when done. A lot of people use this method of "funding" projects and it does work. It will save you the aggravation of always having to borrow/rent to finish your film and when you're done you can either keep the stuff and pay it off or sell it to get back your money. I like the "buy low sell high" method of this... good deals can be found on ebay all the time, it's just a question of being patient.

 

In terms of the Krasnagorsk, they're real junk in my opinion. Do they work? They CAN work. Are they any good? not really. The Bolex is a far better design in my opinion. I've worked on both and you couldn't get me near a Krasnagorsk again. They're such buckets of bolts inside, it's just a poor/cheap design which is why they're so cheap on ebay.

[Gregg MacPherson]

I've personally done the math at buying vs renting S16 equipment and honestly, it's a lot cheaper to buy it on a credit card and sell it when done. ..

 

 

Tyler, you need better math. If one buys without knowing exactly the condition of a camera and where it is in it's required maintenance cycles, one is at risk. How did you mathematically express that risk?

[Tyler Purcell]

Tyler, you need better math. If one buys without knowing exactly the condition of a camera and where it is in it's required maintenance cycles, one is at risk. How did you mathematically express that risk?

I've had far worse luck with rental cameras having problems then cameras I bought on ebay. People treat rental gear like crap and personal cinematographers equipment, is usually in far better shape. How do you know? Well, ya can't buy anything that looks like it came from a rental house and you've gotta ask a lot of questions. Then you've gotta do a camera test to insure it works before going and shooting a product. You need certain assurances what you buy will work, like the previous owner did a short film with the camera and he can send you a copy. All of that is so easy to do and if they don't have that stuff, then you move on.

[Aapo Lettinen]

krasnogorsks scratch film quite easily if you're not careful. otherwise they are actually quite good and reliable cameras. the K1 &K2 cassette systems are garbage though and if you're interested in K-cameras you should just buy the daylight spool load K3, remove the loop guides and use Western (metal) daylight spools with it.

 

you can also test rental cameras as easily as your own gear, just shoot a registration test on b/w film and develop it by yourself if you're not near a lab. aligning can be checked on quick change mag cameras with flashlight "projection" method and does not need film test at all. with dummy roll you can hear if there is something wrong with the camera or mag. you have to know how they should sound like though, lots of film camera problems can only be heard on set and it's too late to repair or adjust anything when the film comes back from the lab.

 

as said I don't disasseble movement parts so not much which could go wrong here other than accidentally breaking the plexiglass mirror of the Konvases... I test the ffd after each time I have opened a camera and if there's something wrong with it, it's usually just that you have tightened the screws in wrong order which can be very easily resolved

Edited February 5, 2016 by aapo lettinen

[Aapo Lettinen]

the thing is, if you don't use the camera very often you can get much better gear by renting or borrowing from a friend. for example, Alexa is too expensive for me but I can get Scarlets, Epics, FS7, F55, maybe Amira to a small production if I need to because I don't want to buy them all. it depends a lot of what you shoot, how many days, the production structure, locations (availability of equipment) etc.

I use my own three fresnel Chinese set if I have to save money or if it is more practical but otherwise I also rent the lighting gear.

 

It's just, it is complete madness to buy tens or hundreds of K:s worth of gear just to shoot a two day short film twice a year. If it would be couple of months per year it would be a whole lot different though.

 

you can of course purchase a film camera from ebay and sell it after the productions but it may double the price if there is something wrong with it in the beginning and you can't sell nonworking camera so you have to get it repaired anyway. If it's something you can't repair by yourself then I would buy a serviced camera from a reputable seller and not some garage find ebay stuff

[Will Montgomery]

In terms of the Krasnagorsk, they're real junk in my opinion. Do they work? They CAN work. Are they any good? not really. The Bolex is a far better design in my opinion. I've worked on both and you couldn't get me near a Krasnagorsk again. They're such buckets of bolts inside, it's just a poor/cheap design which is why they're so cheap on ebay.

A K3 was my first 16mm camera. Had the Super 16 mod both gate and drilled out the viewfinder to view the wider image, removed the loop formers and even had Bernie at Super16Inc do the laserbrighten on the mirror. I had excellent results with it, but it's a toy compared to the SR2. Plus, good luck winding it after every 20 second shot. For cheap 16mm I went to a Scoopic MS so I didn't have to wind the thing constantly! (but I wouldn't recommend that for your project)

 

I love Aatons, but I'd go with the SR2 any day of the week because I can get it serviced in almost any city still. Most camera rental houses have experienced camera techs that worked on these even if they don't rent them any more...most of the techs have moved over to servicing lenses. Arri techs seem to be much more common in the U.S. vs. Aaton techs.

 

I sent an SR1 over to Arri in NYC and they were able to rebuild the circuit board for me just a couple years ago. Don't know if they officially support the SR2's (probably not) but they still want to help filmmakers and Arri owners out whenever they can.

 

Bolex is a great option but with the SR2 you get 400' mags, rock steady registration and access to the best lenses in the world.

[Aapo Lettinen]

it is quite a lot cheaper per feet to buy 400ft rolls so a 100ft load camera is mostly practical if you can spool down your negatives from 400ft to daylight spools (like I do all the time, don't even remember when I last bought a new 100ft roll of 16mm) . if in good condition, the SR is a wonderful camera and easy to use. the question is, is it possible to get one in good enough condition at reasonable price and ALSO get good quality S16 lenses also for cheap. the latter one is much more unlikely I think because there is quite a bunch of kids with digital cameras buying the old 16mm glass for aesthetic purposes so the lenses are remarkably expensive compared to camera bodies which have fallen about 1000% in prices in the last six years.

 

if I would have bought a bunch of them old Lomo anamorphics 10 years ago (less than 1k for a good condition 3 lens set!!) I would be millionaire by now <_<

Edited February 5, 2016 by aapo lettinen

[Will Montgomery]

the question is, is it possible to get one in good enough condition at reasonable price and ALSO get good quality S16 lenses also for cheap.

 

They are built like tanks and even if they aren't perfect they can generally be fixed. PL Super 16 lenses are going up but Arri standard mount lenses are pretty reasonable still and can be multi-purposed for sure.

 

If Super 16 isn't a requirement an SR2 with a Arri mount & lens (complete package) in excellent shape can be had for around $1500. Standard 16mm on an SR2 is an excellent option. If good Super 16 SR2's are going for $2500-$3000 and SR3's in the $3500-4500 range, an standard SR2 doesn't sound that bad. The $1000-$2000 saved will purchase quite a bit of film for that camera. A little more grain can be a positive for some projects. Especially if you're trying to show off that it's on FILM.

[Tyler Purcell]

Yep SR's are real tanks, totally robust. My only beef with the camera is how the pull down does all the work and how the gate can wear very easily. Otherwise, they're a great deal if you don't need a S16 camera. There were many converted, but then you've gotta find Arri B mount S16 glass, which can be challenging and expensive.

 

Man, I've seen SR's for for a grand on ebay and SR2's for not much more. S16 cameras generally start around 1500, depending on the condition.

 

I've personally serviced SR, Aaton's and Bolex's. Arri's design is so nice and compact. With that being said, I personally prefer Aaton's design. It's very clever and it results in a much quieter camera that has better registration, which is pretty incredible to think of because nobody would consider the SR having a problem with registration!

[Freya Black]

If Super 16 isn't a requirement an SR2 with a Arri mount & lens (complete package) in excellent shape can be had for around $1500. Standard 16mm on an SR2 is an excellent option. If good Super 16 SR2's are going for $2500-$3000 and SR3's in the $3500-4500 range, an standard SR2 doesn't sound that bad. The $1000-$2000 saved will purchase quite a bit of film for that camera. A little more grain can be a positive for some projects. Especially if you're trying to show off that it's on FILM.

 

THIS! I really like the Super 16 format and it is a pain to have to mark out your ground glass for 16:9 or whatever you want on standard 16 but you have to weigh that up against the cost savings you could maybe make by having a standard 16 camera. Those savings might pay for a lot of film and processing which is more important. You need to be focused on what is more important in terms of "getting sh** done!"

 

Freya

[Dom Jaeger]

I've had far worse luck with rental cameras having problems then cameras I bought on ebay. People treat rental gear like crap and personal cinematographers equipment, is usually in far better shape.

I assume you're talking about having bad luck buying ex-rental cameras rather than renting them, because if you've found using rental cameras worse than eBay you're seriously using the wrong rental houses!

 

It's true that ex-rental cameras may have seen a lot of use, but if it's a reputable house with its own service department the cameras will have been regularly serviced and checked. A privately owned camera may have seen less action but may also have had far less regular maintenance. Each scenario has its disadvantages. There's also the risk with private cameras that the owner has pulled it apart in the misbegotten belief that he knows how to service it, which can lead to far worse issues than simple wear. With precision cameras like Aatons and Arris, the wrong lubricants, the wrong torque, an ignorance of which assemblies should be left at factory settings, the lack of essential jigs and measuring instuments, simply using the wrong tools, can all lead easily to misalignments and the potential early demise of a camera. If an owner tells you they serviced or lubricated the camera themselves, don't buy it!

 

Having worked for rental houses for 20 odd years I've found that most crews actually treat the gear pretty well, if the production has a decent gear rental budget they're usually professional crews. It's the students and indie wanna-bes that sometimes don't respect the equipment, mainly due to inexperience. But a hefty repair bill often educates them, and people who trash rental gear generally don't get hired again.

 

What you really don't want to do is buy an ex-film school camera..

[David Mullen ASC]

I've rarely had trouble with rental house cameras -- if I did, I'd switch rental houses! The cameras are regularly serviced and checked again before they go out the door, which is more than I can say for privately-owned cameras. In fact, my worst experience on a feature was using cameras borrowed from a private owner -- we finally determined that the owner must have gotten a lemon because it never worked right no matter how many times he sent it back to the manufacturer.