European Ultra 16

[Tom Chabbat]

Hi all,

 

I was curious to know, is there anyone here shooting in the ultra16 format in Europe ? And if so, how do you get your conversion, film processing and transfer ?

 

From the few information I succeed to gather it seems the only U16 friendly facilities are all based in the U.S.

 

The most recent post of european filmmakers I found here comes back to more than four years ago, so I'd be curious to know if things evolved since, as I'm seriously considering adopting it.

 

I'd very much like to see this format stepping a little more into the light.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Tom Chabbat

[Nicholas Kovats]

Tom,

 

Doug Palmer in the UK has documented his Ultra 16 modifications to his Bolex camera, i.e. http://www.filmisfine.com/blog/bolex-ultra-16-camera-sprocket/. I can't locate his blog posts regarding his U16 conversion of a Bolex projector. He can be contacted at

 

 

doug@filmisfine.co

 

 

He might have a handle on U16 processing and transfer. But any lab or scanner system with a sprocketless drive can provide these services. Those are the two fundamental lab/scanner requirements for my non-standard UltraPan8 Bolex camera system and I utilize them both here in Toronto, Canada.

 

Nicholas

[Will Montgomery]

I've been shooting U16 for years on my Scoopic, but have yet to transfer it properly since I've usually have used Spirits and they don't see between sprocket holes. I have many feet of film waiting to be re-transfered properly and get the entire image.

[Roberto Pirodda]

i have enlarged the gate of my 16mm Bolexes to full widht of the film , then i can chose to telecine Ultra16 or Super16 area. I have my own 3 CCD datacine frame by frame scanner up to 2,5K

[Tom Chabbat]

i have enlarged the gate of my 16mm Bolexes to full widht of the film

 

I'm curious, how did you do it ? Do you have your own lathe or mill ? Or did you go to some workshop ?

 

 

then i can chose to telecine Ultra16 or Super16 area.

 

 

Which one of these formats you use the most in the end ?

[Roberto Pirodda]

Hello Tom, i have both lathe and mill, it is a UNITOR unit made in Italy. I use it for my business about photographic equipment repair ( i am not only a cinematographer). About scanning, i usually scan in S16 because it is a more usable format. Unfortunately for U16 in the edge of the film there is the film code so i cannot use total widht of the film , otherwise i could achieve a wider aspect ratio vs S16

[Doug Palmer]

i have enlarged the gate of my 16mm Bolexes to full widht of the film , then i can chose to telecine Ultra16 or Super16 area. I have my own 3 CCD datacine frame by frame scanner up to 2,5K

Roberto, I'm currently converting another Bolex (non-reflex) to ultra-16. I was wondering whether to enlarge the gate to the full width, ie. wider than 1.85:1. Maybe something like 2.2:1. As you mention, the edge numbers are the problem on most film stocks. But maybe if we put our concerns to Ferrania and others, they would keep those numbers away <_< Wittner doesn't do the numbering on 200D.

But my query is this:

Did you have any problem enlarging the Bolex gate to the full width and how wide is that please? Is the film held flat and steady, as before ?

[Doug Palmer]

By edge numbering, I really mean those dreadful code numbers that appear every so often between the perfs.

[Roberto Pirodda]

yes, those hateful edge codes... anyway, i have already converted a non reflex Bolex. I left 1 mm per side to support the film, so the real width is 14mm. The film can be flat and steady with proper spring tension of pressure plate. I would like to enclose an image but here it is impossible

[Mark Dunn]

Wittner doesn't do the numbering on 200D.

It's not edge-numbered because it is cut from a wide roll of stills film. 16mm. is edge numbered so that a neg cut can be matched to a workprint.

[Phil Rhodes]

And when was that last actually done?

 

Has it been done in decades?

[Dirk DeJonghe]

Negcutting is still done, a new feature film is planned for later this year, they want negcut, traditional film grading and later a full scan of the cut negative, Baselight grading and DCP etc. Keykode numbers are essential for both negcutting and rescanning of selects.

[Phil Rhodes]

Yes, but - on 16mm?!

[Robert Houllahan]

Our Cintel Telecine, and both our Dynamic Perf (sprocketless) 4K Xena and our Pin Registered 5K Sequential RGB Xena can scan Ultra-16mm up to UHD or 4K.

 

DCS may be selling their Xena machines in Europe soon.

 

I just bought a Spirit 2K and I will see if there is any way to run Ultra-16 on it when we get it from LA next week.

[Doug Palmer]

It's not edge-numbered because it is cut from a wide roll of stills film. 16mm. is edge numbered so that a neg cut can be matched to a workprint.

I understand about the edge numbers for conforming of workprint, but I don't know why Kodak has to put another smaller code number further in every foot or so. So it prevents that bit of emulsion being used for image. And I don't understand why the other edge numbers have to be so large. They could be easily half the size and still be OK to use for matching.

[Robert Houllahan]

I understand about the edge numbers for conforming of workprint, but I don't know why Kodak has to put another smaller code number further in every foot or so. So it prevents that bit of emulsion being used for image. And I don't understand why the other edge numbers have to be so large. They could be easily half the size and still be OK to use for matching.

 

 

I think the issue is that the Edge Coding system that Kodak uses would have to be re engineered significantly to make the code and numbers smaller, and that is not likely to happen. Also the larger barcode and numbers make them easier to read by eye or machine in the event of some edge fogging.

[Doug Palmer]

yes, those hateful edge codes... anyway, i have already converted a non reflex Bolex. I left 1 mm per side to support the film, so the real width is 14mm. The film can be flat and steady with proper spring tension of pressure plate. I would like to enclose an image but here it is impossible

That's really wide :) and encouraging if you say the Bolex can handle it. So you think it should be OK if the camera is working well ? Mine is a flat-base H16M which runs regular 16mm very smoothly.

It's a shame about the edge codes. If more people use ultra-16 Varispect etc maybe manufacturers will take notice.

[Doug Palmer]

I do feel though rather nervous filing the gate out to that extent. It could void the Bolex guarantee :D

[Roberto Pirodda]

Well Doug, if your Bolex is still in guarantee better not alter it :-) anyway my bolex round base works great, it is not as steady as EBM but it has been so even before modification. It has the older pull down claw mechanism with steel gate .

[Kenny N Suleimanagich]

Yes, but - on 16mm?!

 

It has! Though certainly not on the scale it was done before.

[Doug Palmer]

Well Doug, if your Bolex is still in guarantee better not alter it :-) anyway my bolex round base works great, it is not as steady as EBM but it has been so even before modification. It has the older pull down claw mechanism with steel gate .

No, only joking about the guarantee :lol:

The H16M is quite compact without the reflex viewfinder and turret, and very steady, which is why I'm converting it to U16. I've already done that, but now I think I'll widen it a little more.

Did you need to reinforce the gate with more metal when you had finished widening it ? Is your model reflex or non-reflex ?

[Doug Palmer]

Hi all,

 

I was curious to know, is there anyone here shooting in the ultra16 format in Europe ? And if so, how do you get your conversion, film processing and transfer ?

 

From the few information I succeed to gather it seems the only U16 friendly facilities are all based in the U.S.

 

The most recent post of european filmmakers I found here comes back to more than four years ago, so I'd be curious to know if things evolved since, as I'm seriously considering adopting it.

 

I'd very much like to see this format stepping a little more into the light.

Coming back to Tom's query, it doesn't seem there is much support for U16 here in Europe. At least for the scanning services :unsure: But processing is straightforward if the machine doen't mark the image area, as Nicholas says. I have sofar used Andec with clean results. Haven't tried any other processors. For scanning you could convert a 16mm projector with good registration, by widening the gate and syncing up a digital camera. It's not too difficult. I did a blog post on a Bolex projector conversion but can't find it :( It works well

Yes it would be nice if more people used the U16 format. I like the 1.85:1 ratio. 1.79:1 doesn't seem 'artistic' to me, in composition.

[Roberto Pirodda]

the gate is hard enough ( steel ) so no reinforce. My Bolex round base was originally non reflex, now it is reflex. I took spares from a dead camera. My U16 is 14 mm wide x 6mm high so 2,33 aspect ratio

[Freya Black]

the gate is hard enough ( steel ) so no reinforce. My Bolex round base was originally non reflex, now it is reflex. I took spares from a dead camera. My U16 is 14 mm wide x 6mm high so 2,33 aspect ratio

 

I've often wondered about this, combining Super 16 with Ultra 16 to get wider aspect ratios.

How wide an aspect ratio is possible natively without using the image area where the edge code is? Do you know?

 

Freya

[Doug Palmer]

 

I've often wondered about this, combining Super 16 with Ultra 16 to get wider aspect ratios.

How wide an aspect ratio is possible natively without using the image area where the edge code is? Do you know?

 

Freya

Yes me too. Roberto, is it possible for you to let us have a photo of your Bolex H16 gate ? So shooting film with an edge code I guess you'd get something less than 14mm width.