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European Ultra 16


Tom Chabbat

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it is very tricky to upload pictures here, let me know your mail and i send you, then you can upload for me, ok?

Freya, what do you mean " combining" ? you must to shoot framing for S16 or U16, they have different aspect ratio. In U16 the frame is between sproket holes, as you know, and the aspect ratio is wider. The edge codes are placed in line with the half perforation, so let say that the safe area is 13 mm wide, that is 2.16 aspect ratio, better than S16 anyway

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it is very tricky to upload pictures here, let me know your mail and i send you, then you can upload for me, ok?
Freya, what do you mean " combining" ? you must to shoot framing for S16 or U16, they have different aspect ratio. In U16 the frame is between sproket holes, as you know, and the aspect ratio is wider. The edge codes are placed in line with the half perforation, so let say that the safe area is 13 mm wide, that is 2.16 aspect ratio, better than S16 anyway

 

 

I mean it is kind of neither ultra 16 or Super 16 in a way.

 

You are extending the width of the gate out further into the Super 16 (soundtrack) area than you would for Ultra16 and also out into the Ultra 16 area at the same time. Maybe beyond if I am understanding you right? Obviously you also can't use the height you get in Super 16 either because you are between the sprockets on the other side but it doesn't matter as this would still give you a wider native aspect ratio.

Edited by Freya Black
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well Freya, i do not know the exact SMPTE specs ( if any) for U16 frame, what i have done is simply enlarged the gate to expose the frame from side to side , saving one mm per side to support the film, so i have the freedom to chose which to scan, S16 or U16

 

Well there aren't SMPTE specs for U16 I suspect but generally it only goes a little way into the soundtrack area, i.e. it doesn't use that much of the Super16 part of the frame as the basic idea was you could shoot 16:9 with standard16 lenses instead of having to have lenses that don't vignette like in Super 16. I think it also means you don't have to re-center the lens either (although that isn't always done on cheap Super 16 conversions either) which saves more work too. I suspect you are going much further on both sides than would be normal for U16.

 

I'm interested in this as it seems like you could get even better results when shooting for wider aspect ratios like 2.39. It could even give an improvement for 1.85 over Super16 too!

 

It's an interesting idea and it may well be that its time will come, edge code or no edge code!

 

Freya

Edited by Freya Black
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it is very tricky to upload pictures here, let me know your mail and i send you, then you can upload for me, ok?
Freya, what do you mean " combining" ? you must to shoot framing for S16 or U16, they have different aspect ratio. In U16 the frame is between sproket holes, as you know, and the aspect ratio is wider. The edge codes are placed in line with the half perforation, so let say that the safe area is 13 mm wide, that is 2.16 aspect ratio, better than S16 anyway

 

I see yes. So almost 2.2:1 which is a pleasant aspect ratio..... like the 70mm composition. Would love to see any images of your modification. Here's my email

doug@filmisfine.co

 

 

 

Well there aren't SMPTE specs for U16 I suspect but generally it only goes a little way into the soundtrack area, i.e. it doesn't use that much of the Super16 part of the frame as the basic idea was you could shoot 16:9 with standard16 lenses instead of having to have lenses that don't vignette like in Super 16. I think it also means you don't have to re-center the lens either (although that isn't always done on cheap Super 16 conversions either) which saves more work too. I suspect you are going much further on both sides than would be normal for U16.

 

I'm interested in this as it seems like you could get even better results when shooting for wider aspect ratios like 2.39. It could even give an improvement for 1.85 over Super16 too!

 

It's an interesting idea and it may well be that its time will come, edge code or no edge code!

 

Freya

Yes, as aspect ratios seem to be getting wider these days on PCs and TVs it could encourage a 16mm system like this. And as I think I said before, maybe manufacturers could be also persuaded to keep those code markings well away. On negative as well as and reversal film. Ferrania team please take note :)

Of course this idea is not new, it's been tried before, but maybe then the latent markings were not such an issue. Two pioneers at opposite ends of the planet !........

http://www.filmisfine.com/blog/can-16mm-become-wider/

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Love your homemade work ;) but it doesn't look like it was milled but filed, am I wrong ? Right now I'm wondering about purchasing a milling attachement to my Unimat 3 to get the job done, I think that should do the trick...

 

Has anyone modified himself a NPR, be it in S or U16 ? There's a LOT of screw around the gate and I wonder which are the ones I need to get off to put just the gate away.

 

Still on the NPR, does the U16 modified units got a new ground glass with proper marking or do you just put a frame mask on the slot just before the ground glass ? (And how did you get the ground glass/make the frame mask ?)

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the sprokets rollers had been lathed on the upper side ( photo reference) till 1 mm, so no scratches in the S16 area, in the sprokets side was not possible to do any lathe machining, anyway is was very clean and gentle with film

Edited by Roberto Pirodda
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  • 1 month later...

For these very wide ratios it would be good if the manufacturer's markings did not intrude into the image area :huh: So I asked Ferrania whether it might be possible, and they have replied today:

 

" In theory yes is possible of course. In the case we can propose on the market a limited number of pieces in that format to test the size of the audience."

 

Ultra-16 and Varispect / Variscope users....maybe then it would be helpful to email Ferrania and let them know your preferences before 16mm production commences.

My ideal film would have very small name markings at the extreme edge of the film, with perhaps numbers for identifying frames, but not spreading into the area between the perforations.

 

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My ideal film would have very small name markings at the extreme edge of the film, with perhaps numbers for identifying frames, but not spreading into the area between the perforations.

 

Looking at some old pre-Keykode VNF, even the small edge-number figures are bigger than the space outside the perfs. But the tiny 'Kodak safety film' script with the date code is outside the perfs. If edge numbering went there as Robert says it would be susceptible to fogging. It might not be able to designate a particular frame unambiguously for neg cutting as the current edge numbers do.

Edited by Mark Dunn
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Looking at some old pre-Keykode VNF, even the small edge-number figures are bigger than the space outside the perfs. But the tiny 'Kodak safety film' script with the date code is outside the perfs. If edge numbering went there as Robert says it would be susceptible to fogging. It might not be able to designate a particular frame unambiguously for neg cutting as the current edge numbers do.

But surely edge-fogging might only happen at the start and end of a daylight roll ? In the case of fogged information I guess you'd have to eye-match the frames. Or scratch a tiny mark between one or two images on the regular-16 frameline.

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You can't match to marks which weren't on the raw stock.

Surely the answer is, as mentioned, for U16 users to negotiate a special run. The rest of the world ought to be able to rely on stock being compatible with the systems which have existed for many years.

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You can't match to marks which weren't on the raw stock.

Surely the answer is, as mentioned, for U16 users to negotiate a special run. The rest of the world ought to be able to rely on stock being compatible with the systems which have existed for many years.

No I meant scratch a mark or two on the developed original, between the ultra-16 (or wider) frames. So it then gets scanned or workprinted for matching. But would that really be necessary in practice ? Edge-fogging if it happens usually preserves some information. Having said that the best take always seems to be the last one on the spool :D

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