XL2 or XL-H1

[Landon D. Parks]

I had written a really long post in response to this, but I’m going to cut it down to get to the point: I am sorry if you feel your advice is being shot down a ‘novice’, as you call me. You even went so far to say I had no experience. In all honestly, using those two words when referring to me are a little hurtful. While I might not have the 25+ years of experience you claim to have, I only ever offered advice on the camera’s I have shot with. I don’t mean for a day or two, either.

 

As for me being a novice, that is 100% false. Over the past year, not only has my GH4 been on a commercial shoot (just several weeks ago) which I was paid for, but it’s also been underground for around 100 total hours over the winter. I have shot two separate theatrical plays with the camera, which I was paid for. I shot five total wedding videos with it over the past year as well, many late last fall. In addition, I have shot tons of tests for my upcoming project with the camera, including chroma, lowlight, and other tests. All totaled, I have over 200 hours logged on the GH4 for far, and it probably approaches 300 hours. So I am certainly no novice with the GH4, and feel perfectly well qualified to offer my advice regarding the GH4.

 

The pocket I have less experience with, but I still shot close to 50 hours’ worth of stuff on it, from ProRes to Cinema DNG Raw. Yes, most of it was nature stuff and tests, but in reality that does not matter. The subject of your camera is not even relevant, and it could be argued that one gets to know a camera much better when you’re putting it through its paces in testing rather than simply taking it out on projects, where it might not encounter a problem environment until after the return policy is up.

 

In conclusion, I cannot help but feel as defeated as you feel with me offering advice that you deem is ‘novice’. You say it bothers you when I offer advice, given I don’t know your level of experience. Well, it bothers me when someone tells me the camera I have shot with for a year and over almost 300 hours of footage is a toy and has no place in any environment, and then add insult to injury by saying I have no right to offer advice on that camera – given my being a ‘novice’. I don’t mean to be argumentive (I know it’s getting that way), but it appears that every time I offer some advice about what the GH4 is capable of, you feel the need to retort about how terrible it is, and then proceed to claim that only your advice is worthy. Same when I mentioned a Windows setup rather than Mac. I work on Windows since I was a child, and I know Windows. I offered George some advice on what sort of Windows setup might benefit him. You then retort that with how Windows is the bane of existence and how Mac is the only way to go, even though I (and many other professionals who use Windows) would highly disagree. Heck, you even complained about the C100 that Satsuki mentioned, chopping it down and going out of your way to show how terrible it is.

 

My final thoughts on this are this: I will continue to offer advice on areas I feel qualified to, and if that offends certain people it’ll just have to offend them. I welcome constructive arguments about things, But I am going to stop getting into playground fights with people who dismiss anything I say as a novice’s opinion, and then attempt to paint there was as the only way.

 

George, my advice is get whatever camera you can realistically afford that will offer you the best bang for the buck. I cannot force a GH4 on you any more than Tyler can force a pocket camera. You’ll have to take the ins and outs of each camera and weigh it against your needs. Frankly, for Youtube pretty much any descent camera will do – Pocket, GH4, C100. It really comes down to which workflow you prefer to follow (Pocket will require more post work, GH4 can also require more post or it can be shot with video profiles, I have no experience with the C100 so I cannot say on it). Heck, you might even prefer something like a JVC 4K video camera, which are are a nice ‘all in one’ solution with built in lens, ND’s, XLR’s, etc for around $1,500 or less.

 

As for Windows vs. Mac, it’s a tossup, and really depends on which you prefer to work with. If you’re experienced working on a Windows computer, there is absolutely no need to buy a Mac. If you’re comfortable with a Mac, you might want to stay there, or you might want to migrate to PC if you feel the cost to performance is better.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Landon D. Parks]

So here we are at an impasse. Two people who strongly suggest their own workflows. Neither workflow is WRONG, but one of them is formed from years of experience, in the industry, working on the ground level. The other is based on being outside of the industry, looking in from the outside and using technical specifications/consumer reviews, to make purchase decisions.

 

The experience I offered with my GH4 is not second hand nor gleaned from reviews and articles. If I talk about it, it's because that is my actual experience with it. Admittedly, you have not shot or even graded Gh4 footage like I'm discussing (ProRes GH4), yet I have. So I can't help but see how I am not the one with more experience in that area, at least here. While you might have a lot more filmmaking experience than I do, I have shot a lot more with the GH4 than you have, and have graded the ProRes vlog footage from it when you haven't.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Landon D. Parks]

And really that is all I have to say on this subject. I will be more than happy to help you, George, if you have any additional questions regarding the GH4 setup or a good hardware/software setup for Windows. Sadly, while I have a Mac, I am not that good with it's operation, and don't use it for networking or editing, so I cannot speak to it.

[George Ebersole]

Be cool guys :)

 

We're not on a set where I've seen tempers fly ... oh man, have I got stories. :blink: And I probably shouldn't repeat any of them here even though they were years and years ago.

 

I was out scoping components for a new desktop, and looking at lenses too. Lots of options.

 

The only thing that gets me is the vastness of options that are out there. Before it was use a Bolex or a low end Arri or Panaflex Elaine (anyone still use the Elaine?). But the field has simply exploded with all kinds of low priced cameras giving off great images.

 

I'm going to lay off posting for a while because I do need to get my backside in gear and actually shoot something. I will let you all know how it turns out! Thanks again! :D

[Tyler Purcell]

Man, I'm shooting BTS stuff with my Bolex EBM like it's going out of style. Haven't dropped any of it off at the lab yet! I hope it's got some sort of image when it's processed. :) I'm even helping a buddy do match-work on Super 8. We've got some 80's super 8 stuff we're trying to shoot NEW material for, as part of this documentary. That's been a fun project, doing the whole home-movie style of shooting and getting it to match older material.

 

I haven't even seen an Elaine close up, just a few pictures. It would be pretty tough to drag me away from an Aaton LTR/XTR though. Panavision probably still rents the Elaine because I've seen some pretty new pix with it. Believe it or not, until very recently, Super 16mm cameras have held their price nicely. In the last 5 years, the pricing has dropped, but demand is increasing and supply has decreased, so the pricing is slowly flatlining and in some cases, going back up as desperate filmmakers are buying for higher prices just to get their hands on something. 4 perf 35mm cameras are a dime a dozen though, the pricing for them is dropping very fast because people can't afford to shoot 4 perf. 3 perf and 2 perf cameras are holding reasonable value, but they are super rare. Many rental houses are holding on to them and so are owner/operators.

 

Film is making a comeback for sure, it's just a slow process.

[Satsuki Murashige]

It's unfair to have people on here with a great deal of experience, be overweighed by someone with none.

This is ironic on so many levels.

 

[JD Hartman]

This is ironic on so many levels.

 

 

Really? Which type? http://theoatmeal.com/comics/irony

 

I think someone here is missing their true calling as: lawyer; politician; traveling tent revival preacher.

[Satsuki Murashige]

Don't be an oversized chinchilla, JD!

[Landon D. Parks]

I'm going to lay off posting for a while because I do need to get my backside in gear and actually shoot something. I will let you all know how it turns out! Thanks again! :D

 

Sounds like a great plan! Just remember, all camera's have their advantage and disadvantages. A camera is nothing but a tool. Some people like hammers, some like nail guns... Other prefers screws, but the point is you can build a box with any of them - and in the end the box will likely still look the same as it would have had you chose another fastening method. By the time you grade a typical release, there is little difference in picture quality between any of the modern cameras. We can argue all day about the little bits, but in the end it only matters to you.

 

Choose the tool you can afford and that will deliver the project you need. No need to spend years pixel peeping at cameras. I learned this the hard way, because new camera's with better pixels will come out in a few months anyway.

 

In other news, looks like my toy GH4 and my novice self will be busy this Spring/Summer - just found out today I got a wedding venue contract I been after for several months.

[Landon D. Parks]

 

Really? Which type? http://theoatmeal.com/comics/irony

 

I think someone here is missing their true calling as: lawyer; politician; traveling tent revival preacher.

 

Definitely dramatic irony :). I love The Oatmeal.

 

BTW) I'm Landon: GH4 preacher and 'faith' healer. Is your GH4 broken? Bring it to me and my healing hands. I'd probably make a pretty bad politician, though...

Edited April 30, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Kenny N Suleimanagich]

The last time I worked with an Elaine was 2009. Would love to know of any recent stuff done on them. Those were rad, if not incredibly clunky cameras.

[Tyler Purcell]

The camera body alone looks to be twice the size of my LTR, completely setup and rolling.

[Satsuki Murashige]

2010 with the Elaine for me. I rather liked shooting with it, but then I didn't have to thread it or change the fuses!

[George Ebersole]

Okay, I think I got a bead on some possible cameras and lenses.

 

But now I'm trying to build a new desktop, and neither TYAN nor Intel build regular MBs. It's all server tech. I don't want to build a server :angry: Which means I have to buy ... an ASUS? <_<

 

I guess things have changed. And Intel doesn't even list which OS their CPUs are designed for. This is weird. I've built Frankenstein systems before, but, my god, what on Earth am I going to wind up with when I need to edit? Holy Toledo, the camera and props were the easy part.

[Landon D. Parks]

Okay, I think I got a bead on some possible cameras and lenses.

 

But now I'm trying to build a new desktop, and neither TYAN nor Intel build regular MBs. It's all server tech. I don't want to build a server :angry: Which means I have to buy ... an ASUS? <_<

 

I guess things have changed. And Intel doesn't even list which OS their CPUs are designed for. This is weird. I've built Frankenstein systems before, but, my god, what on Earth am I going to wind up with when I need to edit? Holy Toledo, the camera and props were the easy part.

 

All modern CPU's support any PC-based operating system - though really the only Windows you can buy now is Windows 10. You can also run Linux on a PC build, but that is a whole other can of worms.

 

Basically, the important part of building the computer is making sure the different hardware components line up. For example, the newest Intel CPU's now only support DDR 4 Ram, which means if you purchase an Intel-based CPU (one of the newer ones anyway) you'll need to ensure the socket types lines up with the motherboard, and that you are purchasing DDR4 instead of DD3 Ram - they are not backward compatible.

 

Likewise, if you're going with an AMD build, it's much easier. Basically, Any of the AMD FX processors will fit any AM3+ Motherboard. And all take DDR3 Ram.

 

The only other main issue you might face is your graphics card. Most are now PCI Express x16, so you'll need to ensure your motherboard has that PCI bus on it. Most do.

 

With that said, I'd be more than happy to help you part out a PC to your specification that will work. Just let me know. I have build PC systems for years on a custom-order basis, so I'm very well versed in the best part combinations. If you don't want to build one yourself, I'd also be happy to assemble one for you to meet your price point and performance expectations.

 

Here is my personal opinion on AMD v. Intel: Intel processors are great for games, but I think the additional cores of the AMD-based processors are better suited to video editing. In addition, AMD builds are more budget friendly and easier to part due to their compatibility. Combine a FX9590, 64GB of Ram, and a R9 390 or 390x graphics card and you'll have a killer editing system without breaking the bank.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Tyler Purcell]

I've built Frankenstein systems before, but, my god, what on Earth am I going to wind up with when I need to edit? Holy Toledo, the camera and props were the easy part.

People go about the process all backwards. Since your starting from scratch, first thing is the camera. Then the software that's compatible with that camera, then the hardware last. For instance, if you plan on shooting Long GOP MPEG, I'd recommend Sony Vegas because it's made for those file types. If you were working with Pro Res or RAW of any kind, I'd absolutely recommend Premiere or the newest version of Final Cut Pro X. Both of which are very good at working with Pro Res AND Premiere has native integration with Cinema DNG, which is the flavor of RAW the blackmagic cameras shoot.

 

So first step, camera. Second step software. Third step "supported" hardware.

 

In terms of the PC, the cheapest way to roll is AMD as Landon pointed out. The AMD processors are pretty good for the money, not to the level of Intel, but they're so much less money, it's kind silly to buy Intel today. There are a lot of compatibility problems with PC's today... the big one of course is Windows compatibility with certain hardware. Then of course, does the software you want to run work on Windows 10 properly with the drivers for your hardware? Most of the time, you can get things working fine if you like tinkering and don't care about being down. Of course, then windows does an update at night behind the scenes and breaks things. It's all such a real mess and as I pointed out earlier, time is money and if you spend a few days frustrated and maybe hire an expert to help, you could have just bought a pre-made computer.

[George Ebersole]

AMD huh?

 

It's funny, I've never built an AMD machine. All the magazines say AMD outperforms Intel on the higher end (or they used to). And, strangely enough, one of my early gigs was to do a Building Inspector video for their campus off 101 when the building was still under construction.

 

But to build an AMD system? Okay. I'll weigh the cost of components and see what I can come up with.

 

Yeah, I've never had a problem with any system I've ever built until five plus years down the line, and it's always been heat and dust that are the culprits. I've never had a system just kind of go bad for the sake of it. I must be doing something right :D

 

Interesting. Okay, thanks for the input. Very helpful :)

[Landon D. Parks]

In terms of editing software, I'd stick with Resolve 12.5. It's now a fully featured editor and color corrector in one package, with a crap-ton of delivery options. It supports most all codecs as well. Best part? It's free. I have used Vegas (and it's still on my computer, and I use DVD Architect Pro all the time), though I think Vegas has fallen behind in the world of features. Frankly, I wouldn't personally use Vegas, but that is just me. I'm sure it performs just fine, and is probably just a preference thing. I never was a Sony software fan.

Another really powerful editing software and combined VFX package is Hitfilm 4 Pro. It costs about $350, and it's basically a combined Premiere Pro and After Effects. The Pro version comes with Mocha for tracking, and Boris for titling. Delivery options are little limited in my opinion, but nothing is stopping you from exporting an EXR file and loading that into the free version of resolve to take advantage of it's massive delivery options.

 

In my opinion, the best software is not only one program - but a combination of programs that meet your needs. I have RX5, Pro Tools, and Audition for audio work, and use all three regularly. Each does their own thing best. Most of my editing is done in Resolve, but I can work in Premiere Pro as well. Hitfilm I have and use occasionally, though it doesn't really do anything Resolve doesn't when combined with Fusion, so I don't use it much. Vegas I have but never use. I mainly keep it in case someone sends me a Vegas file to edit.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Landon D. Parks]

Here is my suggestion for a AMD-based PC Build. All parts are sourced from Microcenter, which seems to have the best prices at any time. However, you can also price from Newegg.com as well - just copy and paste the names of the below components.

 

AMD FX 9590 - $179.00

MSI Radeon R9 390 GAMING 8GB GDDR5 graphics card - $329.00

Crucial Ballistix Elite 32GB DDR4-2666 PC4-21300 CL16 Quad Channel Desktop Memory Kit - $169.00

ASUS 970 Pro Gaming/Aura AM3+ ATX AMD Motherboard - $117.99

SanDisk SSD Plus 480GB SATA III 6Gb/s 2.5" Internal Solid State Drive SDSSDA-480G-G25 - $119.00<--- This is your OS/Programs/Cache disk.

Toshiba 3TB 7,200 RPM SATA III 6Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive DT01ACA300 - $79.99 <--- This is your media IN / Project storage drive.

Toshiba 3TB 7,200 RPM SATA III 6Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive DT01ACA300 - $79.99 <--- This is your media OUT drive.

LG Internal 16x Super-Multi Blu-ray Writer - $129.99

Microsoft Windows 10 Professional 64-bit - 1pk DSP OEM DVD - $139.99

Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy RX PCIe Surround Sound Card - $79.99

2 x AOC I2379VHE 23" LED IPS Monitor - $240.00 for both.

 

For a case, you can choose anything that will hold an ATX motherboard. Preferably one with plenty of internal drive bays for future addition to the HDD's.

 

The above is basically the setup I have. I also have a NAS with RAID for in and out, but that is because I have so many files on my computer at any time I need the extra storage.

 

IF you choose to use DaVinci Resolve for anything much, you'll need a Blackmagic Mini Monitor card. Resolves does not export a full screen video through a standard graphics card - you need a blackmagic I/O card. One of the drawbacks of Resolve, really.

 

If you choose to use Adobe / Hitfilm / Vegas, etc - those programs will output a full screen preview to any monitor attached to your video card. I'd highly recommend adding a third monitor for this purpose, since it's very handy to have two monitors for UI/Workspace.

 

IF you also want to do Rec709 spec color collection, you'll really need the following as well:

Blackmagic Mini Monitor I/O Card - $139 from BH Photo Video. Make sure you get the monitor and not the recorder card - they are the same price and look the same.

 

Then you'll need a Rec 709 monitor, or one that can produce at least 99% of sRGB space. FSI monitors are great, but expensive. A cheaper option is something like an HP Dreamcolor or similar. Additionally, if you buy a Shogun or any of the Atomos recorders with a 7" screen, you'll have a rec 709 monitor there you can hook to your HDMI port out of the Mini Monitor card.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Landon D. Parks]

Forgot to mention, you'll need a CPU cooler with the 9590, which is does not include. The one I use (and suggest) is this http://www.microcenter.com/product/404780/Hydro_Series_H55_Quiet_Edition_Liquid_CPU_Cooler. It's $70 and keeps my processor running at around 60 Celsius under full load.

[Tyler Purcell]

Yeah, I've never had a problem with any system I've ever built until five plus years down the line, and it's always been heat and dust that are the culprits. I've never had a system just kind of go bad for the sake of it. I must be doing something right :D

Well yea, but modern software is a mess, a lot of it is coded very poorly. It has a lot of memory leaks and especially on PC's, driver conflicts. Plus the security issues that plague operating systems is very different then it was only a few short years ago. So generally the hardware lasts a decent amount of time, but the software is the real bugaboo.

[George Ebersole]

One last question; what's the life expectancy on the Blackmagic verse the GH4?

[Landon D. Parks]

Both camera's will last as long as you care for them - within reason of course. The camera technology is really pretty much the same, so a CMOS chip will fail the same time pretty much any other CMOS chip will fail, and it's not dependent on the camera. As for which company makes better cameras: It's really a toss-up. Blackmagic has a much more 'closed' and hands-on process in making the cameras, which can be good or bad depending on the person building the camera. Panasonic on the other hand has been building cameras and every other form of electron for decades without fail, so they have the technology and QC to ensure a quality product. Remember: Panasonic is not a cheap brand - they're quality standards are just as high as any electronics manufacturer like Canon.

Build quality, I remember the pocket seeming a little more flimsy to me than the GH4, but this may not have been the case. The GH4 was weather sealing and is enclosed in an alloy cage. Not sure what the build material is on the pocket, but it's probably close to the same. I don't think the pocket is weather sealed though (it might be, but I don't remember that being a selling point of it).

 

Of course, your original question is really not answerable, because neither the GH4 or Pocket have been in the market long enough to really determine at what point each will simply poop out. Most of the time, these camera's will never reach that point because most people will upgrade every few years anyway, and the technology itself will deplete long before the camera does.

 

Heck, a good friend of mine still has a Canon XL1 that works great - he just doesn't use it for obvious reasons.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Tyler Purcell]

One last question; what's the life expectancy on the Blackmagic verse the GH4?

Nobody really knows, they're both still so new. I treat my equipment like crap, literally. I've had my Blackmagic's all over the country. They've been on dozens of flights, they've been thrown around in a little backpack the whole time. I've had them on boats, being splashed by salt water accidentally. I've been in the pool with water up to my shoulders, with the shoulder rig getting shots and being splashed of course. I've had them covered in dirt from my motocross video's. I've had them setup in the desert for long periods of time in 115 degree heat. I've been in the snow with both of them, shooting a friends snowboarding video. Both my cameras have been dropped as well, numerous times though most of the time I was there to dampen the fall. Since we started this conversation, I've done some math and just on how much media is on my backup drives, I've personally shot well over 1000hrs between the two cameras. I've also been a hired shooter for dozens of projects, I can't keep tabs on them, but the cameras have easily seen another 500 - 800hrs on random stuff. I can't imagine them ever failing, if they've taken this much abuse and not failed, they will probably last quite a while. They do have 2 little hiccups, the screw mount on the bottom and top can come loose if you abuse the living crap out of your camera. Easy to fix, but something to note. Also, if you use the power adaptor, the camera will always overheat. It takes around 2hrs and the thing just shuts down on it's own. This isn't a problem with the internal batteries, only with the power adaptor. I assume the time it takes to change batteries, is enough to cool it down.

 

So that begs the question, what is the "technology" life expectancy. Well, the pocket shoots all the 1080p flavors of Pro Res, which is sticking around. It also shoots Adobe's Cinema DNG RAW, which is a great format. So I don't think the codec is a problem. The camera does have 12 stops of latitude on disk, unlike many of it's competitors, so that's good enough. Really the only issue with the pocket is the imager resolution, being stuck at 1080p. How long will 1080p be acceptable and personally, for internet videos, I don't see that ever changing. Most people who shoot 4k, down res to 1080p for distribution anyway, so in my eyes, I don't see any difference. Shoot using the resolution you'll be distributing on, that's my motto. Now if you're doing heavy green screen and visual effects work, it's nice to have a larger imager so you can crop the image and still have some resolution. For any other work, if your plan is to distribute online, a 1080p camera is more then adequate.

 

One more thing to note, Blackmagic just released their SDK (software development kit) to developers for the first time. So now, people can give input on features and help them code better software for the future. This means, the pocket camera will receive all of those updates as time goes on. Blackmagic continues to push every ounce the little camera can get out of it, which is very cool. The other manufacturers build a camera and after a few years, dump it from their production line, but blackmagic has stood by the pocket and continued it's software development, which is very cool.

[Landon D. Parks]

How long will 1080p be acceptable and personally, for internet videos, I don't see that ever changing. Most people who shoot 4k, down res to 1080p for distribution anyway, so in my eyes, I don't see any difference.

 

This is the one part I don't really agree with. Back less than a decade ago (7 years, in fact), HD YouTube was a fancy new thing that no one thought would take off. 'Web video' was 480p at best, usually less - and highly compressed. Saying you don't see 1080p ever changing for web video is not a very careful thought. Is 4K here just yet? No - but as the cost of 4K sets come down (they are already about the same price as 2k sets, sometimes cheaper), and as internet bandwidth increases with new technologies like fiber optics, 4k delivery on the internet will soon become the new 'HD', with 'HD' falling to the side of 480p quality of YouTube. When will this happen? Who knows - I'd say within 5 years though. Youtube is already offering 4K playback on videos, and services like Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon are now demanding that all original material shot for them be delivered at 4k.

 

4K is currently a novelty, but if technology has proven anything - it would be a novelty for long.

 

Currently, I shoot at 4k but do not deliver at 4k. But at least the GH4 is ready to deliver 4K when the time comes for it, something which will require an entirely new camera from Black Magic. Shooting 4k also has it's advantages (as you mentioned above) - you can re-frame in post, you can shrink the frame for better color reproduction, etc.

 

As for which camera (GH4 vs Pocket) is more sturdy, I'd say either one is about the same. I have had my GH4 in 100% humid cave environments (even dropped it in the water once). I have had it out in rain. I have dropped it on cement at least four times (well, two of those times was an assistant dropping it - but still). I will say though, I try to be careful with the camera. While it might well hold up to being ran over by a tank, I'm not going to try it.

 

The only thing really keeping 4K from taking off faster right now is that 4K sets really aren't that much better than HD top most people. Since people already own HD sets sets, they don't upgrade. However, once those TV's become obsolete or tear up, which should start happening over the next few years - you'll see the 4K set ownership numbers explode.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Landon D. Parks