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connor denning

What camera should I use?

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Um unless i'm missing something those were shot at 24 fps. People don't use lower frame rates to let more light in typically, the use faster lenses and film stocks with high ASA/ISO. The candle light in those scenes is also supplemented with other lighting, which is a pretty standard tactic as well.

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Can't do 24fps dialog with lower frame rates, without dubbing. I doubt Kubrick would use lower frame rates to let more light in. He'd probably use a lower shutter angle.

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"Barry Lyndon" wasn't shot undercranked as far as I know. Certainly you aren't going to try to judge motion smoothness on a compressed YouTube clip. Besides there is sync dialogue in the first clip and the candle flames do not look sped-up in their motion.

 

As for shutter times longer than 1/24, if your camera is taking a new picture 24 times every second, then with no shutter (360 degree shutter angle), the max time that a frame can be exposed to light is 1/24th of a second, otherwise you'd be bending the laws of physics. And even with no shutter, 1/24 at 24 fps, your motion blur will be twice as heavy compared to a standard 180 degree shutter.

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The candlelight scenes in "Barry Lyndon" were lit with candles, no electrical lighting added to increase the exposure. They were triple-wicked candles and sometimes aluminum foil was used on the ceiling for off-camera candles in chandeliers to increase output and for heat protection on location.

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I stand corrected on the fill light, might have been other candle sources/bounces I was seeing, just noticed when the candles flickered not all light was lost. Thanks for the info David.

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I saw the movie in much better quality, A lot of it looks under cracked. On top of that I know the actors where told to move very slowly and to make no sudden moments because it would look too choppy, and to much motion blur. Compared to the rest of the movie it seemed to be at a lower frame rate. But I just want to know if lowering the frame rate on magic lantern to use lower shutter speeds, like is it limited to 1/30 even if it's set to 10 fps? cause with out magic lantern it's limted to 1/30 even when set to 24 fps.

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I saw the movie in much better quality, A lot of it looks under cracked. On top of that I know the actors where told to move very slowly and to make no sudden moments because it would look too choppy, and to much motion blur. Compared to the rest of the movie it seemed to be at a lower frame rate. But I just want to know if lowering the frame rate on magic lantern to use lower shutter speeds, like is it limited to 1/30 even if it's set to 10 fps? cause with out magic lantern it's limted to 1/30 even when set to 24 fps.

So David Mullen, one of the most respected members of the community, a DP with a lifetime of experience and an encyclopedic knowledge of film making and how other films were created has explained to you that the film was not shot under cranked, and brought up the methods they used to get enough light etc. And you are going to completely disregard that information for your own 'belief' that you are correct because it "looked choppy" and you heard a rumor. I feel like this entire thread you have been disregarding huge amounts of valuable advice with the sole intent of doing something the way you want to do it, asking many questions which could be answered by just doing some research on your own (Magic Lantern has their own website and forums full of information). I'm personally really amazed at the patience and kindness the community has shown answering your questions and trying to help you, but I fear in the end you don't want help you just want someone to tell you that your way is correct and how to do it, regardless of the realities and practices of film making.

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So David Mullen, one of the most respected members of the community, a DP with a lifetime of experience and an encyclopedic knowledge of film making and how other films were created has explained to you that the film was not shot under cranked, and brought up the methods they used to get enough light etc. And you are going to completely disregard that information for your own 'belief' that you are correct because it "looked choppy" and you heard a rumor. I feel like this entire thread you have been disregarding huge amounts of valuable advice with the sole intent of doing something the way you want to do it, asking many questions which could be answered by just doing some research on your own (Magic Lantern has their own website and forums full of information). I'm personally really amazed at the patience and kindness the community has shown answering your questions and trying to help you, but I fear in the end you don't want help you just want someone to tell you that your way is correct and how to do it, regardless of the realities and practices of film making.

It's not as much that but that The way I'm doing it is doing it with the money I have to spend, witch won't turn out a well as it could. I did not here a rumor about it, I heard that they where instructed to move slowly from an interview with one of the actors in the film. I'd rather not undercrank my camera but I may have have to get it properly exposed under conditions I may have to film under, like simple or no lighting set up (because I may or may not have permission to shoot there And I'd rather not push it) early in the night trying to have it look like natural light, even if theres some noise at least have it exposed properly, I mean as long as you know you're shooting at a low frame rate it's not to hard to hid, or I'm I missing something?

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meant doesn't it allow you to shoot at higher resolution for longer on raw? It should easy the buffer but if there's some firmware limitation or something I'm forgetting it should work...

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I saw the movie in much better quality, A lot of it looks under cracked. On top of that I know the actors where told to move very slowly and to make no sudden moments because it would look too choppy, and to much motion blur. Compared to the rest of the movie it seemed to be at a lower frame rate. But I just want to know if lowering the frame rate on magic lantern to use lower shutter speeds, like is it limited to 1/30 even if it's set to 10 fps? cause with out magic lantern it's limted to 1/30 even when set to 24 fps.

The 'Barry Lyndon' scenes were not shot under-cranked. For one thing, most of them are dialogue scenes.

 

Furthermore, the cinematography of this film is one of the most well documented of the last 40 years. It's well known how those candlelight scenes were shot - the special lenses used, the modified Mitchell camera, the triple-wicked candles, etc. The actors were directed not to move much so that they would stay in focus since they were shooting at f/0.7 without any kind of reflex viewing system. The film was also designed around a tableau style of framing and blocking, exemplifying the slow pace of life at the time.

 

Here's a recently posted video that goes into great detail about the cinematography of 'Barry Lyndon' if you are interested in learning more about the film: http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=71801&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

 

To answer your question about Magic Lantern, yes you can undercrank and it works just like a motion picture film camera. So if you shoot at 6fps with a 180 degree shutter, your shutter speed will be 1/12.

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Max resolution possible with Magic Lantern depends on the speed of the cards you are using and the other settings you have turned on in the camera. You also need to format the cards as ExFAT in a computer for the best performance. If you turn off global draw, audio recording, and a few other things you might be able to eek out a bit more resolution.

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Max resolution possible with Magic Lantern depends on the speed of the cards you are using and the other settings you have turned on in the camera. You also need to format the cards as ExFAT in a computer for the best performance. If you turn off global draw, audio recording, and a few other things you might be able to eek out a bit more resolution.

I'm assuming global draw is the LCD display, or the on screen FX?

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The 'Barry Lyndon' scenes were not shot under-cranked. For one thing, most of them are dialogue scenes.

 

Furthermore, the cinematography of this film is one of the most well documented of the last 40 years. It's well known how those candlelight scenes were shot - the special lenses used, the modified Mitchell camera, the triple-wicked candles, etc. The actors were directed not to move much so that they would stay in focus since they were shooting at f/0.7 without any kind of reflex viewing system. The film was also designed around a tableau style of framing and blocking, exemplifying the slow pace of life at the time.

 

Here's a recently posted video that goes into great detail about the cinematography of 'Barry Lyndon' if you are interested in learning more about the film: http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=71801&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

 

To answer your question about Magic Lantern, yes you can undercrank and it works just like a motion picture film camera. So if you shoot at 6fps with a 180 degree shutter, your shutter speed will be 1/12.

I think I was wrong on that one.

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It's possible that one shot in the movie was undercranked for the exposure though I don't recall reading about that, but the vast majority of candlelight scenes were shot at 24 fps, and many had sync dialogue.

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It's possible that one shot in the movie was undercranked for the exposure though I don't recall reading about that, but the vast majority of candlelight scenes were shot at 24 fps, and many had sync dialogue.

Didn't they have sync motors that worked at 16ish fps.

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Didn't they have sync motors that worked at 16ish fps.

No.

You have misinterpreted what you have read. Berenson and O'Neal did indeed move very slowly in the scene you refer to, but this was because Kubrick required a very slow pace to the scene, not because it was undercranked.

BTW David is being very patient with you. He knows what he's talking about.

Tyler, the BNC variable shutter was removed to accommodate the f0.7 lens.

Edited by Mark Dunn

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I'm assuming global draw is the LCD display, or the on screen FX?

I believe it's all the metadata on the screen, so frame lines, peaking, histogram, audio levels, ISO, shutter, aperture data, etc. It's just called Global Draw in the ML menus. Turning it off while recording is supposed to increase bandwidth in the camera to keep the data rate up.

 

In my opinion, it's not really worth it though - you kinda need all that stuff to actually shoot. It even turns off the record tally light, which is kind of important. You don't want to shoot a long emotional take only to realize the camera stopped recording five minutes ago...

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Tyler, the BNC variable shutter was removed to accommodate the f0.7 lens.

Yea that's what I thought, but didn't they make a special shutter with a higher shutter angle to let more light in?

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They left the shutter fixed at the maximum opening possible for a Mitchell BNC, which I believe is 200 degrees like a Panaflex. However that only gains you something like 1/6th of a stop more exposure over a standard 180 degree shutter.

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I guess anything is better then nothing.

 

So riddle me this one. It was a non reflex camera at that point, so how did they check the composition and focus? by removing the lens, moving it over to a viewfinder and back again? I don't understand how the mathmetics of that work.

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Something to consider about magic lantern raw. Rental houses that used to rent Canon 5d with ML have stopped doing so. Probably for several reasons but, mostly because it works when it wants to, not when you need it to. They only make money off of things that people are willing to rent and if it doesn't work, they won't rent it. Sure plenty of people have, but it was an experiment, not a real world solution. There is the very big possibility that while you are shooting at a location that you do not have permission to do so or very limited access, it will crap out. Given your run and gun, damn it all approach, you want a camera that works time and again. None of the specs, bit rates, resolution or codecs that you speak of matter at all. Get a real video camera and shoot with it. It seems that you are young and just starting out. Don't follow the pack and shoot with a DSLR, get a Canon Vixia with external recorder and when you can afford it, get a better set up. Follow the advice that has been given to you here. Please don't harp on the actors that are free. You can barely afford more than a grand for a whole camera AND sound package, so whose fault is it that the actors are not being paid. There are many very talented people out there who will work for free, on a good script and for nice people.

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I guess anything is better then nothing.

 

So riddle me this one. It was a non reflex camera at that point, so how did they check the composition and focus? by removing the lens, moving it over to a viewfinder and back again? I don't understand how the mathmetics of that work.

Presumably with a sidemounted parallax finder.

 

Here's a picture of a BNC with what appears to be a parallax finder

bncr_mary_tyler_moore_large.jpg

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