Deferred payment

[George Ebersole]

Some time back I worked a trailer to sell a feature, and signed away my life with the promise of deferred payment if the project got picked up.

 

I don't expect to be paid, but I was wondering if anybody had ever gotten a cheque out of a deferred payment gig.

[David Mullen ASC]

I've done it twice early in my career, and no, didn't see any money later. Didn't expect to though. I did do two very low-budget films with very low pay though where after the directors sold the movies, they gave me a check to cover the time I spent in post doing the answer printing and home video mastering, something I didn't expect and was very nice of them.

[Kenny N Suleimanagich]

I did once, shooting for a documentary. When it was sold to a television channel, I received payment in the form of personal check from the producer.

[JD Hartman]

Did it once and none of the crew was never paid even though the feature did sell on the direct to DVD market. The Producer continues to operate in this same manner many years later.

[David Mullen ASC]

I'd avoid working with a producer who makes it a habit of using an unpaid crew. If the project is clearly a labor of love by a first time director/producer, then I think it's everyone's personal calculation as to the value of doing the job without pay -- for someone who needs the credits and experience, who wants to see the project get made, if it is clearly sort of a non-commercial tiny art project, etc. then it might be worth it as long as you realize that the chances are low of getting money later. What drives me nuts is when the filmmakers doesn't understand why they can't put together a large experienced crew with the promise of deferred payment because while there might be a good reason for a creative department head to get involved, there is less and less reason for a grip or electric or AC to work unpaid.

[Nathan Walters]

I was actually paid from a "deferred payment" gig a couple months. I had no real expectation of actually being paid, but was thrilled and honestly shocked when I was. The project didn't make any money but they decided to pay me out of pocket later, which was greatly appreciated. That being said, I think the safe bet is that when you see "deferred payment," to assume it means "no payment." Though maybe I'm just cynical.

[Jay Young]

I got paid to do a short film BEFORE we actually shot. Is that undeferred?

[David Mullen ASC]

I got paid to do a short film BEFORE we actually shot. Is that undeferred?

 

I think it is just ferred...

[Phil Rhodes]

Preferred.

 

In more ways than one.

[Guest]

Hilarious thing is....name even one other industry where people are willing to give their labour away for free in the hopes of getting paid later.

 

Good luck finding someone to mow your lawn, take out your garbage, or get that root canal done with a "deferred" payment. In any other industry people want to get paid for their labour, period. Only on a film job website can you post ads that say, "non-paid position," and then get 100 resumes from people who will take the job.

 

R,

[David Mullen ASC]

Hilarious thing is....name even one other industry where people are willing to give their labour away for free in the hopes of getting paid later.

 

 

The music industry?

[Landon D. Parks]

Hilarious thing is....name even one other industry where people are willing to give their labour away for free in the hopes of getting paid later.

 

Good luck finding someone to mow your lawn, take out your garbage, or get that root canal done with a "deferred" payment. In any other industry people want to get paid for their labour, period. Only on a film job website can you post ads that say, "non-paid position," and then get 100 resumes from people who will take the job.

 

R,

 

Theatre. Happens all the time. And while theatre might not be as much a money-maker as film, it still requires legitimate jobs like lighting designers, set designers, stage managers, someone to hang and gel the lights, etc. In the vast majority of cases, this work is all done 100% free without any expectation of remuneration. The reason it's done for free, in a lot of cases, is so that people can gain experience and make contacts - in hopes that they can break into the big time and get paid one day.

 

We used volunteer labor at BRT all the time. Actors, crew - all were volunteers. And we had waiting lists miles long for people wanting to do nothing more than help load in sets and hang lights. Of course we were a nonprofit, but does that really make it any better? Is film really somehow THAT different from theatre that it must always be considered for-profit? Most films don't make a profit anyway, much like theatre.

 

It's basically the same exact mentality in film. In a way, the industry itself has created the problem. It done so by essentially closing out anyone with no contacts or experience from getting a foot in the door. What is someone left to do, other than to work for free so they can meet someone or gain the IMDb credits to be taken seriously.

 

As David also said, the music industry is full of this as well - though on a different note from film and theatre. Music tends to be a labor of love for the band members, and are structured more like a partnership business where they share whatever money they make. Agents, music producers, the stage tech hanging the lights, the sound board op, etc., rarely are doing it for free - usually collecting IATSE rates.

[Guest]

 

 

The music industry?

 

In what capacity would you see that happening?

 

R,

[Guest]

We used volunteer labor at BRT all the time. Actors, crew - all were volunteers. And we had waiting lists miles long for people wanting to do nothing more than help load in sets and hang lights. Of course we were a nonprofit, but does that really make it any better? Is film really somehow THAT different from theatre that it must always be considered for-profit? Most films don't make a profit anyway, much like theatre.

 

Well community theatre is a totally different model, of course one expects that to be un-paid and volunteer.

 

Film....so many frustrated parents who hear their son got a "degree" in film, and his first job is working for free as a set PA. I can see their point. And largely why my two sons have been banned from the movie industry.

 

R,

[David Mullen ASC]

You don't think there are unpaid interns working for record producers?

[Guest]

You don't think there are unpaid interns working for record producers?

 

Ah that group, I wasn't really thinking about them. But yes, ok.

 

R,

[Landon D. Parks]

 

Well community theatre is a totally different model, of course one expects that to be un-paid and volunteer.

 

True, but the real issue is it spreads far beyond community theatre. BRT was a semi-professional theatre that paid 'box office percentage' to actors and key crew, which is similar to the definition of 'deferred pay' I guess. The big difference with theatre I suppose is that you're pretty much guaranteed to make something due to the nature of the end product.

 

There was another theatre company in town rolling in a $1 million annual budget that still relied on volunteers. If it were only the 'for the fun of it' community theaters doing it, I'd agree - but it's not.

 

Not saying I agree with the practice at all, but it sort of just 'is' in some industries. Of course getting someone to mow your lawn is not going to be free. Mowing lawns can only go so far - to mowing other laws. Though I would point out many people, when younger, will mow lawns for free or a tiny amount, to gain experience and contacts. Most people mow lawns to earn a living, not because they find it fun. Film, theatre, music, etc is full of 'creative' people, and lets face it - film, theatre, and music is fun, something that can't be said of giving a root canal or mowing a lawn.

 

So in reality, the newbie working for free is not exactly a film-industry invention. Film, theatre, music, etc. There are also the countless interns working for free at pretty much ever major corporation, with the dream of landing that great job if they prove themselves good.

 

It's sort of a new take on the old 'apprenticeship' program of the past. Work for free for a master, where you will learn a trade, and then become your own master making money.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Guest]

 

Film, theatre, music, etc is full of 'creative' people, and lets face it - film, theatre, and music is fun,

 

Yes, getting up at 5:30 am for my 12 hour directing shift, it's so much FUN!!! Yipeeee!

 

Of course we all do it because we love it. What's interesting in film, as David alluded to earlier, one can't expect a grip or electric to work for free, whilst a production designer might.

 

Why? Well loading a truck is not "fun," therefore said person needs to be paid. Being a production designer is lots of fun, therefore they can work for free. :)

 

R,

[George Ebersole]

 

 

The music industry?

 

Gold mining? :)

[Bruce Greene]

I once shot a short film for free. I insisted that I ... not get paid, I donated the camera and a few lights, but I told the producer that my focus puller and lighting helper would need to be paid.

 

I haven't worked with this director again, but the connection resulted in my daughter establishing a career at a major network. That was worth way more than any pay I might have received for a week's work :)

 

Recently, I helped out a friend on a personal project. I assumed I was working for free. I was quite surprised when a check came in the mail! It was not much, but felt good to be appreciated.

[Landon D. Parks]

Just add onto what I said earlier... We also need to keep things is perspective here. There are no real 'professionals' asking other professionals to work for free. In general, the only place you'll find 'free' work on 'deferred pay' is in the world of independent film from new filmmakers - amateurs. Generally, the people who respond are also amateurs. Because the film industry is so closed-off to newcomers, working for free for other amateurs is really your main way of getting in the door.

 

There is also the awe and excitement factor. For example, if Steven Spielberg said to me: Landon, will you come work as my assistant for no money - word 16 hours days? I'd tell him yes. If McDonalds ask me to flip burgers for them with no pay - I'd say no. Why? Because flipping burgers isn't any fun. Working next to Spielberg would be - long hours or not.

 

So in reality, we need to keep things in perspective here. Professionals are generally not working for free, and very few professionals are asking others to work for free. It's amateurs asking other amateurs, which I'm fine with, so long as both parties understand what it means to work for free. It's really no different than Interns hoping to get a coveted job, or community theatre actors and crew hoping to use that to build a resume for professional work.

 

The key word here is amateur. Amateurs work for free in film, music, theatre, and corporate settings because those free hours can open up paid doors for you. Interning at McDonalds flipping burgers is not only not fun, but not going to lead to any lucrative jobs. Like I said earlier, think of the old-style apprenticeship to see how this classically works.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Landon D. Parks]

 

Yes, getting up at 5:30 am for my 12 hour directing shift, it's so much FUN!!! Yipeeee!

 

Of course we all do it because we love it. What's interesting in film, as David alluded to earlier, one can't expect a grip or electric to work for free, whilst a production designer might.

 

Why? Well loading a truck is not "fun," therefore said person needs to be paid. Being a production designer is lots of fun, therefore they can work for free. :)

 

Filmmakers tend to make their movies for two reasons: money or love. Those that do it because they have a story to tell will do it no matter if they can pay themselves or not. Not saying they shouldn't be paid - I'm all for fair wages. Occasionally a person can both due it for the money and the love - those are the lucky ones.

 

I also agree with your second and third points. In reality, a grip should not have to work for free because he is not really partaking in any of the 'fun' part of filmmaking that being in the creative or production team offers. However, as I mentioned earlier, the film industry, even for grips, gaffers, and production assistants is almost impossible to get paid work for without previous experience or connections. It's a catch 22 issue.

 

Maybe if we tried to find a way to make the industry more open to new applicants, there would be no need for film interns.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Guest]

Maybe if we tried to find a way to make the industry more open to new applicants, there would be no need for film interns.

 

Here's the deal, name one other industry that builds massive walls and gates around their headquarters the way the Hollywood studios do. Drive around LA, all the studios are like fortresses. It's really a sight to see.

 

I'll bet not even Apple HQ has a massive wall built completely around it. Easy access to GM's HQ in Detroit. I'm sure even the Walmart HQ in Arkansas does not have a Hollywood style wall around it.

 

So the studios send one very resounding message to the rest of the world......GET OUT! AND STAY OUT!!!!

 

R,

[Landon D. Parks]

Been to Hollywood and know exactly what you mean... Just the other day I walked right into the headquarters of Proctor & Gamble located downtown in a giant 40 story, two-tower building, yes - Proctor & Gamble. No walls, but a very friendly doorman who opened the door for me. Hollywood studios do not have that level of courtesy. At all. I remember when visiting LA, and friend took me down to Hollywood to oogle at the studios. Prisons look more inviting and I didn't see anything that impressed me from the outside. Inside might have been nice, but I don't think the security guard would have let me through the chain link / barbed wire fence.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Kenny N Suleimanagich]

I have to disagree about the solely "amateur" aspect of deferred pay. I work a lot in documentary, which is generally a very low-budget and spec-based affair (unless it's something like Frontline or another network-commissioned piece). The person I shot for had a lead cinematographer who himself had a documentary that won two festivals and got distribution. In addition to having a DP on deferred pay, he also had sound mixer and editorial assistant. Granted, he has sold several documentaries to TV in the past nevertheless, the relationship and agreement was such that all payment would be deferred upon sale of the finished product.

 

In other instances when I have worked for free, it was people getting their start on a first project. I still donate time and equipment to situations like that. Especially if they're shooting on film, where my 416 can be of service. It's definitely case by case. If I'm doing an ultra-low budget music video or doc and have to ask a favor, I'll generally get that person a decently paying gig on referral.