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Is there a new generation of camera techs?


Heikki Repo

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I don't post much but this topic is interesting to me because the mindset is mirrored in another market close to film. Analog audio.

 

Tyler

 

This

 

It really sounds like the new generation of motion picture film camera owners don't appreciate/respect/understand the engineering and precision that went into them because they bought them at bargain prices

 

This

 

what sort of fool would undertake the years long training to master the repair and maintenance of obsolete equipment? There's simply no future in it.

 

And This

 

So making a living off of repairing film cameras is a "dead business model" so it's time to let young people step in so they can also not make a living off of doing it? And that's the better business model, one that doesn't work any better, it's just that young people maybe can do the work in between their hours working at Starbucks while living in their parent's basement?

 

 

"young people are out making movies and in their spare time learn how to do service"

 

Your idea of how things should work are a fantasy and unrealistic.

 

Logistically how would this online community of knowledge work? You get some info on what you think the problem is with your camera and begin to open her up, end up damaging something else or the issue isn't what you thought, and then revert to the online community for assistance. Someone chimes in that they have experience with your new problem but you'll have to send the camera to them or purchase a few items to help facilitate their remotely helping you perform the task, via the Internet. Turns out you can't afford the items needed or don't want to purchase them, for what could be a one time use, and besides, this guy already has the equipment. Plus the money is better spent on film for another camera, so you send the camera off to them for repair. They get to it in their spare time from shooting a film and tell you that what was initially thought as a mechanical problem is an electronic problem and outside their skill set. But there is a guy in the online community that knows electronics, so lets send it to him. Turns out this guy hasn't got time to mess with your camera for a few days, which turns into weeks, because he's out making money at a more lucrative job. Finally he gets a break from getting rich and tears into your camera, corrects the problem and puts it back together. But because he knows nothing about optical paths, or doesn't have the equipment to perform proper alignment, there's a new problem, let's say your FFD is out, which you don't figure out until you've shot a 100' of film, and maybe had transferred. Then off to somebody else or an audible screw it.

 

Because this scenario is a failure, unless all camera techs are gone, or you get tired of getting ripped off, the only other option would be for every camera owner to purchase every piece of equipment needed to repair and maintain their camera. Then they still need to learn how to use the tools and perform the tasks, in between their writing, pre-pro, freelance etc.

 

Look at the fluidity of the process and the reliability. This is why service houses had several techs all co-located with quick access to the gear and equipment needed to timely, efficiently and effectively carry out the repair and service of, what at the time, was considered a highly complicated electronic and mechanical marriage of components. Plus they could absorb the cost of test equipment and tools better than Joe. Just because this stuff is considered old tech does not detract from its complex engineering and unfortunately the mindset is 'how hard can it be'. It's not hard with proper training, tools and test equipment which are not free.

I'm not saying that the training required to perform service of these cameras is only limited to a select few. But anybody can half ass anything. A couple of years ago I was offered the opportunity to spend 3 months training on the west coast with a certain Arriflex technician, but due to my personal situation at the time it wasn't possible and I regretted that, not because of the poop ton of money that was missed out on, but because I love film cameras and I recognized the inevitable. This guy didn't know me but for the hour I talked to him on the phone. When I asked why it was difficult to find someone to take the reins he said there's no money in it and the younger generation doesn't seem to have the interest in the old. He had even offered to sell at greatly reduced prices the majority of his tooling and equipment to me. It stands to reason that this same offer was given to others with no takers.

 

This doesn't even touch on manufacturing of obsolete or difficult to obtain mechanical parts. Manual mills, CNC's, lathes, injection molding machines, an EDM or you can purchase a mold for a couple or three grand, tooling, facility and so on. You're not making these parts on your handy drill press or hobby lathe in your garage and you're definitely not making reliable parts on a prosumer 3D printer. And you being 'poor' means you're not making them period.

 

These young filmmakers you refer to are not the reliable source that you're making them out to be.

 

I'm a machinist with a film degree, the film degree came first, and I've been dealing with filmmakers of all ages for the past 11 years. In addition to film equipment, I manufacture obsolete mechanical parts for audio technicians repairing and servicing analog audio equipment, so this mindset isn't new. It just doesn't work. There are people who will continue the service of working on film cameras. For the majority of filmmakers the camera in need of repair will go to a trained and experienced technician.

 

Please don't misinterpret this as a challenge for you to prove anybody wrong. If you pursue to embrace, what boils down to a nonsensical approach to maintaining and repairing motion picture film cameras, you'll always be able to come back and re read this thread. Actually why don't you become an experienced film camera technician? You've mentioned working on them before. Why don't you fill the void of the inexpensive camera repair technician?

Edited by Seth C King
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It may very well happen that film camera repair devolves into something like the enthusiasts who repair steam engines for trains, usually retired folks with mechanical experience. I just wouldn't call that a viable business model but it certainly is one possible solution in the future. Or it may be a side repair business for someone who normally fixes, I don't know, watches and sewing machines, though that's not a guarantee that they would charge little for such work.

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Your idea of how things should work are a fantasy and unrealistic.

That's the mentality that needs to change. There is no magic. I've serviced dozens of film cameras and never had a problem. Yes, it's probably nice to have the right tools, but I can invent/design tools for situations that I can't figure out on my own and there are people who are FAR more advanced then I am, who would do the same thing if they only could.

 

Logistically how would this online community of knowledge work?

It would start with training videos on basic problems and how to solve them.

 

It would then be a list of how to find parts or make them yourself, without going to the manufacturer.

 

We'd also have tool rentals for people to borrow the right tools for the job.

 

Yes, more complicated problems would require sending a camera in and having someone with more experience go through it. They don't need to be an expert or professional technician, they just need to be someone with the experience level necessary to diagnose. Anyone with a service manual can diagnose problems, it's all about finding solutions and that in a lot of cases, means parts.

 

Analog audio gear is a slightly different business because unlike cameras, there are FAR more wear items on audio gear AND there isn't a professional level market anymore. Plus, many more electronics that need to be working at their optimal level for the device to sound good, where a film camera just needs to run at a constant speed. I spent a decade servicing equipment when I was working in broadcasting, so I've re-built Otari's and Studer 1/4" half track machines. It's tricky, time consuming work diagnosing the littlest of issue and solving them. Plus all the wear parts, which are a constant problem, even on direct drive machines. Plus, people who use Analog audio equipment are not the same people who shoot film. In fact, most filmmakers who shoot film embrace digital technology outside of the acquisition process. Being sort of an audiophile, I know that part of the industry ok and most of those people have money and will spend it to keep their machines working. There is a pretty big market right now on re-built (retro) reel to reel machines, but the pricing is exorbitant for something that isn't necessarily completely re-built.

 

My concern is the simple fact, we don't have new professional level cameras being made, so the only cameras that will exist, are the one's that currently exist. This means, people WITH money, can literally scoop up every camera they can find and hold on to them as parts units. This means less and less units will be available, all because people don't have the knowledge to fix things since it's been kept a secret all these years.

 

Starting a community around this preservation, making servicing your own camera easy through the selling of pre-made service kits specifically made for each model and rental equipment for calibration purposes. This model will work and it's exactly what the Ducati motorcycle community did when the dealerships raised the pricing. People banded together and started an in-expensive tool/maintenance rental company and they don't make a lot of money, but they help people with problems the right way, by putting the power in their own hands and taking it away from the dealerships, who are too busy working on warranty problems and new bikes to help with the old ones anyway.

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Are you talking about this for consumer Super 8 and 16mm cameras, maybe some higher end cameras, or professional 16 and 35mm cameras?

 

Regardless of which, you really didn't answer anything. You have no plan of action for initiating this in a real world scenario, you're just restating what you'd like to see happen and the majority of this is contingent on the end users ability to competently perform the task. Who will the user send their camera to in the event they feel they're not up to the challenge half way into a repair? You? At this point you're the only one on here willing to do repair service for nothing or at least next to nothing.

 

I went to the Ducati website you mentioned and it looks like a pretty straightforward idea and very helpful for motorcycles and their owners. But it's odd that you'd rather compare a service model geared towards motorcycles and say it would work for film camera repair but basically dismiss analog audio as slightly different because the users are not the same as film users. They're using older mechanical and electronic technology, for entertainment and production purposes, that inevitably will need repair. Which one is not like the other two?

 

In the end, just as you, I want these cameras to get the service they need, to keep them going as long as possible.

 

So lets see your version for film cameras? What tool packages are you planning to put together and how are you obtaining the specifics on the proper planning of these packages, have you got a price list for package rental and deposit? How about instructions on the individual points to be inspected, serviced or repaired? Basic contingency plans? Work out the details, attempt implementation in a controlled scenario and see what goes wrong. Hell I'll do the dry run with you, but it better not be half assed. I've got in mind a basic CLA of my SRII and I have no specialty tools.

 

Let me know when you're ready

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It will be a couple of years. I need to find some funding first and get the educational side functional before I even contemplate doing anything with cameras. My three year business plan puts us in a facility at the end of the third year. If things go my way, this may happen.

 

To answer your question, problems we could not solve, we would pay a professional local to come in and resolve them. I live in Hollywood and know a few techs who would charge an hourly rate.

 

We would focus on a few particular cameras, SR, LTR/XTR, BL3/4, arri 3, 2c, etc.. Build packages for 6 cameras. Tools, cleaning kits, belt kits, plastic parts, etc. Each kit would have standard wear item service parts. Whatever you use, we would bill you for on returning of the kit. You could of course add items to your cart if you already diagnosed the problem.

 

But again, it would only be for people who know something about mechanics and electronics and have some experience, not for lay people. Anyone who hasn't already tinkered, most likely won't tinker. A training video won't help someone enough, it just won't. It's an advanced situation and it will only be available for those people.

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"and there are people who are FAR more advanced then I am, who would do the same thing if they only could"

 

This doesn't make sense. Why can they not do it?

Ohh because the resources don't exist. You need things like service manuals.

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.. I've serviced dozens of film cameras and never had a problem. Yes, it's probably nice to have the right tools, but I can invent/design tools for situations that I can't figure out on my own..

 

I'm sorry Tyler, but this sort of statement just proves to me (again) that you don't know what you're talking about. It's just witless bragging. You've "serviced dozens of film cameras"? How did you check that the ground glass depth exactly matched the film plane? That the flange depth was correct and parallel? That the mag take-up tensions were within tolerance? That the current draw was right for the load? Did you even check any of these things, the most basic first steps in a service? You already need a collimator, custom depth and tension gauges, a power supply, knowledge of the correct camera specs. This is before you even start to disassemble anything.

 

Anyone can pull something apart, squirt some oil where they think it's needed and put it back together. That's not a service.

 

 

Anyone with a service manual can diagnose problems, it's all about finding solutions and that in a lot of cases, means parts.

 

Your concept of a camera "service manual" is a fantasy. I often get asked about service manuals by people who think there is a magic instruction book that will teach them everything they need to know about servicing their camera. In most cases, there wasn't a service manual, just exploded parts lists, folders of electrical schematics, and perhaps basic instructions for simple procedures like take-up tension adjustment or swapping out gates. Everything else was learnt at a manufacturer's service demonstration, passed on by experts, or gleaned over years of practical experience. The manufacturer's demonstrations were aimed at technicians who already knew about camera maintenance and had access to the requisite tools, instruments and jigs. It's not rocket science, but it's very easy to cause misalignments or wiring damage or some other oversight that can lead to subpar image quality, premature wear or sudden system failure if you're not already competent. Diagnosing the causes of something like excessive noise or an intermittent fault is extremely difficult without a lot of experience. And every camera is different.

 

The most comprehensive service literature I have is for Bolex, partly because they were very well organised but mainly because simpler systems are easier to describe. But even with Bolex there are lots of unexplained procedures, and tricks only learned from experience. The procedures that are explained always require at least one or more specialised jigs or tools, making it pretty meaningless without them.

 

I'm certainly not against passing on information. I've tried to do so on this site and on my cinetinker blog with more basic cameras that don't need much in the way of specific tooling or knowledge. I very seriously thought about describing some higher-end camera service procedures, but quickly realised that it was too hard without the experience, tools and test instruments that a professional has access to. And I didn't want to rob a livelihood from the few technicians still making a living from this knowledge. Most pertinently I've also learned from nearly 20 years of working in rental houses that the worst damage isn't caused by wear and tear but by incompetent attempts at service and repair.

 

My suggestion is this: you can now buy what were extremely expensive cameras for a tiny fraction of what they cost only 10 years ago. Hooray!

Now support the few people left who can keep those cameras running by getting them professionally serviced. The cost is not exorbitant compared to the value gained, the security of knowing you have gear that won't fail on the job and will give the best results that the medium can give. The cameras will last longer, and the rental houses or repair facilities that you support might continue to employ the skilled people who can do the work. And who knows, maybe some younger people employed at the same places might pick up some knowledge that would otherwise be lost.

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Thanks to Dom for saying this. But why should he need to. Nothing that Tyler has ever said suggests that he is competent to service film cameras. There is some wierd, delusional posturing going on. It is very undermining to what the forum could be. Personally, I wish he would just shut the f--k up. But he won't. He normally gets back up like an eager puppy, wagging his tail, pretending as if he just won the debate.

Edited by Gregg MacPherson
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Why do you talk about me in the 3rd person like your talking behind my back and I'm not around? Also, who do you think you are telling me to shut the F up?

 

What I don't understand is why you guys give two shits what I do and how I do it? Do you really think threatening me and putting ME and my skills down is somehow going to thwart my companies forward momentum? For gosh sakes, if I do it right, you will benefit heavily by getting the parts you need for MUCH less then you currently buy them for. So if anything, you should be appreciative someone is trying to make a difference and CHANGE the paradigm. I have zero interest in starting a business repairing equipment. All we're doing is giving the owners of certain equipment the power to keep those pieces of equipment running forever. All I want to do is make movies and educate youth on shooting with motion picture film. So most of my company will be run by like minded industry professionals, not me. We already have a bitchin' staff lined up for 2017 after our first big fundraiser.

 

I already have designs in place for calibrating and aligning ground glass and gates. Things like motor and take up torque are VERY easy to deal with. We would be building specific tools for each camera as well, thus generic tools that maybe hard to read, wouldn't exist. Each tool will have the appropriate numbers for that camera etched into them, so all the operator has to do is install the tool and follow the service manual that WE make. Yes, we will be writing our manuals as nothing like what we're attempting to do has been done previously when it comes to film cameras.

 

Our website will contain basic video tutorials to educate people on the job and if they feel it's too hard or not. Then if people wish to go ahead with doing the service themselves, they will login to a system that allows them to select options. The complete service kit will come with the drivers and calibration/alignment tools. They can also select a deluxe kit, which comes with some of the common wear items. The service kits are rented for a nominal fee and the parts are only charged when the kit is returned, though the customers credit card will be charged for the full amount if the kit is not returned. We would include things like drive belts, plastic drive gears, rubber spacers and expendables like grease and oil. Whatever the consumer uses will be charged once the kit is returned. If the consumer wants to buy the entire kit, that's another option as well, tho much more expensive.

 

We will be making a few of our own parts since we will focus on only a few very specific cameras. Things like drive belts will be cut from larger belts, bought at wholesale pricing. Gears like the drive gear in the Arri SR camera, will be made and sold for very low prices. Obviously initially we will focus on standard wear items, but eventually expand into producing our own replacement parts if need be. People have already agreed to donate spare time to this project for a tax write-off and deliver us parts which we can sell for practically nothing. Parts will be made based on specifications from service manuals and/or finding new parts and copying them. Reverse engineering mostly everything and since the manufacturers no longer support the cameras, there is no licensing issues what so ever. The eventual hope is to duplicate entire camera systems from the ground up, so if someone DOES want a brand new XYZ camera, we could theoretically make one. That's a tall order, but in 10 years it MAY be a possibility if the people I'm working with, are as dedicated as I am... only time will tell.

 

Again, it will take me around three years to get this off the ground. It will also take the involvement of several other technically minded people who again, are willing to donate their spare time to a great cause. I already have many ex-rental house bench techs excited to start working on this project. I already have some great ideas for new/updated designs to video taps and sound proofing, thanks to my engineering friends.

 

My goal is to have a sustainable company in 5 years and start a spin-off company which will make all-new cameras and projectors, crowd funded by people who want them. I have some excellent designs using new manufacturing processes which will reduce the weight/size and complexity of current gear. Plus, because the whole project is open source, we will have gobs of parts available for a tiny bit over what it costs us to make them.

 

Us filmmakers are ready to take the reigns away from the big camera manufacturers and put them into our hands. Nobody is going to prevent us from doing that, especially someone on an internet forum.

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Tyler, you should meet with Arri NY and talk to their main cine camera tech...can't remember his name at the moment but he fixed an SR1 main board for me a few years ago. He/they could certainly give you the lay of the land as far as parts and methods for keeping those cameras going. While Arri is focused on digital cameras, there's still a big part of that company that will always love film cameras and they are quite nostalgic for it. They may be able to tell you about a secret horde of parts somewhere or better yet, do a video or two for you on camera maintenance.

 

Love the plan. Undoubtedly a difficult road but it would be invaluable to filmmakers. I would expect whatever is left of the camera makers to support it as well.

 

While supporting a do-it-yourself idea is great, there will be many more filmmakers that would benefit from a full service shop at reasonable prices...send you the camera and have it come back purring like new. Even offer a "maintenance plan" where you send in a camera once a year and it's tuned up. In that regard you could almost act like an agency connecting camera owners with talented repair techs, allowing these techs to work when they have time available and make some extra money...almost like Uber for camera techs. The details would be difficult but what a great way to get those ex-rental techs benefiting from their massive knowledge.

 

Good luck, and keep us updated on progress!

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Thanks guys! That would be cool to find someone who isn't so busy servicing stuff. I've been told the name of the top Arri guy here in LA several times, but I've been told he's difficult to get in touch with. I'm going to have a meeting with the owner of Abel soon, they are the Aaton importer and I want to see if we can get a letter to Aaton and explain what we're doing. One of my business partners is actually in France for the next two months, I was really hoping to have her go meet the guys at Aaton.

 

Honestly if I had it my own way, I'd just work with Aaton for the time being. Arri kinda scares me because they're SO electronic.

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Tyler professes to have serviced dozens of film cameras, but from what he has written recently on the forum I don't know if he has ever serviced even one. I think Dom is right, that Tyler does not know what a film camera service is. I find Tyler's delusional posturing on this quite repulsive, and I don't think one needs to be specialy qualified to wish that he would shut the ---- up.

 

Sofar I hadn't thought or commented on the so called business model that Tyler is developing. Turning to that, it's problematic that the founder grossly missrepresents himself. Further, Tyler is on record on the forum as saying that maintenance records are unnecessary and that only fools bother to have their cameras serviced. We should just use them untill there is a problem and then flick them on eBay. Maybe this is morphing into....fiddle with your own camera, create a problem, the flick it on eBay. I think that's what he did with his Movicam. Now this sad practice may become popular.

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I'd like to appologize to Tyler for putting my opinions so rudely.

Aside from that, there are some important factual issues worth arguing about. People should not misrepresent themselves.

 

Maybe someone like Dom can pick that up. He's more polite than me.

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@ JD,

My appology was sincere. We (I) should try not to be so rude on the forum.

 

Whether people are misrepresenting themselves and whether they should be allowed to on the forum is a separate issue. Not fun.

But JD, you seem brave, maybe you can unmuddle that.

 

@ Satsuki.

Probably not. But unless some common sense manifest very quickly on this thread I may just step out of the room so to speak.

Edited by Gregg MacPherson
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Proposal: Everybody thinking she or he is a camera tech describes her/his situation in short. May I begin?

 

I closed my workshop June 2014. Sold a few machines but kept the Schäublin 13 together with accessories and tools. Things are now in storage. I want to install anew and work. For the time being I do stuff at home.

 

Equipment: milling machine, work benches, vices, hand tools, measuring instruments from simple rules over calipers and micrometers and dial gauges to gauge blocks and an autocollimator only lately recalibrated in Leicester, England. Common and less common wrenches and spanners and more things.

 

I have learnt the trade of a mechnician, they call it Polymechanic here since 2009, with emphasis on CNC turning. The first half of the apprenticeship is “Stiften” which is the process of preparing bores for dowels, then filing and tapping and many more things. We had a course offered on blacksmithing. I did that, brazing, too. I can solder, scrape, know about casting, and did some grinding, flat and round. I have worked in the industry on some of the oldest still used CNC lathes, a terrible Leadwell as well as an even worse Wasino, sticky Colchester and so on. Last job was as jumper with a place full of Swiss style lathes, about 50 noisy cam actuated ones and another 50 CNC lathes from small screw cutters to Citizen M32s with 9 axes.

 

I have intimate knowledge of all Paillard-Bolex cameras except the Super-8 models. Ciné-Kodak Special, Revere 101/103, Bell & Howell Filmo 16, Eyemo, Filmo Eights are familiar. Can cope with Eumig C 16, Beaulieu Reflex 16, Arriflex 16. A Bell & Howell 2709 or a Mitchell wouldn’t throw me off track. A friend of mine has restored two 2709, one for himself, one to order, and we are constantly in touch exchanging opinions on this and that. He also restored a french lathe from the 1920s, I overhauled a Debrie Matipo from 1921. We used both of them. While I was a professional projectionist he was a professional retoucher.

 

A special interest of mine lies on the pioneers, Le Prince, LeRoy, Démény, Acres, Melbourne-Cooper, Newman, Amet, Dickson, Lauste, Green, Debrie, Williamson.

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That would be doing wrong the old house although I understand your point of doubling the capacity. One would have to displace the drive cog in the shutter body and drill a new bore in the main shaft, not too big an adventure were there not some gears . . .

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That would be doing wrong the old house although I understand your point of doubling the capacity. One would have to displace the drive cog in the shutter body and drill a new bore in the main shaft, not too big an adventure were there not some gears . . .

 

Yes, I also wish sellers didn't think they were made from gold plated diamonds. But that's another story all together.

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