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Is film cost effective?


Max Field

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Arguments can easily be made on either side, but I would agree that for 35mm film to cost the same or cheaper you'd probably be in the medium to large budget range. Super 16 is an excellent choice for small, low budget features but it will almost always cost more. The question is if the aesthetic warrants the extra cost for a particular film and that your DP and team is comfortable working in film which seems to be getting harder these days.

 

That said, here's an interesting article Kodak shared on Facebook...

 

The Ripple Effects of Shooting Film: Why Using 35mm for Outlaws and Angels Made Unexpected Financial Sense

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That was a really good read thanks, Will.

Re the original question. Isn't it a bit like asking how long is a piece of string? Inviting generalized answers that don't have context?

 

A better question would be, are there projects where film can be cost effective. So then, looking at how film can be cost effective or not for particular kinds of projects becomes very interesting and usefull.

 

I don't think it helps that most people have a very normalized sense of what a film is, or what it could be, creatively, aesthetically, formally, and how it could be or should be made.

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What that outlaws and angels article points out, it something a lot of people don't discuss when doing a film v digital debate.

 

It's expensive to make digital look like film. So if you WANT that filmic, non-digital look, all of a sudden you're spending quite a bit of money in labor time to create it in post, if you originate on digital.

 

All of that post budget could be pushed towards originating on film and once you realize that good film camera packages are less expensive to rent then like digital packages, a lot of the "expense" of film starts to become a wash.

 

As I've stated a few times on the forum, the price point where it makes sense to shoot film on a narrative feature of some length, is around 250 - 300k. Much under 250k and the cost of film starts to push a few critical things out of your budgets range. It absolutely can be done, but at that point you're either committing to a very short production schedule, very few locations, no major actors, low crew pay and very little money for post/distribution. The absolutely lowest bottom of the barrel 24 day budget (to allow for creative freedom on set) I've been able to build, even on S16, where people are being paid reasonably (so they don't feel abused, with $45k just for P&A, is around $410k. You can easily make a half million dollar movie on S35mm, very, very easily.

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In the 80s I watched Stranger Than Paradise with my art school friends. It was a revelation. A thing contrary to the expected. But perhaps the exceptions to the rule are inevitable? So much was possible. And it looked like didn't require a lot of resource.

 

Assuming (if one could) that the fact of Stranger than Paradise had not already been digested by film culture, do we think it would be any more difficult or expensive to make today, in purely practical terms. I'm sure some will think it could be made for 1m in 18 days, but isn't this a mistake in the thinking.

 

People facinated by modern , mainstream film culture, commonly just do not see what is possible. It's like a pair of blinkers. And, if they ever arrive at a safe point towards success, they will say, those blinkers are a nescessity, unavoidable.

 

And yet, those probing, receptive intellects that occasionally scour the film festivals etc for the new, the challenging, the meaningfull and provocative, are looking in another direction.

 

So many people have succeeded by making money, but is it a meaningfull distinction, when looking in summary, at ones life. I think no, but making art, even a modest but influential piece can be meaningfull.

 

For those born after Stranger Than Paradise was made, etc....It is up on Youtube I think, or on streaming sites like...

http://www.watchfree.to/watch-d9c-Stranger-Than-Paradise-movie-online-free-putlocker.html

Edited by Gregg MacPherson
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There are two ways to go as a filmmaker... make "art" and maybe after 30 years of being broke, figure out how to bridge that gap between "mainstream" and "art". OR you can focus on easier/simpler ways to make "mainstream". Play the "mainstream" game and maybe after a few tries, you've got a career and then you can make anything you want.

 

I live in Hollywood, you can't get more mainstream then this. If I lived in Europe, I'd absolutely think differently. Yet, the only thing that I think of on a regular basis is how people will see my movie, rather then IF they will see it. HOW is the big separation between "art" and "mainstream" because lets face it, the vast majority of "art" movies aren't seen by the public. Also, unlike painting or photographic art, the art cinema community is not as generous with their money. You can't make a product and expect a fan to buy into it. Mainstream products, for better or worse, target general audiences in a way, which if done properly, can be reciprocal. People fund low-budget projects they enjoy watching, which is the "new" crowd funding culture we see today.

 

So yes I agree, you can make a modest and influential piece for low-budget, but who will see it? Your family? Your friends? A few people who accidentally click on it online or pick it up in the $4.99 bin at Walmart? Maybe all that matters is you accomplished something?

 

Today, (thanks to digital technology) it's harder then ever for your little film to stand out in a crowd. As a filmmaker, your "job" isn't to make products anymore, it's to market what you plan on doing months, maybe even years before you do it. Build a fan base before you even know what you have and to do that, you've gotta have something people WANT to see. This is unfortunately the truth of the matter, whether you look at it from the perspective of a random viewer or a businessman investing in your product, it's really no different. All people want in the long run is to make money off YOUR product and if you do all the leg work for free, there is a good chance they may take a gamble on the audience you've built up.

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There are two ways to go as a filmmaker...

I think this might be a good example of the kind of reductive thinking that Gregg is hinting at..

 

There are always more than two ways to go somewhere or do something.

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Tyler,

 

Pardon me for once again raising the subject of your misuse of 'Then' when you mean 'Than', but I feel it's worth reminding you that even though you apparently don't care ("Hey, welcome to the internet"), there are many forum members who don't have English as a first language, and I'm sure they would be grateful if those of us who do speak English used our language properly.

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I have another option, just don't read my posts... how about that?

Sadly, that wouldn't solve the problem. It's interesting that that should be your attitude toward being politely corrected, as it seems to characterize most of your responses when challenged. Hardly the most productive attitude for an 'Educator' to take.

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Sadly, that wouldn't solve the problem. It's interesting that that should be your attitude toward being politely corrected, as it seems to characterize most of your responses when challenged. Hardly the most productive attitude for an 'Educator' to take.

Stuart, your comments on this matter are unwelcome and unnecessary to the forum. Every single person on this forum (or internet for that matter) makes basic grammar and spelling mistakes, even you. There is nothing productive in point them out repeatedly, it makes you nothing more then a troll and bully, as your comments add noting to the topic at hand.

 

I have tried to ignore you, but next time you derail a thread due to grammar issues, I will have no choice but to report you to the admin. That's how "educators" deal with bad students.

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Tyler,

 

These forums are read by many, many people, of all nationalities. The subjects we talk about are often highly technical, with many esoteric terms which may or may not translate well into other languages. There is also much misinformation floating around the internet, which we must all take to care not to propagate, and to correct when we can. These forums represent a valuable archive of information which may be accessed many years from now. For all these reasons and more, we should be very careful, both to research the ideas and information that we write about, and to be as correct as possible in how we write it.

 

I am of course aware that many people, myself included, make grammatical errors from time to time, but knowing that, should we not seek to correct it? I'm sorry if you feel bullied, that was not my intention. As an educator, I'm sure that you can understand the need for accuracy and clarity, particularly when we know that our comments may be read by those for whom English is a second language.

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I understand your concern and appreciate you wanting to keep this place as "tidy" as possible.

 

Unfortunately, that will never happen. It doesn't matter how much you jump up and down. It doesn't matter how many times people edit their posts. In the end, we are all posting on our spare time for fun. Mistakes happen and if we constantly dwell on them, if we constantly try to make everything we do or say perfect, there won't be time for anything else.

 

I don't make grammar or spelling mistakes because I know better. I make them because I don't know better. I'm a product of the 21st century American public school system. I never learned my own language very well and honestly, neither have very many other people. So it's not like what you read here is just laziness, it's just not knowing. Once you've embedded poor skills, it's very hard to re-learn. I have tried numerous times, but have failed. In my eyes, if the point gets across, there is no reason to go any further. This forum is not an educational forum on the english language, we are artists and likewise, many of us have spent our lives focused on artistic things, instead of areas (like language) which perhaps, aren't so beneficial to perfect. Our language is visual and I'd rather focus on that, then be constantly berated about simple, unimportant things which have zero bearing on an opinion which is trying to be expressed. You should be thankful, younger people like myself, don't use slang on forums, because we sure as heck do on other internet services.

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I don't think that repeated polite complaints about ones spelling etc are worthy of complaint to Tim.

 

I do think that misrepresenting oneself on the forum is worthy of complaint.

I do think that forcefully presenting erroneous stuff, opinion and non facts, as fact, in technical threads, is worthy of complaint.

I do think that these things present a risk to new people reading the forum later. They won't be educated, they will be mislead. This is worthy of complaint.

 

If these problematic things suddenly improved the forum might be fun again. If not, then the source of the problem should leave, or be thrown out.

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I would say, anyone who has suffered the nonsense has the right to say those things. They could be offered in complete anonymity and still be just as meaningfull.

 

One can hide behind ones achievements, or proffessed achievements or pretended achievements. But the truth of some simple things is often obvious in those things themselves. And it doesn't matter who said it.

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Gentleman the last several pages of this once informative thread have become completely derailed by personal attacks and very unprofessional behavior. I am not a moderator or anyone of importance, but please for the sake of the community can we try to salvage this or at least take it to private messages instead of airing our laundry for everyone?

 

Thanks so much. I only cask because I love this place and hate to see this sort of back and forth consume many threads.

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It's probably best if we make our arguments against an erroneous post or disagreeable opinion as concise and impersonal as possible and having done that, sit back -- if the point was made clearly enough, that should be enough.

 

I know I'm at fault sometimes at wanting to hammer a point in multiple posts as if this were some court case ("you can't handle the truth!") but anything that leads to a crumbling of the sense of community here is ultimately bad for everyone.

 

Part of the problem is tone, we all tend to reply in kind -- if someone's post is overly cranky, hostile, or disparaging of people we know and respect, then we tend to reply in kind. So a strongly expressed opinion is often followed by a strongly expressed counter-argument. We all just have to watch getting sucked into that vortex of negativity, me included.

 

If someone is wrong, then tell them that they are wrong, but don't call them names for being wrong. Just present the correction backed up with facts and then move on.

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Tyler,

 

These forums are read by many, many people, of all nationalities. The subjects we talk about are often highly technical, with many esoteric terms which may or may not translate well into other languages. There is also much misinformation floating around the internet, which we must all take to care not to propagate, and to correct when we can. These forums represent a valuable archive of information which may be accessed many years from now. For all these reasons and more, we should be very careful, both to research the ideas and information that we write about, and to be as correct as possible in how we write it.

 

I am of course aware that many people, myself included, make grammatical errors from time to time, but knowing that, should we not seek to correct it? I'm sorry if you feel bullied, that was not my intention. As an educator, I'm sure that you can understand the need for accuracy and clarity, particularly when we know that our comments may be read by those for whom English is a second language.

This is now the second or third time you are making this case and I don't understand how mistakenly using "then" instead of "than" would confuse anybody with regards to the meaning of the post. Anybody who understands English enough to know the distinction between "then" and "than" would know from the context what Tyler was trying to say (it's not like there are two separate possible meanings that make sense), and if they don't know the difference it's all the same for them regardless which word he uses.

 

I am not saying writing proper English is unimportant, but come on, is there really an issue with Tyler's postings? English is my second language, and from my perspective he is writing as good as any other native English speaker on this site (that is, much better than majority of us from other countries). Really, his grammatical accuracy is a complete non-issue from the standpoint of people understanding what he is trying to say, so you are really stretching with your argument.

 

IMO.

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I'm batting .450 on starting threads that turn into fights.

It seems like many of them do lately. I don't get it. One can post an answer to a question and others can just let it be. If someone disagrees strongly they can PM the person posting the question with a concern about the reply someone gave and correct any perceived mistakes in their PM. That doesn't always have to happen on the thread.

Edited by Michael LaVoie
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his grammatical accuracy is a complete non-issue from the standpoint of people understanding what he is trying to say

 

Your English is obviously of an excellent standard, but I don't think we should necessarily assume the same of all the other 23,000 members of this forum.

 

In any case, the post you are referring to is more of a general appeal for accuracy, clarity and precision from all of us. Both Tyler and I have said what we had to say, and I don't see any point in discussing it further.

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