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Tips for shooting a feature with an F5 and a7S mk2 together in 4K?


David Peterson

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The material in question was green screen, so the people doing the visual effects, couldn't pull a key from the converted material. They couldn't work with the raw RED files. So I had to do the clean up work in DaVinci, which works natively with RED material. It was kind of a hybrid solution, but it solved the problem and the net result looks great. Of course, when you pre-color 900 shots, it's hard to color match. So once the VFX people are done, I will get the entire project back as sequences and color balance everything.

You did say that it was the entirety of the material. Was every shot green screen? Was it the green screen that was underexposed by three stops, or the built set elements, or both?

 

VFX never work with RAW files, they always have to convert them to some flavor of 709 in order to have the color saturation to pull a key.

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Looks like the problem material was two days on a particular green screen set. The rest of the shoot was exposed properly.

 

The entire scene being shot with the camera was underexposed, not one particular element. I may have figured out what the problem was though. I was talking with one of my other friends who works at local rental house. He said some rental cameras have home made LUTs on them and perhaps they were looking at the monitor using the wrong LUT. That to me seems more logical because they would have used the scopes built into the monitor and if the HDSDI output was fixing the problem, they may have never noticed it.

 

Funny enough, I was talking with the director about it today at lunch, just for shits and giggles since you guys were so interested. The DP is one of his good friends and likewise, he's a super nice bloke. Anyway, he said they were in a hurry to light and that may have been the issue. He recognizes the problem though, I wound up getting the gig through his recommendation.

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So it was two days out of a weeks long show? Why would the LUTs suddenly change? Even if new cameras were brought in during the shoot, any decent rental house would make sure the cameras were reset to factory settings before putting them back out for rental. Even if they didn't do this, the camera assistants would have.

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Ya know, the question I didn't ask is how the shoot was structured. They may have been going to different facilities in order to save a buck or two, vs long-term rental.

 

I do know the days in question were the only two days with any problem. Since I don't have any files online right now, I can't check the camera SN, to see if it matched the other ones. Also, I do know there were two cinematographers involved, the two days in question may have been pickups.

 

I agree with you that rental houses usually reset cameras. However, this camera may have been borrowed from a friend. I don't think they would have rented one, I think it was a "package" deal, cinematographer comes with equipment. That's the way this particular director tends to work.

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"I think it was a "package" deal, cinematographer comes with equipment. That's the way this particular director tends to work."

 

Even less likely to be a LUT screw up then.. that would have to be a pretty severe off set LUT.. the DP would be able to tell straight away just from the stop he was on.. being their own gear.. I would throw out the LUT as possible cause..

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So, we've gone from a 'massive documentary shoot' which was entirely 'underexposed by at least 3 stops', to 2 days which may or may not have been underexposed due to a homebrew LUT, which, given that it was shot on RED, where User LUTs are not supported in Camera, seems unlikely. As Robin says, would not an owner/operator have been aware of his own settings?

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So long and thanks for all the fish..

No problem, you've just showed your true colors once more.

 

Alright guys, I've learned my lesson. I thought we were having a conversation, but we aren't. I'm being dragged on the seabed once more for entertainment purposes.

 

It's a real shame that's how you treat fellow filmmakers, but that's the internet I guess. I thought people who worked in this industry were above this sort of abuse.

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Hang on.. that post was way back.. that was about Sony camera,s..the never ending story..but I really did want to know how a whole film.. as you first stated was under exposed 3 stops.. and even more so that it was actually just green screen..material that was under.. if I knew the DP I would certainly be asking if that was the intent and why..

 

I dont know why your just cutting and pasting one line from days ago.. that was a totally different subject.. about codec.. and the Sony cameras,.. which we have gone over alot of times.. thats why I was bailing on that road.. without any malice at all.. its a line from hitch hikers guid to the galaxy ..

Edited by Robin R Probyn
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This thread turned out both longer and more amusing than I thought it would be :-D

 

In other somewhat more relevant news.... I found out unfortunately that the F5 we're using doesn't have 4K!!! Which kinda defeats the entire purpose of us using it :-o Otherwise we'd have gone with an URSA Mini 4.6K

 

So after a **LOT** of head banging against the wall last night I at last got it working.

 

However.... Fun fact: the free 4K workaround doesn't work if your md5 checksum is not in lower case

 

Urgh... be careful.

 

The 4k hack won't let you playback your recorded clips, and it creates weird shifts in the gamma that mean the footage won't work properly with established LUTs or ACES IDTs.

 

I'd highly recommend SR444 instead.

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Can you describe the gamma shifts? I've just completed a feature where our B camera was a F5 using the 4k hack. We had no problems with using LC-709A in camera and in dailies. We could play clips back without issue, although they play back in LOG, but I believe that is normal for Sony cameras.

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I believe it was no play back in the camera.. SDI/HDMI might be ok..although you would think the same.. but that certainly was something that Paul Ream also mentioned.. and some people reported these gamma shifts but not everyone.. and it voided the warranty ..

 

The main problem was you were stuck in a now very old version 4.. with all the advancements since.. andV8 around the corner.. and the official $1K 4K upgrade made available.. you were losing more the $1K upgrade price, being stuck in the older firmware.. Im quite surprised there are any "hacked" camera,s around still..

 

Are you sure it wasn't upgraded officially rather than the hack..?

Edited by Robin R Probyn
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Are you sure it wasn't upgraded officially rather than the hack..?

I guess it's possible we hacked an upgraded camera. Embarrassing, but certainly possible... :)

 

 

Im quite surprised there are any "hacked" camera,s around still..

There are a lot of cameras lodged at rental houses that don't always get the latest updates if their owners don't want to pay for them.

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Heres a Blurb about the paid up grade

 

The upgrade includes 4K SDI and 4K HDMI live Output, and simultaneous recording (of XAVC 4K/QFHD) and MPEG2 50Mbps 422. It also supports 4K playback, which is something that doesn’t appear to be in the F5 firmware at present, even if you try that recent 'hack' and edit that text file to enable 4K UHD recording.

 

​You didnt have the ability to record proxies with the hack either..

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I guess it's possible we hacked an upgraded camera. Embarrassing, but certainly possible... :)

 

There are a lot of cameras lodged at rental houses that don't always get the latest updates if their owners don't want to pay for them.

 

 

I didnt know that many owners have their camera,s in at rental houses...there is so many features they are lacking from V4 (for the hack) to V8 coming up.. I wouldn't think the camera would be rentable ..

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A lot of people buy a camera, and then leave it at a rental house so that it's working when they are not. Sometimes the owner doesn't buy a full package, so that camera won't have a viewfinder, just an onboard monitor, for instance, or paid upgrades won't have been done. This happens a lot at the cheaper rental houses.

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