Lenses for Arriflex

[Mark Day]

Hey guys, my Arriflex 16S only has the Arri "Standard Mount" for lenses. No bayonet. I was just curious; are there any lenses other than the those depicted in the user's manual that can be used on this camera? Also, was there ever an adapter made which would allow for the use of other lenses? It looks like one of the old ('50s - 60's) Russian Konvas cameras had the Arriflex "standard" mount in a 3 lens turret and sure enough, when I look at the rear of the lens, it does appear to be an Arriflex standard mount. I've got one 16mm Schneider lens and plan on purchasing a telephoto in the future, but for now, (and since I don't have the money for a premium lens), I'd like to maybe find a cheaper one, if that's even available.

Thanks

[James Jeffrey Cotter]

The konvas only looks like the Arri std it is not the same, the barrel is much larger diameter. You can get Kilfit adaptor to use m39 leica lenses on Arri std and bayonet. So it could also use any 39mm threaded lens as long as you deal with the 52mm flange distance for back focus. If you need lenses let me know what you need I have been cleaning out extras

[Mark Day]

Thanks! You probably save me much heartache. Yes, I will be purchasing some lenses in the near future. I will be looking for something in the 100mm range and then something around 300mm. I see a Kilfit adapter on e-Bay that I may purchase.

[Mark Day]

The konvas only looks like the Arri std it is not the same, the barrel is much larger diameter. You can get Kilfit adaptor to use m39 leica lenses on Arri std and bayonet. So it could also use any 39mm threaded lens as long as you deal with the 52mm flange distance for back focus. If you need lenses let me know what you need I have been cleaning out extras

52mm flange distance?

[Zac Fettig]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance

 

The distance from the lens mounting flange to the focal plane (where the film is) is called the flange focal distance.

 

The Arri has a 52.0mm ffd. The M39 is 28.8mm. Because it's smaller than the camera's, you'll lose at least part of (possibly all) your focal range, if the adapter doesn't have optics to compensate for it (I've never used one of the Kilfitt adapters, so I don't know). How much depends on the lens.

[Simon Wyss]

The ARRI standard mount is a bayonet mount. Bayonet or spigot stands for quick slip-in or snap-on. Other concepts are the PL mount (Positive Lock), threads, and different kinds of twist locks.

 

ARRI specifies 51,98 mm ⁺⁰_-0,01 by the way.

[Mark Day]

The Arri standard I don't believe is called bayonet mount. The lens simply slides into place. No twisting to lock it in.

[Zac Fettig]

Arri standard and Arri bayonet are slightly different. Arri bayonet mounts will take any Arri standard lenses, but not vise versa.

 

Same bore. Arri bayonet partially replaced the Arri standard (late 60s, early 70s?). They were both replaced completely by Arri PL later on (early-mid 80s?).

[Mark Day]

Well, I'm looking at a couple of cheap-ass Russian "Jupiter" lenses, just to experiment with. I'm looking at a Jupiter 12, 35mm lens and a Jupiter 8, 50mm lens on e-Bay.

[Dom Jaeger]

 

ARRI specifies 51,98 mm ⁺⁰_-0,01 by the way.

Simon, this is a camera flange depth setting, and can vary between cameras. It's not a lens specification.

 

All Arri Standard, Bayonet and PL mounted lenses are set to 52.00mm back-focus from flange to film plane at infinity.

[Gregg MacPherson]

Simon, are the camera techs onto some art or mojo that is different FFD to the manual specs? The SR and SR3 manual gives a normal FFD of 52mm and a high speed camera FFD of 51.970mm (-0.010mm).

 

I think camera techs commonly use a dial guage thet needs interpolation between the minimum units. Hats off to them (I think).

 

EDIT: I have read posts by techs who talked about placing the exposure just beneath the surface of the emulsion.

I just saw Dom's post. Dom, why do the HS models have a slightly shorter FFD?

Edited September 7, 2016 by Gregg MacPherson

[Dom Jaeger]

Dom, why do the HS models have a slightly shorter FFD?

 

I always assumed it was because the pressure plate design is different in high speed mags, allowing the film to float a little more in the gate as it flies through at high speed. So the camera flange depth is set a few hundredths of a mm shorter to accomodate for that.

[Peter Welander]

(My first post...be gentle) OK, so Arri standard lenses are supposed to mount in the bayonet mount as is often the case with a 16Sb. Now, here's my problem. When I try to mount standard lenses on my 16SR1, it doesn't always work. I have a standard mount Zeiss 10-100 that goes in very easily and locks. BUT--When I try to mount some of my older Schneiders (and not the really old ones with the weird twist-in-the-mount focus mechanism), they don't want to seat all the way in. Ditto when I try to put on an old standard mount Angie 5.9 mm. It goes in most of the way, but maybe not the last millimeter. It seems to be engaging with the tab (won't twist), but still won't fully seat.

 

Somehow I am reluctant to give it that last shove... Any ideas? Is the position of the mirror relative to the flange/mount on a 16SR different than a 16Sb? I hope I'm not hitting it. Yikes.

 

Thanks.

[Simon Wyss]

Is the position of the mirror relative to the flange/mount on a 16SR different than a 16Sb?

 

And how. With the Standard the deflection goes over the image’s longer side, its width, with the Silent Reflex is goes over its height. Or simpler: the old concept (Arriflex and Arriflex 16 S) is ground glass at the side, the younger concept (introduced by Eclair) is ground glass above.

 

[Simon Wyss]

Simon, are the camera techs onto some art or mojo that is different FFD to the manual specs?

 

No, the manufacturers are not clear enough. I have found contradictory specifications with ARRI, Paillard, Eclair, Debrie.

 

David W. Samuelson, Motion Picture Camera Data, Focal Press: Arriflex 2.047" [51,9938 mm] / 52,00 mm ^‒0,005_‒0,015.

I don’t think Samuelson made that up out of thin air.

 

OTOH we must consider that color films had thicker layer packs back in the thirties to sixties. Some films got rearranged layers, I can’t remember which at the moment.

 

And, of course, lens FFD is 52,000 mm.

[Robert Lewis]

.... so Arri standard lenses are supposed to mount in the bayonet mount as is often the case with a 16Sb. Now, here's my problem. When I try to mount standard lenses on my 16SR1, it doesn't always work. I have a standard mount Zeiss 10-100 that goes in very easily and locks. BUT--When I try to mount some of my older Schneiders (and not the really old ones with the weird twist-in-the-mount focus mechanism), they don't want to seat all the way in. Ditto when I try to put on an old standard mount Angie 5.9 mm. It goes in most of the way, but maybe not the last millimeter. It seems to be engaging with the tab (won't twist), but still won't fully seat.

 

Somehow I am reluctant to give it that last shove... Any ideas? Is the position of the mirror relative to the flange/mount on a 16SR different than a 16Sb? I hope I'm not hitting it. Yikes.

 

Yes, do be very careful Peter. This issue has been covered before. Some of the old Schneider lenses were made when older Arriflex cameras were in production, and they cannot be used with the SRI camera. There is a difference in the design of the mount on the older lenses and the mount on the newer ones and you might well notice this difference if you compare the mounts on your Zeiss 10-100 with the mount on your Schneider lens. The mirror will clear the mount on the Zeiss, but not the one on your Scheider. There is the possibility that if you start the camera with the Schneider in the mount, the mirror will be smashed. To make matters more difficult, some Schneider lenses will safely fit, and if you compare the two types, you will see that the diffference is in the shape of the "shoulder" of the mounts.

[Peter Gilabert]

I addressed that problem with my CP-16R here:

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=72367&do=findComment&comment=464244

Just only use the inching nob to test the clearance but you may be able to use them like I did.

[Peter Welander]

That looks like an interesting if somewhat drastic solution. Truth to tell, I don't think I'll try using any of the old Schneiders on my 16SR, but I would like to use the Angie 5.9. I may have to look for a genuine bayonet mount for that one, or just be happy to use it on the 16Sb.

 

It might be an interesting study to profile the back ends of some of those lenses and see how much they vary.

[Dom Jaeger]

I'm surprised the Ang 5.9 doesn't fit, all the ones I've seen worked with SRs but maybe the earliest Standard mount versions were different.