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Tyler Purcell

Tye's Sony Rant

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LogC_vs_Slog3_to_709_650x366.png

 

 

Yes this is the Sony "Alexa look " type LUT.. made to "match" Arri 709..but you can also just use the Arri 709LUT directly to Slog3 footage..

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Yes, I know, I shot it!

 

The point is that both halves of the image were actually shot on an FS7, so it demonstrates (or at least strongly suggests) two key things: Sony's Alexa-like LUT is reasonably accurate, and Log-C is within a nadger of SLog3.

 

And you're absolutely right, this thing about SLog3 being noisy is absolute horsefeathers and I have been campaigning against that little bit of misinformation for a while.

 

All log looks noisy when you don't display it right.

 

Oh, also when you insist on shooting log on 8-bit DSLRs with H.264 encoding. Like the otherwise wonderful A7 series. Shoot the damn things in 709...

 

P

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Yes, I know, I shot it!

 

The point is that both halves of the image were actually shot on an FS7, so it demonstrates (or at least strongly suggests) two key things: Sony's Alexa-like LUT is reasonably accurate, and Log-C is within a nadger of SLog3.

 

And you're absolutely right, this thing about SLog3 being noisy is absolute horsefeathers and I have been campaigning against that little bit of misinformation for a while.

 

All log looks noisy when you don't display it right.

 

Oh, also when you insist on shooting log on 8-bit DSLRs with H.264 encoding. Like the otherwise wonderful A7 series. Shoot the damn things in 709...

 

P

 

 

ah ok they were both shot Fs7.. I presumed the left was Arri.. and a very nice shot too sir..Is that Mill on your estate .. Yes 8bit LOG total non starter ..same with green screen most of the time.. no point to shoot LOG.. is it ironic that Kodak invented the Cineon curve... I believe the C or logC actually stands for Cineon..

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Blackmagic's "film" mode is reportedly pretty similar to SLog3.

 

It's really not, though. In my experience with the Ursa Mini 4K and Pocket cameras, 'film mode' seems to have higher contrast and saturation than SLog3. Perhaps it varies depending on the camera, but to me it seems more similar to the original Canon Log as found in the C300.

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I dunno back when i was rocking the pockets I used to use the Arri LogC in Resolve over all the BM stuff because it looked better, perhaps with some minor tweaks.

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I use the 3D LUT BMCC Rec709 v2 for most of my stuff and it's a good start on the pocket camera. I did try some of the SLog and CLog LUTs in the past, but they didn't do ENOUGH to the BMPCC LOG file. I found the only LUT's that work right at the blackmagic ones within DaVinci. They're very close to what the footage would have looked like if shot in Rec 709 on set. I just did a correction on a show that one camera was REC709 and one was LOG and just applying that one lut to the LOG file, balanced it almost perfectly with the REC709 shot. I had to do one minor tweak because the LOG file retained so much more color information, the REC709 capture needed some coloring to match the LOG.

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Hi there !

 

Alterity is a very important notion. We are all different from each other and we don't share the same experience ( good or bad).

Some people like Sony cameras and some people don't like Sony cameras. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

Talking about " The Crown" :

http://integrated.media/vfx-post-production-crown/

 

Talking about issues with the Sony F55 :

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/sony-f-55-so-close/

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Just one note.. the John Brawley article is almost 3 years old ..July 2014.. with version V4.. its now V8.1 and nearly all the issues he most disliked.. the main one being the lack of exposure overlay ..was implemented years ago.. there is still no picture capture in assign though..and Sony menu,s are very "Japanese" in their logic or lack thereof.. you just have to set up User page to avoid the million over pages..

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I don't know what Brawley is talking about. Again, someone who didn't go to B&H, buy a camera and learn it. This is a guy who went to a rental house and all the power to him, but the rental camera is NOT the same as a purchased camera.

 

The camera doesn't do Pro Res or Raw stock. So when he talks about the Alexa shooting 12 bit Pro Res, he's not putting apples to apples. You have to upgrade BOTH the Alexa and F55 to do "RAW" of any kind.

 

Love this quote "Sony have been making cameras for a long time but they seem to make newby mistakes like putting all the overlays in the viewfinder on TOP of the image. Alexa have a great way of keeping the image area free of clutter in their viewfinder. "

 

This is another issue that just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Ohh and global shutter isn't a deal killer. In fact, I'd rather NOT have global shutter and retain the sensitivity of the imager. Blackmagic explained all the issues Global shutter has and why Alexa and the Blackmagic higher end cameras don't have it.

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Actually you dont need to UPGRADE the F55 or even the F5 to record RAW.. its all in there.. but you need an external recorder .. R5 or the newer R7.. personally I,d rather that its separate .. like alot of camera,s.. rather than the extra $$$ you,d have to pay for the camera with it as one body.. you can rent it the times you need it.. but it is 16 bit RAW which is more than the Alexa.. as we see put to good use in "The Crown"..

 

I agree about global shutter .. the refresh rate is so high on most mid to high end camera,s it rarely is a problem.. seems in this case he chose it due alot of flash photography being used in the show.. the only time I would have liked it ,was trying to actually record "fake " flashes ..! and agree about having info outside the frame marker.. maybe one reason quite a few people have gone for the Zacuto EYE or Gratical ..

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An upgrade is ANY component that is necessary to achieve a task that doesn't come stock. If it don't come in the box stock, it's an upgrade.

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Hi there !

 

Alterity is a very important notion. We are all different from each other and we don't share the same experience ( good or bad).

Some people like Sony cameras and some people don't like Sony cameras. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

Talking about " The Crown" :

http://integrated.media/vfx-post-production-crown/

 

Talking about issues with the Sony F55 :

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/sony-f-55-so-close/

 

Just to reiterate Christian.. I dont have a problem with people having a preference .. liking a camera based on aesthetic choice ..just that its better to be based on a full under standing of the workings of the camera/codec/LOG.. rather than the results stemming from a lack there of.. thats my only point Ive being trying to make ..

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An upgrade is ANY component that is necessary to achieve a task that doesn't come stock. If it don't come in the box stock, it's an upgrade.

I would call it an option.. up grade is usually seen as improving something that already exists .. i.e. firm ware up grade .. OS upgrade.. software up grade..

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Ok "option" is fine... but it's confusing when the camera doesn't come with something so critically important.

 

 

But not many camera,s come with internal RAW recording do they.. let alone 16 bit RAW.. I would think an OLPF is more critical .. TBH.. the ability to record RAW is critical I agree, on any supposedly high end camera ..but alot of say quite high end Alexa shoots are not shot RAW.. I dont personally think its critical to have it as on board in one body function.. the R5/7 is actually the least PITA external recorder .. it clips in with no cables what so ever ,and is essentially "one" camera body.. really I personally wouldn't want it to be there there the whole time.. extra space,weight and money.. and just clip on the recorder in one minute.. when you need it.. and someone else is paying for it :)

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RED Dragon is 16 bit raw. You can get into a really decent used 6k Dragon package for around $28k, with everything you need.

 

Also, since movie theaters are 12 bit and mostly everything else is 8 bit, the mere thought of shooting over 12 bit and needing to process all that excess data, doesn't seem worth it in the long run.

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RED Dragon is 16 bit raw. You can get into a really decent used 6k Dragon package for around $28k, with everything you need.

 

Also, since movie theaters are 12 bit and mostly everything else is 8 bit, the mere thought of shooting over 12 bit and needing to process all that excess data, doesn't seem worth it in the long run.

 

 

Yes its not part of my usual shooting world at all.. but the R7 also has this new RAW (lite) codec X -OCN this is 16 bit RAW at a lower bit rate.. not much more than Pro Res HQ.. can also get higher frames rate .. 240 HD and 120 4K.. (in the F55).. its often better to record over the spec you need though.. thats sort of my point.. I dont want or need an f5/55 with RAW recording built in.. I,d rather its separate unit .. only for when I would need it.. without having to "buy" it in camera and lug it around when I dont need it..Sony have always said the F55 is a doc camera as well narrative.. I doubt anyone would push the RED dragon as a doc camera to be fair.. ..

 

Incidentally ..you might be interested in the new Sigma Cine lenses.. I had a play around with them on RED Dragon.. look pretty good to me.. and very good price level..

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CinemaDNG and Red Code are both lower bitrate then equivalent Pro Res XQ. The "modular" aspect of the Sony Raw recorder is silly when Arri, RED and Blackmagic cameras record RAW internally.

 

I was never a fan of the RED's when I first started using them because they had some odd issues, pink in the highlights and green in the blacks.

 

However, as the software was updated over the last few years, they did solve a lot of these issues. The Dragon is a very good camera, it's a real cinema camera. Again, if you're shooting professional content with a full crew, you don't need built-in audio, you don't need a filter wheel either. You also don't need an "efficient" codec like iFrame MPEG. So the "benefits" of the very ENG centric FS7/F5/F55, kinda go out the window at that point. It's certainly not a "price" vs "performance" thing either, the Dragon is a 6k camera for gosh sakes, for similar pricing to the F55 new. Sure, the Dragon is a heavy little beast, but with the right shoulder mount, it's not too bad. One of my good friends shot his first doc feature on RED and it worked great and looks fantastic. Where I may not shoot a doc on Red, it's totally doable.

 

I do understand the F55 market, there really isn't anything like it on the market for that price range. However, as I said earlier... swiss army knife cameras always suffer.

 

The Sigma glass does look interesting.

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There is much talk of what comes now from Sony as the F5/55 and F65 are getting long in the tooth .. and the F5/55 is at the end of its firmware road..

 

Will be interesting to see which way it goes.. F5/55 combine.. or F55/65 combine in some way.. maybe NAB.. and more cheaper s35 glass as Fujinon have just knocked $10K off the Cabrio !..

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John Brawley is using two? on "Queens"? If his flicker posts, and the guy I talked to at PV Dallas are to be believed. I believe that's the name of it. Its a Panavision show, and the URSA Mini looks quite comical at the end of an 11:1 zoom.

 

Still, he bought two, so I guess that's saying something.

 

Actually this was my camera package on Queen Of The South Season 2

 

A Alexa Min

B Alexa Mini

C Alexa Mini

D Alexa Plus

E Ursa Mini 4.6K

F Ursa Mini 4.6K

G Blackmagic Micro

H Blackmagic Micro

J Ursa Mini 4.6K

K Ursa Mini Pro

L Alexa Mini

N Alexa Mini

P Olympus EM1 Mark 2

R DJI Drone

 

At the end of the day, around 30% of the shots in the finished episode are Ursa Mini 4.6K. I dare anyone to pick them all out. There are many scenes that are shot only Ursa Mini 4.6K.

 

I don't know what Brawley is talking about. Again, someone who didn't go to B&H, buy a camera and learn it. This is a guy who went to a rental house and all the power to him, but the rental camera is NOT the same as a purchased camera.

The camera doesn't do Pro Res or Raw stock. So when he talks about the Alexa shooting 12 bit Pro Res, he's not putting apples to apples. You have to upgrade BOTH the Alexa and F55 to do "RAW" of any kind.

 

Love this quote "Sony have been making cameras for a long time but they seem to make newby mistakes like putting all the overlays in the viewfinder on TOP of the image. Alexa have a great way of keeping the image area free of clutter in their viewfinder. "

 

This is another issue that just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Ohh and global shutter isn't a deal killer. In fact, I'd rather NOT have global shutter and retain the sensitivity of the imager. Blackmagic explained all the issues Global shutter has and why Alexa and the Blackmagic higher end cameras don't have it.

 

Huh?

 

Sounds a bit elitist to say that not owning the camera means I don't know the camera ? Where does that logic add up ? It's been a few days since I did an F55 show but the last time I shot them was on back to back series. Two multi episodic TV series AND a feature film. That means hundreds of days with up to 4 bodies shooting 2 hours per camera per day.

 

And by the way, that's on PANAVISED F55's, where they make everything that's kind of ENG Sony and make it more film / narrative drama shooting style friendly.

 

I only went Sony because I could get 16 Bit RAW in 2K or 4K (at the time) and I didn't want to go RED 12Bit is the minimum for any drama shooting in my view. Which ProRes 444 does easily. What's not to understand about that ?

 

Re the viewfinder. I haven't looked for a while, but there wasn't way to have look-around in the sony EVF. If you want camera status it's burned over the ACTIVE recorded image area or you can choose nothing at all. Pretty big oversight in my view for V4.0 software (which is what I was using at the time). An Alexa shows you the full recorded image and then OUTSIDE of that in the EVF you get camera status.

 

JB

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Sounds a bit elitist to say that not owning the camera means I don't know the camera ? Where does that logic add up ?

What I mean is that someone buying a camera package, has to take into account far more variables then renting.

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Actually this was my camera package on Queen Of The South Season 2

 

A Alexa Min

B Alexa Mini

C Alexa Mini

D Alexa Plus

E Ursa Mini 4.6K

F Ursa Mini 4.6K

G Blackmagic Micro

H Blackmagic Micro

J Ursa Mini 4.6K

K Ursa Mini Pro

L Alexa Mini

N Alexa Mini

P Olympus EM1 Mark 2

R DJI Drone

 

At the end of the day, around 30% of the shots in the finished episode are Ursa Mini 4.6K. I dare anyone to pick them all out. There are many scenes that are shot only Ursa Mini 4.6K.

 

 

Huh?

 

Sounds a bit elitist to say that not owning the camera means I don't know the camera ? Where does that logic add up ? It's been a few days since I did an F55 show but the last time I shot them was on back to back series. Two multi episodic TV series AND a feature film. That means hundreds of days with up to 4 bodies shooting 2 hours per camera per day.

 

And by the way, that's on PANAVISED F55's, where they make everything that's kind of ENG Sony and make it more film / narrative drama shooting style friendly.

 

I only went Sony because I could get 16 Bit RAW in 2K or 4K (at the time) and I didn't want to go RED 12Bit is the minimum for any drama shooting in my view. Which ProRes 444 does easily. What's not to understand about that ?

 

Re the viewfinder. I haven't looked for a while, but there wasn't way to have look-around in the sony EVF. If you want camera status it's burned over the ACTIVE recorded image area or you can choose nothing at all. Pretty big oversight in my view for V4.0 software (which is what I was using at the time). An Alexa shows you the full recorded image and then OUTSIDE of that in the EVF you get camera status.

 

JB

 

 

As of version 9.. just released, unfortunately no out of picture/look around space EVF info.. (as the Arri has)..the OLED EVF has really been a draw back to an otherwise I feel.. really good camera ..both f5 and 55...major disappointment from the start... many owner /ops have gone with Zacuto Grat or EYE EVF,s for this reason...there is a new and improved OLED coming out in Sept.. maybe this with the new FF CineAlta due next year will have this feature..

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