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Tyler Purcell

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Making an observation and reporting a problem is totally fine. It's the leaps in logic from 'my camera equipment is malfunctioning' to 'CP2's are crap!', 'all specs are meaningless!' that people here take issue with.

I have a tendency to be dramatic, but I probably made a post right after being frustrated using the equipment. I had a shot in my mind that my little pocket camera and shitty $350 glass, could get no problem, but the expensive CP2's and Red Dragon, it was impossible to get. That's pretty frustrating... You gotta give me some slack, it was a very frustrating day.

 

I like to vent about poop that pisses me off because there is no reason for it. Zeiss had ZERO reason to make the CP2's close focus 12+ inches, they could have expanded it because the barrel diameter is so large, there is no way focusing it closer would have vignetted. I hate manufacturers that purposely build-in deficiencies so buyers will spend more money.

 

So here I am with a cheap-ass korean lens that sure, has inferior glass, but it has no problem getting the shot the CP2's couldn't get. You tell me, how FRUSTRATED would you be? At that point, I could care less how bad the glass was, I was just over-joyed I could actually finally get the shots I was looking for.

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Satsuki, .....

 

Where I agree with your comment that accuracy is important, I don't think it should trump personal opinion and feelings. ......

 

Though the comment above deserves some hilarity and ridicule, I will just say that it is up there with the most absurd and unsupportable ideas I've ever read on the forum.

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Though the comment above deserves some hilarity and ridicule, I will just say that it is up there with the most absurd and unsupportable ideas I've ever read on the forum.

That's because you have no idea what an internet forum is all about.

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"Also, if the back focus was off on any lens, you'd know right away because most of the time we're closer to infinity then we are on the other side of the scale. Anyone with a modicum of experience can put a lens on a camera, look through the viewfinder and tell if a lens has a back focus issue right away. Sure, if it's off by a few micron's, it's not a problem and likewise you'll never notice. Any back focus issue that makes the close focus work entirely different then the spec, is something you'd notice."

 

You mean something like the lens not hitting it's witness marks or reaching minimum focus, yep should have been noticed right away.

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I have a tendency to be dramatic,

 

Really? I hadn't noticed. ;)

 

I like to vent about poop that pisses me off because there is no reason for it. Zeiss had ZERO reason to make the CP2's close focus 12+ inches, they could have expanded it because the barrel diameter is so large, there is no way focusing it closer would have vignetted. I hate manufacturers that purposely build-in deficiencies so buyers will spend more money.

 

Well again, while I support your right to vent your frustrations here (and we all do it), if you keep making unsupported erroneous technical assumptions like this then you're gonna keep getting called out for it. Is that really what you want?

 

In this particular case, how exactly do you know that there are 'zero reasons' for 12" close focus on your Zeiss CP2 lens? You assume that this is a 'purposeful deficiency' in order to 'make you spend more money.' What specific evidence do you have for this claim?

 

Why not instead just say something like, 'In my experience, I wasn't able to achieve the close focus the lens spec claims - why?' Which is completely truthful, observational, and would net you some helpful responses toward fixing the problem.

 

Being a responsible forum member goes both ways - if you don't want chaos swirling around you, don't help foment it in the first place.

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Also, if the back focus was off on any lens, you'd know right away because most of the time we're closer to infinity then we are on the other side of the scale. Anyone with a modicum of experience can put a lens on a camera, look through the viewfinder and tell if a lens has a back focus issue right away. Sure, if it's off by a few micron's, it's not a problem and likewise you'll never notice. Any back focus issue that makes the close focus work entirely different then the spec, is something you'd notice.

 

Again, no. You cannot usually tell by looking through the viewfinder if the backfocus of a cine prime lens is off.

 

Only if the lens does not focus to infinity would it be immediately apparent just by looking only at the image. But again, that would only happen if the backfocus were too long. If it were too short (as it appears to be in your case), then you would still be able to hit infinity but the close focus would be compromised. The tolerances have to be within a hundredth of a millimeter for the marks to be accurate.

 

You would be able to ascertain proper backfocus by checking the focus marks against a tape measure, which is what every AC does for each lens in their camera prep. If the marks are short or long, then you check against the whole set of lenses and try to determine if it is the camera mount or the lens. Then fix accordingly.

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I don't think there was anything wrong with the lenses to be honest, I suspect it's simply a case of misperception - assuming all focal lengths in a set have the same minimums, not taking the stop/depth of field into account, maybe comparing a 25mm to a 50mm, not taking actual measurements, something like that.

 

I have a tendency to be dramatic, but I probably made a post right after being frustrated using the equipment. I had a shot in my mind that my little pocket camera and shitty $350 glass, could get no problem, but the expensive CP2's and Red Dragon, it was impossible to get. That's pretty frustrating... You gotta give me some slack, it was a very frustrating day.I like to vent about poop that pisses me off because there is no reason for it. Zeiss had ZERO reason to make the CP2's close focus 12+ inches, they could have expanded it because the barrel diameter is so large, there is no way focusing it closer would have vignetted. I hate manufacturers that purposely build-in deficiencies so buyers will spend more money.So here I am with a cheap-ass korean lens that sure, has inferior glass, but it has no problem getting the shot the CP2's couldn't get. You tell me, how FRUSTRATED would you be? At that point, I could care less how bad the glass was, I was just over-joyed I could actually finally get the shots I was looking for.

According to the specs, a 50mm Zeiss CP.2 has a close focus minimum of 18", while a 50mm Xeen has a close focus minimum of ... 18"!

So according to the manufacturers, they're identical.

 

In the original post it was claimed the 50mm Xeen focussed to 10" and the school Zeiss CP.2's (now clarified to include the 50mm) advertised 12 but only reached 14-16 in real life. Clearly this is totally false, misremembered information.

 

If a lens could focus closer without unacceptable loss of quality the manufacturers would advertise it. Sometimes a lens has more travel in the focus barrel, but the minimum mark is where the manufacturer has decided to limit official close focus capability and retain the MTF specs. Naturally a deep stop will allow closer objects to appear in focus too. A macro lens has been optimised for closer focus distances, and may require special focus mechanics to extend so far.

 

To say Zeiss has zero reason to make close focus only 12" betrays a complete lack of understanding about lenses. For a start, different focal lengths have different minimums. Also, it's not about the size of the barrel, you only have to look at the minimums on Master Primes. Look at all the lens brands and compare their minimums: longer focal lengths tend to have longer minimums, and the specs for particular focal lengths are often very close between brands. As I have said before, it's not a conspiracy to make anyone buy Macro lenses, it's just physics.

 

Instead of getting frustrated by equipment not doing something and assuming a false reason, it makes more sense to research and understand why the limitations exist, and then work around them.

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I don't think there was anything wrong with the lenses to be honest, I suspect it's simply a case of misperception - assuming all focal lengths in a set have the same minimums, not taking the stop/depth of field into account, maybe comparing a 25mm to a 50mm, not taking actual measurements, something like that.

Yes it appears I made a snafu. I honestly don't remember my gripe about the CP2's and I will have to check when I get them again.

 

My specs were all over the place and I get that, I wasn't "quoting" spec's and I see my error now that I have the lenses on the camera and re-measured. I'm like duhh... but but but it doesn't matter. What matters is that the hammer of doom came tumbling down upon me. If all you had said was "Re-check those minimal focuses you posted" that would have got me into the garage and I would have come back going "you're right!" Instead, you went off, which led other people to go off, which led to an entire thread about going off on tye. I made a simple mistake that could have been rectified in 10 seconds, had it been pointed out like a gentlemen would have.

 

Measured;

Xeen 25mm = 10" and 50mm = 18"

Optar MKII 25mm = 9" and 50mm 16"

I will measure the CP2's tuesday if I remember.

 

To say Zeiss has zero reason to make close focus only 12" betrays a complete lack of understanding about lenses.

I've seen first hand the stop being cut off Zeiss lenses and them focusing MUCH closer then stock. It's 100% possible and I understand lens companies have their reasoning for NOT doing it, but IT SHOULD BE AN OPTION. Maybe a button you push that gets it into a "special" close focus mode. Point being, it's possible with limited modifications. I will gladly shoot a video of my lens tech showing me this process, but I bet you'd shake your head and say no poop sherlock.

 

Instead of getting frustrated by equipment not doing something and assuming a false reason, it makes more sense to research and understand why the limitations exist, and then work around them.

I've owned cameras for almost my entire life. My cheapest camera was probably a Sears Super 8 and the most expensive until last year was probably my pocket cameras. You wanna talk about limitations? I've lived and continue to live with huge limitations in everything I shoot and edit. I can't afford fancy equipment and I can't afford to rent it either. Yet for some reason, I still get away with making pretty decent images with what I've got. People pick on me all the time, saying my images could be a lot better, but I hand them my tools and they back off pretty quickly. Sure, sure, I just invested a tun of money in better equipment and yes I also have access to some great stuff, but that's all been in the last few months. I'm still doing post on 3 projects using that stuff, so I have yet to see how much head hammering I get when I post them. :)

 

When I go out of my way to rent equipment for clients that want something better then what I have access to, I'm always upset when I still have to compensate for the limitations as if I was using my own low-end equipment. What's the point of owning a $50k prime lens set if they "function" the same way as a $15k set? What's the point of having a big/heavy camera that uses special file formats and super high resolution, when for the rental budget alone, I can buy an entire camera package that fits the clients needs?

 

I get frustrated because the company is spending a lot of money on rental equipment to hopefully make my life easier, but it never does. Sure, the final image LOOKS better in most cases, but as a cinematographer, is it any easier to use? No... it isn't. I'd say working with more expensive equipment is actually FAR more difficult. It's why I sold my Moviecam and bought an Aaton 35III. A smaller/easier to use package that does the same job.

 

Anyway, these are just my opinions, just random un-scripted thoughts on your comment. I don't care if they're right or wrong in anyone's eyes. I'm not the same person as everyone else and I'm sure as heck not doing the same type of projects. There is no reason for anyone to get into a hissy fit over these comments.

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Expensive gear still needs to be tuned to operate properly, sometimes even more than cheap consumer gear. You just can't assume that because you have an expensive lens it will automatically give you peak performance without being checked and tuned up first.

Imagine if you never changed the oil in a Ferrari? Or never changed the strings and checked intonation on a 1959 Les Paul? You would have the same issues. You can't blame the equipment for bad performance if it hasn't been kept up to spec.

As for the whole 'modified close focus' thing, yes on the Zeiss Standard Speeds and some other lenses, the close focus stopper pin can be pulled to achieve closer focus. That comes with its own set of trade-offs.

Mechanically, the lens rotates significantly more than 360 degrees and thus can't be used with a wireless follow focus unit like the Preston. Since the Preston auto-calibrates and assumes a >360 degree focus travel on the barrel, you lose the ability to infinity focus and pretty much all of your useable marks this way. I found this one out as a 1st AC the hard way on commercial job many years ago. You can trick the auto-calibration by stopping the motor gear from rotating with your thumb.

Not sure if the focus helix would come uncoupled completely if you let it continue to rotate forever, but that would be very bad. That can happen with some other lenses like my Iscorama 36, where the front part of the lens can just fall off with the stopper pin pulled.

Maybe Dom can enlighten us about that and tell us what the optical downsides are.

What matters is that the hammer of doom came tumbling down upon me. If all you had said was "Re-check those minimal focuses you posted" that would have got me into the garage and I would have come back going "you're right!"


And again, if all you had said was,"I'm having this technical problem, can anyone help me out?" Then this is exactly the response you would have gotten. Respect goes both ways.

  

I get frustrated because the company is spending a lot of money on rental equipment to hopefully make my life easier, but it never does.


You may not believe me, but we are all in the same position when we use unfamiliar gear. Nobody uses a piece of equipment for the first time (or the first time in a long time) and knows how to operate it properly. I'm sure you've seen your students struggle to open a c-stand at first. When I get handed a new digital camera, I'm usually fumbling around just trying to turn the damn thing on for a few minutes.

But you know what fixes it quickly? Simply asking someone who knows the gear to just show you how to do it. You can set aside all the frustration, because that's really all you have to do to get out of the ditch and on your way again.
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And again, if all you had said was,"I'm having this technical problem, can anyone help me out?" Then this is exactly the response you would have gotten. Respect goes both ways.

True, but I wasn't asking for help, I didn't need help. I was merely making observations and opinions.

 

If I was asking for help, it would have been an entirely different story. I'm not scared to ask for help, I do it all the time. It's just, I like figuring poop out on my own sometimes. To me, the learning (experimenting) experience is worth the aggravation.

 

You may not believe me, but we are all in the same position when we use unfamiliar gear. Nobody uses a piece of equipment for the first time (or the first time in a long time) and knows how to operate it properly. I'm sure you've seen your students struggle to open a c-stand at first. When I get handed a new digital camera, I'm usually fumbling around just trying to turn the damn thing on for a few minutes.

 

But you know what fixes it quickly? Simply asking someone who knows the gear to just show you how to do it. You can set aside all the frustration, because that's really all you have to do to get out of the ditch and on your way again.

Agreed, all good points. Maybe I should reach out more.

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True, but I wasn't asking for help, I didn't need help. I was merely making observations and opinions.

 

If I was asking for help, it would have been an entirely different story. I'm not scared to ask for help, I do it all the time. It's just, I like figuring poop out on my own sometimes. To me, the learning (experimenting) experience is worth the aggravation.

 

Ok. Well, have it your way.

 

But this is just going to keep happening to you over and over again, and even if you feel all the conflict you are generating is 'worth the aggravation', I think many of us are quite frustrated that you are using us as a foil for your Socratic method. Frankly, I think it's pretty selfish behavior...

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But this is just going to keep happening to you over and over again, and even if you feel all the conflict you are generating is 'worth the aggravation', I think many of us are quite frustrated that you are using us as a foil for your Socratic method. Frankly, I think it's pretty selfish behavior...

But it doesn't just happen to me, that's what your missing. It's happened to countless other people on this forum over the few years I've been here. The only reason it happens to me more often, is that I don't give up, I fight back when people hit me on the head with a hammer. Other people simply go away and don't feed the trolls.

 

It's funny, because I've seen this same issue on every forum I've been on, for the last 20 years... and I've been on dozens. There are always a hand-full of older/seasoned members who feel it's their job to correct everyone no matter what they say. There are also people like me, who use the internet forum for what it's suppose to be; an open mic to express their own feelings, opinions and maybe even challenge the status quo.

 

We aren't just a technical resource, we are here to DISCUSS AND SHARE our experiences! Thats the definition of an internet forum, like it or not. ;)

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But it doesn't just happen to me, that's what your missing. It's happened to countless other people on this forum over the few years I've been here. The only reason it happens to me more often, is that I don't give up, I fight back when people hit me on the head with a hammer. Other people simply go away and don't feed the trolls.

 

It's funny, because I've seen this same issue on every forum I've been on, for the last 20 years... and I've been on dozens. There are always a hand-full of older/seasoned members who feel it's their job to correct everyone no matter what they say. There are also people like me, who use the internet forum for what it's suppose to be; an open mic to express their own feelings, opinions and maybe even challenge the status quo.

 

We aren't just a technical resource, we are here to DISCUSS AND SHARE our experiences! Thats the definition of an internet forum, like it or not. ;)

 

 

All good points.. but that changes when people say they an expert in a certain field and give expert advise to others .. coming to the forum for, well expert advise.. then you better be right..or you do them and the forum a dis service.. thats different from shooting the breeze and just having saying whats on your mind.. I dont think anyone has a problem with that..

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It's funny, because I've seen this same issue on every forum I've been on, for the last 20 years... and I've been on dozens. There are always a hand-full of older/seasoned members who feel it's their job to correct everyone no matter what they say.

We aren't just a technical resource, we are here to DISCUSS AND SHARE our experiences! Thats the definition of an internet forum, like it or not. ;)

If you've encountered this situation on every forum you've been on, then maybe the issue is you. You may feel that you are being unfairly corrected, when all you are trying to do is share your experiences, but one of the reasons for that is that you always start by referencing your 20 years of experience in numerous fields, and by professing expertise that, frankly, you don't appear to have.

 

There is always a temptation to speak outside of one's experience, particularly on a forum like this, but it's rarely a good idea for anyone.

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All good points.. but that changes when people say they an expert in a certain field and give expert advise to others .. coming to the forum for, well expert advise.. then you better be right..or you do them and the forum a dis service.. thats different from shooting the breeze and just having saying whats on your mind.. I dont think anyone has a problem with that..

Agreed and I do see the conflict. I will for sure make a better attempt to separate opinion from "expert advice" in the future. Sometimes I simply get too excited and just assume everyone knows me, so they understand where I come from, where in reality ya'll don't really know me at all. So yea :)

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We aren't just a technical resource, we are here to DISCUSS AND SHARE our experiences! Thats the definition of an internet forum, like it or not. ;)

 

Those things are not incompatible. They normally can co-exist quite happily. But if factual observation is sloppy or is confused with opinion or some flamboyant emotional riff then the mess starts. And this is what is being initiated, by one particular person. Thinking of what Satsuki said, maybe we are all defacto, unpaid and abused participants in a quasi socratic debate that has no real benefit. My riff on that is that I feel like a defacto, unpaid and abused psychotherapist. Took some slugs too (red arrows from the small shadow cadre).

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If you've encountered this situation on every forum you've been on, then maybe the issue is you.

Well, I've "seen" it happen on every forum I've been on. It's not necessarily directed towards me at all.

 

You may feel that you are being unfairly corrected, when all you are trying to do is share your experiences, but one of the reasons for that is that you always start by referencing your 20 years of experience in numerous fields, and by professing expertise that, frankly, you don't appear to have.

I'm totally ok with being corrected, you may have missed an earlier response where I mention that. What I don't like is being beat on the head and told with authority I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

I think Satsuki explained it above very well... it's hard to remember things you don't do every day. I know my story has been explained before, but in a nutshell... went to college for cinematography, was trained/mentored by a commercial DP, everything was on the up and up. Moved to Los Angeles, did two features back to back, on the 2nd one got burned, needed money and was forced to get a full-time job. I was very angry at the industry, watching friends of mine get screwed as well, I basically gave up on my dream. I spent 10 years completely out of the creative industry and only got back into it because I made such great connections during those years. It's been a very slow build up since late 2013 when I bought my pocket cameras and started shooting once again. Now in 2017, I finally have all the tools necessary to make some great stuff. I've been writing, directing, shooting and editing pretty much non-stop since late 2016. I'll have a great new demo reel, great new website, a lot more connections and hopefully be rewarded by securing some good paying work.

 

Point being.. I have the knowledge, I have the experience, It's just buried under layers of other information. So I know it seems like I don't know jack poop, but I just have so much on my plate, it's hard for me to remember. I will never be a full-time cinematographer, but if you caught me on set, you wouldn't know that.

 

There is always a temptation to speak outside of one's experience, particularly on a forum like this, but it's rarely a good idea for anyone.

Again, just because you forget things, doesn't mean you're lacking the experience.

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My riff on that is that I feel like a defacto, unpaid and abused psychotherapist.

LOL :P

 

You do understand that nobody is forcing you to post anything right? You aren't being paid to post, the thread never mentions your name or has anything to do with you. So in this case, the best option is simple ignore what's posted, right? :wink wink nudge nudge:

 

I'm all for a heated debate and I like confrontation when it leads to something positive, but there is nothing here to talk about. I deleted my original post, I have no idea what I even wrote, yet everyone keeps coming back here, why? Because ya'll are curious and love a good debate just like I do. :)

 

So yea, should we just move on with the conversation? I think it's "that time" ya know?

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LOL :P

 

You do understand that nobody is forcing you to post anything right?

 

What compelled me to write was that one particular person was degrading the forum. Everyone has been very patient. That's not really my nature, being patient with perverse, errant people. I think I joked in a PM with another member that we could fix it all with some tar, feathers, nailing him to a box car and sending him out of town. Of course this isn't legal any more, but I hope the metaphore stings enough to shock you into recognizing what you are doing.

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went to college for cinematography,

did two features back to back, on the 2nd one got burned, needed money and was forced to get a full-time job.

I've been writing, directing, shooting and editing pretty much non-stop since late 2016.

 

No offense, Tyler, but that's same about the same level of experience as my 2nd ACs. You have previously claimed expertise in many different fields, not just cinematography, and that is perhaps why so many people here have lost patience with you, and started to criticize everything you post. Perhaps if you were more careful to frame your posts as personal, rather than expert opinion, you would attract less criticism.

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What compelled me to write was that one particular person was degrading the forum.

Two negatives, don't make a positive. If your point is to stop degrading the forum, you need to first look at your comments.

 

Everyone has been very patient. That's not really my nature, being patient with perverse, errant people.

I was instilled from early childhood that patience, acceptance and loving thy neighbor, are the most important things in life. The moment we forget those things, is when we've truly given up on life.

 

I think I joked in a PM with another member that we could fix it all with some tar, feathers, nailing him to a box car and sending him out of town. Of course this isn't legal any more, but I hope the metaphore stings enough to shock you into recognizing what you are doing.

The funny thing is, I'm not purposely "doing" anything. That's what makes your petty comments and hate-filled metaphor a complete joke.

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No offense, Tyler, but that's same about the same level of experience as my 2nd ACs. You have previously claimed expertise in many different fields, not just cinematography, and that is perhaps why so many people here have lost patience with you, and started to criticize everything you post. Perhaps if you were more careful to frame your posts as personal, rather than expert opinion, you would attract less criticism.

I appreciate the advice, but even if I prefaced my posts with cautions, nothing will change. There are literally 6 people on here who feel that solving problems requires brute force, everyone else is smart enough to realize nothing is solved by doing that.

 

In terms of my experience... :cough: I'm really not a cinematographer anymore. I dropped that profession in 2003 and have been focusing on "filmmaking" instead because I'm more interested in storytelling, hence my job title is "other" and NOT "cinematographer". Anyone who doesn't know my story, can see that clear as day. It's also written in my "bio" page, which I think everyone on here has read. LOL :P

 

So to say that my "experience" level is on par with a digital-age 2nd AC is just a joke. I just shot and directed a 7 page, 4 location (interior/exterior) narrative script with dialog in 10hrs, on 35mm with ZERO crew, two weekends ago. Loaded my own magazines (we shot 5, 400ft rolls and only had 1 magazine), labeled them and the can's properly, cleaned/maintained my own 35mm film camera, assembled the camera, made lens changes, used my light meter, setup all the lights, ran the camera/did my own focus pulls, setup all the audio, labeled the slate properly, even took script notes as we went along. Then I had to direct the actors, setup the props/art direction, deal with location problems/company moves, rushed around to get the perfect shots as magic hour disappeared into the distance, even had to deal with an unforeseen camera issue. I'm not bragging or saying anything we shot is any good... poop isn't even processed yet. Just saying, I doubt a 2nd AC working on low-budget features would even contemplate pulling that sorta shoot off. For me, it was a blast, I love doing everything myself, especially on film, it's so rewarding. There is a connection you get with the actors and the equipment, that you just don't get working with a full crew or even digital. To me, that hands-on approach is something I love and it's why I decided to stop focusing on being JUST a cinematographer, even though in my eyes, it's one of the most critical roles on set.

 

My story isn't designed to brag about my "accomplishments" it's only a snapshot into my world. Likewise, just because I can perform all the jobs, doesn't mean I could be an AC on a big show. There is insider terminology that's thrown me for a loop many times. There are little detailed operations that frankly, I couldn't do on a regular basis, I'd go insane. When I'm on set, if I'm not a driving/creative force, I'd rather be somewhere I am. It's one of the reasons I didn't go to "AC" school, it's why I kinda dropped right into lighting and cinematography. I hands-down, love cinematography, but it's a long-term journey of experimentation that requires focus and dedication that I simply don't have. I'm too excited about the next thing, I'm too spontaneous with my thoughts and life goals.

 

It's not easy doing so much, always being forced to learn new things, but it's my life and it's who I am. If it means, I'm not an "expert" in anything, so be it. I'd rather know and be 80% proficient at everything, then 100% proficient at one thing. To me, life is too short for long-term accomplishments. I'm always ready to open a new door and step right in when given the chance. Maybe as I get older my opinion will change, but until then, I'm very much enjoying the ride.

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I was instilled from early childhood that patience, acceptance and loving thy neighbor, are the most important things in life. The moment we forget those things, is when we've truly given up on life.

 

 

These self professed qualities are not evident in what you commonly write on the forum.

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These self professed qualities are not evident in what you commonly write on the forum.

In your humble opinion... and I'm not perfect. When I get ganged up on, there are times I've bitten back. However, just because I can bite back, doesn't mean that's who I am. It's just a self defense mechanism.

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