Red vs Arri

[Carlos de Varona]

Alright before I continue, let me say... Im not exactly a gear head. Im much more about the feeling, and always say you can make a great film shooting on a toaster if you have the right ideas/script etc.

 

The reason im writing this is because late last year I purchased a Red Epic-W and while Ive been able to shoot some nice content, I keep running into stupid issues with the camera itself. Im not alone actually. Others are constantly complaining about the "green cast" and all sorts of other bugs that you would think wouldnt be present on a "high end" camera.

 

Im just wondering.. did the alexa mini come with a bunch of bugs as well?

 

Maybe this has already been discussed., would appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction. And if not.. What do you prefer to shoot on when it comes to reliability.

 

 

Thanks

[Giray Izcan]

Arri for sure. We were shooting a promo for the Voice on 2 Red Epic Dragons at a Universal soundstage - with AC. Still, one of the cameras was out of play for an hour because of overheating issues. Also, it is just easier to work with Arris from a dp and an Ac perspective. It is more of a camera without needing as many third party accessories as you would with REDs. Easier and more accessible menu, better color rendition in my opinion and doesn't really have all the bugs, issues and delicacy of REDs.

[Max Field]

We were shooting a promo for the Voice on 2 Red Epic Dragons at a Universal soundstage - with AC. Still, one of the cameras was out of play for an hour because of overheating issues.

 

Chirst lol.

 

Is there a bugless digital camera in existence? They all have their flaws in a way.

[Aapo Lettinen]

Arri cameras tend to be a bit more reliable I think and are a bit more sturdy.

Sure they can fail you sometimes like any other camera but not as often as most of the other gear I think.

Most of the problems I have seen with Arris (Alexa Plus/XT/Mini/Amira) have been them missing timecode sync when changing batteries and other timecode related.

can usually be avoided by using backup battery when changing the main battery (using block + v-lock combination for example)

some bad formatting happened once or twice with cards and with Amira the recording did not always continue when camera switched between cards on the fly.

 

the main benefit of arris is easier and often faster data managing and post workflow I think, may save quite a lot of money depending on the production.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

biggest issues i've had Arri-side are the CFast cards on the mini but those aren't really an arri thing--- it's a lexar or scandisk thing. Of the two; Arri is generally the better choice unless you need that higher res that only red can give. However, I also am not a huge fan of the mini being used as an A camera, though having done a feature on both the Dragon and the Mini neither had a major hiccup.

 

Sharkfins are very useful for either camera so you have 2 batteries on her at once.

[Max Field]

Is even the Alexa classic quieter and better cooled than RED?

Edited May 5, 2017 by Macks Fiiod

[Stuart Brereton]

Is even the Alexa classic quieter and better cooled than RED?

Even your average hairdryer is quieter than a RED.

 

:)

[Tyler Purcell]

Honestly, I've had zero technical issues with either camera. I've shot with the Epic MX and Dragon quite a bit and did a few industrial shows with the Alexa XT few years ago when it first came out. All of the cameras worked flawlessly in the heat of Southern California, no over-heating, no excess fan noise, no glitches in the image, no green or magenta cast on the Red.

 

What I learned after the fact is that the Red cameras I've been using, were updated by Red recently and that update "fixed" the green and magenta issues. I also use set my white balance setting more towards the warm side of the spectrum and try to use warmer glass. The MX imager is a bit noisy compared to the Dragon imager, which I feel is a lot better over-all. The Alexa imager is beautiful on pretty much all the Alexa's.

 

In terms of camera use, if you're talking Alexa Mini vs Dragon, I can't help... But in terms of Alexa XT or any of the old-school bodies, I prefer the Alexa. The direct access to most key functions from the side of the body is critical, something Red doesn't have. Plus, the old school Alexa body is just a better operating camera, it feels like a real camera, where the Epic/Dragon/Weapon, body feels like a brick that you always have to attach poop onto. I don't like Red's proprietary modular system at all, I think it tricks people into thinking the cameras are cheaper then they really are. I think Arri does a much better job at packaging cameras in my opinion.

 

I can attest to how nice the Red and Arri workflows are in the year 2017... where we finally have CPU's, GPU's and drives fast enough to deal with the raw camera material in real-time. I can take Raw 6k Red Code from the Dragon (or Arri Raw 3.2k), throw it into DaVinci and with some minor tweaks, get a decent image out of it, with real-time playback. Yes, you need a super fast computer, yes you need a super fast graphics card and storage, but it's exciting to finally be at a point in history where it's POSSIBLE to do this stuff. This boost in computing performance, really came about around 3 years ago.

 

So over-all, I kinda like both the Dragon and XT, they're great cameras. I haven't used the Mini yet... probably won't anytime soon.

[Gregory Irwin]

Warner Bros. will not allow a Red to be the primary camera system on any of their shows. They must have gotten burned. Interesting to note, on FATE OF THE FURIOUS (Universal), we used several Dragons and Weapons for specific stunt purposes. Whenever the red tail lights of any of our picture vehicles were photographed by a Red camera, they came out as magenta. The colorist had to matte around each tail light and color correct frame by frame to make them look like RED tail lights!!! Lession learned: RED cannot photograph a true red!!!

 

G

[David Mullen ASC]

The new color science developed by Light Iron for the Panavision Millennium DXL, which uses a Red Dragon VV sensor, apparently solves the red tail light problem.

[Rakesh Malik]

Even your average hairdryer is quieter than a RED.

 

:)

 

Red seems to have finally addressed this... except when I was in the desert heat, my Epic-W has been surprisingly quiet so far.

[Keith Walters]

Warner Bros. will not allow a Red to be the primary camera system on any of their shows. They must have gotten burned. Interesting to note, on FATE OF THE FURIOUS (Universal), we used several Dragons and Weapons for specific stunt purposes. Whenever the red tail lights of any of our picture vehicles were photographed by a Red camera, they came out as magenta. The colorist had to matte around each tail light and color correct frame by frame to make them look like RED tail lights!!! Lession learned: RED cannot photograph a true red!!!

 

G

Were they modern LED tail lights or the older incandescent type? I've seen that quite a lot with consumer video cameras, but I'd never heard of it on high-end cinematography cameras. The reason it adds spurious blue is that, because a silicon sensor is much more sensitive to red than blue, the blue channel has to have more gain to compensate, and so any spurious response from the blue-masked pixels tends to be exaggerated, producing a blue cast.

[David Peterson]

Most of the problems I have seen with Arris (Alexa Plus/XT/Mini/Amira) have been them missing timecode sync when changing batteries and other timecode related.

can usually be avoided by using backup battery when changing the main battery (using block + v-lock combination for example)

Is this even when shooting with a TC lockbox attached to it at all times?!

[Aapo Lettinen]

Is this even when shooting with a TC lockbox attached to it at all times?!

 

it has happened when using the "sync couple of times a day" method. it is not a normal practice here to attach the tc box to the camera for the whole day, it is only used when needed for re sync and the rest of the time it is with the sound dept. another way is to sync directly with the Cantar or 788T (the most used recorders here) via cable if needed.

 

I've been in one production where we ran wireless tc to the camera continuously but otherwise it is normally "sync once before first shot - check visually every now and then - re-sync after lunch or whenever needed "

[Robin R Probyn]

also surprised you had TC problems with Arri..even without lockit or similar.. AFAIK they have Ambient internal TC generators ..which is the Rolls Royce of TC clocks.. every single round recordist I have ever asked says the Arri,s are the best camera for keeping TC sync.. certainly it shouldn't drop just changing batteries.. there is no need to hot swap for TC sake.. even my F5 will deal with that.. did you shoot off speed at all.. that will screw it up..

[Aapo Lettinen]

also surprised you had TC problems with Arri..even without lockit or similar.. AFAIK they have Ambient internal TC generators ..which is the Rolls Royce of TC clocks.. every single round recordist I have ever asked says the Arri,s are the best camera for keeping TC sync.. certainly it shouldn't drop just changing batteries.. there is no need to hot swap for TC sake.. even my F5 will deal with that.. did you shoot off speed at all.. that will screw it up..

 

we did not shoot off speed... but it has happened with 4 or 5 different camera bodies multiple times in a row so it can't be coincidence :blink:

it may have something to do with the internal batteries of the cameras, though most of the bodies were not that old.

the ac's hot swapped batteries specifically to avoid the resyncing problem :mellow:

the Arris keep the TC very well indeed as long as they are attached to a power source but we started to have problems with some of them immediately when powering down and swapping the battery so that the power source was removed for a minute or so :blink:

[Robin R Probyn]

If the internal batteries are down the TC will keep going back to Zero..and you would be getting a notice in the VF.. well that was my unfortunate experience anyway ! They should hold TC between battery changes....or the audio was running a different frame rate ! .. you were taking a TC out from the audio recorder for TC start of the day.. its wise to re do it when you have time but you shouldn't have to hot swap batteries just to keep TC..let alone on an Arri.. I would have been onto the rental company if that was happening with 4 or 5 camera,s..

 

Has it always been with the same audio person .. :)