Any experience with Chinese Fresnels?

Aapo Lettinen · October 31, 2017

So quite useful then...?... :)

not compared to Fresnels no :) but they are lightweight so can be rigged to some weird places and may have quite ok light quality if diffused

Samuel Berger · October 31, 2017

It is just, a 50D film with CTB gelled tungsten lighting =not effective at all, you will lose half of the light output even if gelling to around 4500K for "warm daylight" look. the vnsp 1k's would probably do something useful if the ctb does not melt on them but I would really try to use mostly natural daylight reflected around and add some punch with cool led and hmi units.

Doesn't look like they used a lot of lights on this.

Click that "V" button.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Samuel Berger

Aapo Lettinen · October 31, 2017

Just so you know, I live in the Seattle area so "rentals" don't really exist for anything other than basic video production.

if using the 250D stock on ultra16 but overexposing quite much to tighten the grain it would be easier to light, even if getting to around 125ISO or so would be much easier... are you shooting mainly day or night interiors+exteriors?

If you really need to use tungsten lights as you main units you could try gelling with 1/2 ctb only and go with that warmer look, possibly gelling the windows with a quarter cto or so? depending on the look you are after of course.

I would use lots of mirrors and reflectors to direct natural light, especially if you are for a flatter look, and then use something at least 2k tungsten gelled and diffused to fix the rest. If there is only video production stuff available, you could use Blondes?

they may have some 2k fresnels as well... at least some studio versions which are pretty basic stuff, even some theaters may have them.

5K's would be nice but would be more difficult to find and you may have problems arranging the needed power even for the bunch of 2k's.

If you have possibility to get even a single hmi unit it would be much easier for you to light, even a single 1.2k would make your life much easier :)

Gregg MacPherson · October 31, 2017

....800Redheads... they are not good for much else than bouncing or filling up diffusion frames.

I think Roger Deakins still likes them, so I guess one could take a lesson from him... :)

If diffusing, then a redhead is a simple cheap source. If one had none, one might use the fresnel instead, and justify the expense by saying it is more useful.....What if the light had to be further away from the frame and so forth...

Aapo Lettinen · October 31, 2017

Doesn't look like they used a lot of lights on this.

that differs quite much from the look you were describing. the kind of lighting in the video could be done with some smaller fresnels and /or larger led units easily but if you are after a lower contrast look, especially if needing a cool rather than warm look, then you would need lots more light. you would then need to gel the lights past 6000K or alternatively neutral around 5000 - 5600K+ grading later to cooler look (pulling the reds down) which loses the same amount of light than gelling to the same color on set but makes a slightly different grain texture because of the different colour layer exposure.

How did you light the 2-perf scenes, could you just use the same supplier for the lights, just getting more of them this time?

I would get lots and lots of shiny blankets, mirrors, kapa reflectors etc. reflecting media for the daylight in scenes and experiment a little on the locations for how much you can bring the exposure up with them and how much you actually need extra lighting units and how much can be done with directing natural light

Samuel Berger · October 31, 2017

I haven't lit any scenes yet, at the moment everything is in pre-production. I went back and read what I wrote. I see I said earlier that dramas like mine tend to be lit flatly. Oops. I didn't mean I wanted mine to be flat, hehe. Sorry about that. And the point of posting that "16mm test" video was to show that there's no need to had an exploding supernova on the set to get some glimmer of light onto 50D film. ;-) It also didn't represent the style being sought.

This next image does, though.

If I could have one shot that looked like this, I'd consider myself happy:

Samuel Berger · November 2, 2017

I'm going back to the original suggestion aapo posted:

1pc 300 tungsten fresnel

2pc 650w tungsten fresnel

2 pcs 1000w vnsp ("firestarter") par64 can with barndoors etc.

other par cans like source fours can be added as well if you need them.

(2pcs of 800w redheads OR a 2k Blonde for diffusion frames and bouncing if you can get them very cheaply or free and really need them)

1pc high power daylight LED panel, SPOT ANGLE (something like 50w minimum, I would have close to 100w if possible. I would prefer daylight balanced instead of adjustable colour temp because of more output, it will be mostly needed for daylight applications anyway)

1pc lower power LED panel in the 30-50w range if you need it, can be adjustable or daylight balanced. I would prefer spot but can be wider angle if needed

Lots of frames, kapa and styrofoam reflectors, flags.

A small adjustable hazer! you may think you don't need it but you can't live without it when having one :)

One dedolight type very narrow spot tungsten or led light may be handy at times but not absolutely needed.

This is all very expensive stuff unless I do go the Chinese knock-off route, at least with the fresnels. I'm going to look into this and do a cost estimate. But it does sound like it would work...at least I hope so.

As for the hazer, here in America it seems to be very difficult to get, because fog machines get labeled as "hazers" very often and they're not the same. I've seen people use mineral oil and bug zappers, and that did WONDERS for their equipment...ugh.

Phil Rhodes · November 2, 2017

Inexpensive:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TC-CE-Source-Four-PAR-EA-Electronic-Theatre-Light/311986532657?hash=item48a3d8b131:g:MP8AAOSwB4BZ7fIs

Look around for one with lenses, but they're not very expensive to buy.

You can also get barn doors for them.

P

Samuel Berger · November 2, 2017

Inexpensive:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TC-CE-Source-Four-PAR-EA-Electronic-Theatre-Light/311986532657?hash=item48a3d8b131:g:MP8AAOSwB4BZ7fIs

Look around for one with lenses, but they're not very expensive to buy.

You can also get barn doors for them.

P

Thanks Phil, I will look. But that one there I wouldn't get because here in America we use 110/120V and that one seems to need twice the current.

I'm very green when it comes to lighting, I've only ever lit interviews,haha. So don't those need a stand?

Phil Rhodes · November 2, 2017

You've got it easier - that one's here in the UK, but if you search the US eBay for "source four PAR" you'll find they're actually easier to get there.

Yes, they'd need a stand.

P

Heikki Repo · November 2, 2017

Just so you know, I live in the Seattle area so "rentals" don't really exist for anything other than basic video production.

I tried to google a bit for Seattle and cine light rentals. First result was Seattle Grip and Lighting which had closed. However, Pacific Grip and Lighting has an office in Seattle and you can order gear online: http://pacificgrip.com/

They seem to have exactly the stuff you need. So save your money and your space and redshirt gaffers ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirt_(character) ) and rent safe, modern powerful HMI lights. :)

Samuel Berger · November 2, 2017

I tried to google a bit for Seattle and cine light rentals. First result was Seattle Grip and Lighting which had closed. However, Pacific Grip and Lighting has an office in Seattle and you can order gear online: http://pacificgrip.com/

They seem to have exactly the stuff you need. So save your money and your space and redshirt gaffers ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirt_(character) ) and rent safe, modern powerful HMI lights. :)

Thanks Heikki,and I'm aware of what a redshirt is.

Your agonizer, please. ;-)

By the way, their rate card is expensive for the HMI stuff, but cheap for tungsten. It might be smart to ultimately own the cheaper lights and rent the HMIs.

But they have the 5K tungsten fresnels that aapo mentioned, for 80 bucks, that's not bad. The HMI Par 1.8k that he also mentioned is listed at $175. One of the versions is "flicker free". Hm. Not sure what that's about.

Heikki Repo · November 3, 2017

Well, you have to have means to power all of those 5K tungsten lights and that's where it might get tricky unless you have a generator truck :) For a smaller shoot that's pretty much why HMI, leds and CFL are so popular these days, those lights are much more efficient than tungsten. Bring in a 1.2K HMI and unless you are outside and the sun is shining, you can do very much with even one of those.

Heikki Repo · November 3, 2017

The "flickerfree" means that the light shouldn't flicker even with more exotic frame rates and shutter angles. HMIs with electronic ballasts generally are flicker free where as older HMIs with magnetic ballasts might introduce flicker if you shoot with higher/lower fps or different shutter angle. This is due to how the lights work vs tungsten.

Aapo Lettinen · November 3, 2017

the main issue with tungsten lights is the colour temperature, if you want a cold look with daylight film it is best to use high colour temperature to help exposing the emulsion layers for lower grain (otherwise would be no benefit of using the low sensitivity stock) and to be able to get the correct exposure for the look as well (better to boost the blue channel to the right exposure level on set rather than underexposing it and gaining it in post) , but that means you would need to gel the tungsten lights to maybe around 7000K or so and the gels then eat up so much light that you need really powerful tungstens to use the 50D film you have on a larger set (meaning that you would like to light an area wider than couple of feets/maybe 1.5 - 2 meters at a time).

The HMIs have both much better efficiency (about 4x more light per watt than with tungsten lights) and they are already somewhere around 6000K native so you don't have to gel them as much.

if doing a very unscientific "calculation" you would get maybe something like 8x - 9x more light with the HMI compared to similar wattage tungsten light if gelling the tungsten to the same high colour temp?

So the 1.2k hmi compares to at least 10K tungsten light in your application, maybe more if you compare the reflectors and spread ("punch") as well if the tungsten is fresnel and the HMI is a new par or Max model.

Your power options are probably limited so I really don't think you are really able to replace a hmi with any kind of tungsten in your application, you will just limit your set size so much that it makes shooting difficult and you have to use mostly tight shots and light a very small area at a time to be able to get the exposure you need for the very insensitive film. with 250D it would be not that much of a problem or with 200T not at all but with the 50 it certainly is.

I personally use the 2k tungstens for cold look on limited budget only if the camera can do 1000 - 1600 ISO or more so that gelling is possible and I can still light an area wider than couple of meters at a time. otherwise it would be HMI of at least one or two 1.2K's or more, preferably 1.8K's or 2.5K's (those still can use household power here in 230V country) or with that insensitive film I would maybe use two 4K's or one 4K and one 1.8K so that could light a slightly larger area at a time and don't have to shoot wide open all the time.

Of course if lighting very tight shots at a time, shooting wide open and limiting the actor movement to an area not exceeding couple of feets at a time, then some smaller tungstens would do. Could be best, however, if you could use a 200T film if limited to tungsten lights so that you would not need as much gelling than with a daylight film, you will lose about two stops on the gels so you will effectively waste about 3/4 of the intensity of the light. added with the low efficiency of tungsten lights the 2K's or 5K's are very small in your application but of course you can use them (on a small area at a time) if not having any better option available ;)

Samuel Berger · November 4, 2017

I wish companies would stop messing with the colours.

I went to look for "Les Ripoux" which has sort of the look that I want and apparently it's been re-graded to this:

It's supposed to look like this:

So best way is to post a Youtube link:

Edited November 4, 2017 by Samuel Berger

Samuel Berger · November 8, 2017

the main issue with tungsten lights is the colour temperature, if you want a cold look with daylight film it is best to use high colour temperature to help exposing the emulsion layers for lower grain (otherwise would be no benefit of using the low sensitivity stock) and to be able to get the correct exposure for the look as well (better to boost the blue channel to the right exposure level on set rather than underexposing it and gaining it in post) , but that means you would need to gel the tungsten lights to maybe around 7000K or so and the gels then eat up so much light that you need really powerful tungstens to use the 50D film you have on a larger set (meaning that you would like to light an area wider than couple of feets/maybe 1.5 - 2 meters at a time).

The HMIs have both much better efficiency (about 4x more light per watt than with tungsten lights) and they are already somewhere around 6000K native so you don't have to gel them as much.

if doing a very unscientific "calculation" you would get maybe something like 8x - 9x more light with the HMI compared to similar wattage tungsten light if gelling the tungsten to the same high colour temp?

So the 1.2k hmi compares to at least 10K tungsten light in your application, maybe more if you compare the reflectors and spread ("punch") as well if the tungsten is fresnel and the HMI is a new par or Max model.

Your power options are probably limited so I really don't think you are really able to replace a hmi with any kind of tungsten in your application, you will just limit your set size so much that it makes shooting difficult and you have to use mostly tight shots and light a very small area at a time to be able to get the exposure you need for the very insensitive film. with 250D it would be not that much of a problem or with 200T not at all but with the 50 it certainly is.

I personally use the 2k tungstens for cold look on limited budget only if the camera can do 1000 - 1600 ISO or more so that gelling is possible and I can still light an area wider than couple of meters at a time. otherwise it would be HMI of at least one or two 1.2K's or more, preferably 1.8K's or 2.5K's (those still can use household power here in 230V country) or with that insensitive film I would maybe use two 4K's or one 4K and one 1.8K so that could light a slightly larger area at a time and don't have to shoot wide open all the time.

Of course if lighting very tight shots at a time, shooting wide open and limiting the actor movement to an area not exceeding couple of feets at a time, then some smaller tungstens would do. Could be best, however, if you could use a 200T film if limited to tungsten lights so that you would not need as much gelling than with a daylight film, you will lose about two stops on the gels so you will effectively waste about 3/4 of the intensity of the light. added with the low efficiency of tungsten lights the 2K's or 5K's are very small in your application but of course you can use them (on a small area at a time) if not having any better option available ;)

Having trouble finding items that aren't either way too expensive or Chinese knock offs. I take it that Source Four Pars and HMI Pars aren't the same thing. The price difference is huge.

(I've only ever lit interviews)

Stuart Brereton · November 8, 2017

Source Four is a brand name, that's all, but the Pars that Phil was referring to are tungsten. HMI pars have the same design, but are daylight discharge lamps which require expensive globes and ballasts, hence the price difference.

if you don't like the idea of chinese copies, you could try looking at craigslist for used Mole Rchardson lamps. I'm not a big fan myself, but they can often be found at reasonable prices. You could also try https://www.usedlighting.com/

Remember, you are limited to about 1.8kw from a normal domestic outlet in the US, and sometimes less if the wiring and switchgear is old