Jump to content
Christian Schonberger

35mm 2-perf viable altrnative to Super 16?

Recommended Posts

Hello Group,

 

A couple of times I heard that 35mm 2-perf is an excellent alternative to Super 16mm film.

 

Lately I discovered some sources (facebook), where older, used film cameras are being sold in near perfect condition - for very accessible prices (no glass though). No worries: I won't buy anything without making 100% sure I know what I will get.

 

I am obviously on a budget, but doing all the math: 35mm 2-perf (even with the sides cropped to 1.85:1 or 16:9) seems to be excellent value for money since the improvement regarding grain and resolution is clearly visible and the price for film stock and procesing is only slightly higher - I get about 22 minutes from a 1000ft load of readily available 35mm camera film stock.

 

My only two concerns: I can't afford a modern camera which has a -perf option factory built-in (such as some Aaton models). So I was thinking of the expertly converted Arriflex 53 IIC, which was used very successfully as a Techniscope camera and is great (if not as great as modern cameras) for hand held.

And I don't know if 2-perf scanning is easy to come by. Let alone the price for good glass. I have no idea which focal length is considered standard (when assuming that 50mm is the average standard for 35mm spherical and 25mm for 16mm. That would make it for Techiscope around 38mm I suppose (?).

 

Any suggestions (including talking me out of the idea) highly appreciated. Please take into consideration that I am located in the EU (the good stuff is usually all in the US).

 

Merry Christmas to all members of this great board. I have learned a LOT from the very helpful members. Here is a huge Thank You!!!!

 

Christian

Edited by Christian Schonberger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Group,

 

A couple of times I heard that 35mm 2-perf is an excellent alternative to Super 16mm film.

 

Lately I discovered some sources (facebook), where older, used film cameras are being sold in near perfect condition - for very accessible prices (no glass though). No worries: I won't buy anything without making 100% sure I know what I will get.

 

I am obviously on a budget, but doing all the math: 35mm 2-perf (even with the sides cropped to 1.85:1 or 16:9) seems to be excellent value for money since the improvement regarding grain and resolution is clearly visible and the price for film stock and procesing is only slightly higher - I get about 22 minutes from a 1000ft load of readily available 35mm camera film stock.

 

My only two concerns: I can't afford a modern camera which has a -perf option factory built-in (such as some Aaton models). So I was thinking of the expertly converted Arriflex 53 IIC, which was used very successfully as a Techniscope camera and is great (if not as great as modern cameras) for hand held.

And I don't know if 2-perf scanning is easy to come by. Let alone the price for good glass. I have no idea which focal length is considered standard (when assuming that 50mm is the average standard for 35mm spherical and 25mm for 16mm. That would make it for Techiscope around 38mm I suppose (?).

 

Any suggestions (including talking me out of the idea) highly appreciated. Please take into consideration that I am located in the EU (the good stuff is usually all in the US).

 

Merry Christmas to all members of this great board. I have learned a LOT from the very helpful members. Here is a huge Thank You!!!!

 

Christian

 

Bom dia, Christian, you might want to check out my 2-perf Arri 2C for sale at http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=76068

2-Perf scanning is very easy to get by, Cinelab does it and Gamma Ray Digital scan them.

The lens you're looking for is a 50mm.

 

Boa sorte e Feliz Natal.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 perf scanning isn't a problem, it's 2 perf teleine which is a bit harder to come by.

 

Remember that 2 perf would use the same focal length lenses at 4 perf, it's just the top and bottom would be cropped.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Samuel and Tyler,

 

Thanks a lot for your fast replies.

Don't have the $$$ right now, otherwise I'd buy that sweet Arrifex right now. That model even exceeds what I was hoping for. AWESOME! Gotta wait until I have enough money.

Thanks for the info regarding the focal lengths. Since I am very likely not shooting in the "scope" format (1:2.35-ish), but rather (as I mentioned) in 1:1.85 or the slightly less wide 16:9, for various reasons - the crop factor comes in. I know it's all a matter of the way one looks at it. A 50mm lens is always a 50mm lens. On 2-perf 1:1.85 I just have the sides cropped off a little (will compose protected for it though), hence my estimated 30 simethingmillimeter as a standard. But one can see it as a cropped 50mm. No problem: got all that figured out.

 

BUT that's all a pipe dream as for now. Just wanted to check. LOVE the good old Arriflex 35 IIC. Kubrick loved this machine (as you all know of course) The new restored versions (I suppose from the camera originals, so no dye transfer and/or optical anamorhic printing onto 4.perf 35mm) of The Leone "Dollar" trilogy and Once Upon A Time In The West look just outstanding. "Shame" (2001, Arricam Lite, Techniscope) also was filmed on 2-perf. Looks great!

 

Have a great Holiday season and thank you!

Christain

 

Thanks again

Edited by Christian Schonberger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're gonna shoot 1.85:1, why not shoot 3 perf or super 16? Both formats are pretty close to 1.85:1 native. The cost savings of shooting 2 perf to pull 1.85:1 out of it, doesn't make MUCH sense to me.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember that 2 perf would use the same focal length lenses at 4 perf, it's just the top and bottom would be cropped.

 

This is not accurate. Remember he is cropping to 2.35:1 because of the 2 perf, and then to 1.85:1 from that.

 

3 & 4 perf 1.85:1 has a diagonal of 27.28mm. 2 perf 1.78:1 has a diagonal of 17.88 (I don't have the numbers 1.85 handy) 3 perf 1.85:1 has a negative area over double the size of 2 perf 1.85:1

 

Therefore, a 50mm on 3 or 4 perf 1.85:1 would have the same FoV as a 32mm on 2 perf cropped to 1.85:1, or to go the other way, a 50mm on 2 perf 1.78:1 is equivalent FoV to a 75mm on 3 perf 1.85:1

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyler and Stuart: thanks a lot for your kind replies!

 

Yup: after thinking it through: Super 16mm is the way to go - it is easier to get a good body and good glass - and modern scans of the camera original neg look really good.

 

Yes: that was my idea: since I also crop the sides (on 2-perf 35mm that is), I guesstimated that a standard lens would be 30-something millimeters. of course I would go Super 35mm 3-perf in the blink of an eye. But that will be forever out of reach.

 

Thanks again for sharing your thoughs and expertise!

 

Merry Christmas (or whatever it is you are celebrating)!

 

Happy shooting (with a camera of course)!

Christian

Edited by Christian Schonberger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

two other things just to consider in favor of s16 over 2perf (assuming you dig the grainier look of s16):

 

1 you're at about $175 per 10 minutes of stock vs $315ish for 10 minutes of stock in 2 perf (although you tend to be able to get really good deals shortends and recans for 35 much easier than on 16);

 

2 no threading on the SRs and Aaton LTRs, which can be a great time saver if you're doing a show thats mostly running and gunning. Or if you're lazy and still intimidated by gears like myself lol

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robin,

 

Thanks for the reply. No problem with the grain on S16. It's fine enough (obviously depending on stock) for my projects and I tend to be really careful to nail the exposure (including lower ASA/ISO ratings on color neg if needed).

About threading: at the moment I am shooting with a humble S 16 modded K-3 (loop formers removed, quirks solved) and I have no problem with the really fiddly threading, including double checking and open running a few bursts, before closing and tape sealing, to make sure the loops are good, stay and all runs fine). Sure: with a coax mag it's different. No film chamber and the pressure plate is part of the mag itself. I'm fine with both - I'm not a professional, so I take my time (and keep the gate clean hahaha) as long as the body/mag work perfectly. IMHO 16mm/S 16 needs really good glass, because you don't need to "bang up" an image that's too clean unless you want the Roger Deakins (deakinizer) effect.

 

Happy holidays,

Christian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is not accurate. Remember he is cropping to 2.35:1 because of the 2 perf, and then to 1.85:1 from that.

I didn't know he was cropping 2 perf to 1.85:1 until after my original comment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

two other things just to consider in favor of s16 over 2perf (assuming you dig the grainier look of s16):

 

1 you're at about $175 per 10 minutes of stock vs $315ish for 10 minutes of stock in 2 perf (although you tend to be able to get really good deals shortends and recans for 35 much easier than on 16);

Actually 35mm stock is pretty cheap these days. Studio's are shooting so much of the stuff, the re-can places like Reel good film here in Hollywood, sell 50D, 250D and 200T for between .17/ft to .22/ft which is A LOT lower than the .36/ft for new 16mm stock. They just did a firesale of 250D for .14/ft!

 

2 no threading on the SRs and Aaton LTRs, which can be a great time saver if you're doing a show thats mostly running and gunning. Or if you're lazy and still intimidated by gears like myself lol

Yes, the quick-change cameras save a lot of time. Luckily the Aaton 35III and Penelope are both quick-change 35mm cameras, 3 perf or 2 perf depending on the version. I have an Aaton III and it's the same size/shape/weight as my XTR, but shoots 3 pref.

 

Over-all 3 perf is about double what it costs to shoot s16. But 2 perf, with reduced film stock, is so close to S16 pricing that if you're going to shoot 2.40:1 aspect ratio, I would just go for 2 perf instead of S16. However, in the case of the OP who wants to shoot 1.85:1, I personally wouldn't bother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually 35mm stock is pretty cheap these days. Studio's are shooting so much of the stuff, the re-can places like Reel good film here in Hollywood, sell 50D, 250D and 200T for between .17/ft to .22/ft which is A LOT lower than the .36/ft for new 16mm stock. They just did a firesale of 250D for .14/ft!

 

 

Yes, the quick-change cameras save a lot of time. Luckily the Aaton 35III and Penelope are both quick-change 35mm cameras, 3 perf or 2 perf depending on the version. I have an Aaton III and it's the same size/shape/weight as my XTR, but shoots 3 pref.

 

Over-all 3 perf is about double what it costs to shoot s16. But 2 perf, with reduced film stock, is so close to S16 pricing that if you're going to shoot 2.40:1 aspect ratio, I would just go for 2 perf instead of S16. However, in the case of the OP who wants to shoot 1.85:1, I personally wouldn't bother.

 

0.14/ft for 250D? wow... that makes that last clairmont 2perf BL4 alan gordon has look all the more shinny lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

0.14/ft for 250D? wow... that makes that last clairmont 2perf BL4 alan gordon has look all the more shinny lol

Yep! That's their "bulk" sale price, when they have it. Right now they're out of it, but if you're on their mailing list, they will announce another sale.

 

Those BL4's are enticing, but they're huge cameras and very heavy for $14k. If they were $6k each, (there are I believe 4 of them) then it makes sense.

 

I hate to be a hypocrite, but I really want one of those Moviecam SLMKII's they've got in 3 perf.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate to be a hypocrite, but I really want one of those Moviecam SLMKII's they've got in 3 perf.

 

At that price it will be there forever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At that price it will be there forever.

Until someone breaks down and makes them an offer. I mean it happened recently as they sold the 2 perf Arricam's for BUKO bux!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I'm definitely done buying cameras, I hope. At some point Gear Acquisition Syndrome crosses over into hoarding. ;-) I own so much Super 8/16mm camera crap I'll never use.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I'm definitely done buying cameras, I hope. At some point Gear Acquisition Syndrome crosses over into hoarding. ;-) I own so much Super 8/16mm camera crap I'll never use.

HA! I'm not there yet and I have 12 super 8 cameras, 2 "professional" 16mm cameras, 2 non-professional 16mm cameras and a 35mm camera, going on 2 at some point in the near future.

 

I need at least 2 more S16 cameras. LOL :)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah but you actually rent those out and are making money from them.

I also have that Ursa Mini 4K that I'm never going to use because of the PL mount. My only PL lens is an Angenieux 25-250mm zoom and it's huge. Only stops to f3.9 I think.

Should have waited for EF to come along.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to officially apologies for driving the thread off topic by bringing up the clairmont toys.

 

but since we're off topic, gotta know, anyone know what AG let their arricam LT's 2perf movement go for? I know it vanished not long after Otto's 2 perf sold

 

again, sorry OP. hopefully this was a useful thread before the toy geekout happened lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robin,

 

No need to apologize. I mean it. Got all the information I need from the thread. Thanks for that.

 

Will look around for a really nice, reliable S 16 camera and good glass. Knowing how to work with it and digital post done just right will deliver all I'll ever need.

 

Merry Christmas to all!

 

Christian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but since we're off topic, gotta know, anyone know what AG let their arricam LT's 2perf movement go for?

I heard $32k each, but the truth isn't gonna be easy to find.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i am downsizing my 2perf 35mm KINOR 35h sync cameras. with oct.19 russian mount! totally rebuilt by solid entertainment with new paint and electronics, 2 perf conversion by aranda., over 12k invested. asking 5k.

post-22197-0-90434100-1515811408_thumb.jpg

post-22197-0-63728800-1515811433_thumb.jpg

Edited by victor huey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still even if your cropping 2 perf to 16:9, its still a 1.6X larger negative area then a 16:9 frame on super 16. So that would be a notable bump in quality. During the BBC's HD super 16 ban period - 2 perf 35mm cropped to 16:9 was considered good enough for HD.

 

So if the cost of 2-perf works out as only marginally more expensive then super16 and less then 3 perf its possibly worthwhile, if 3 perf is unaffordable. The question of if the extra quality is worth the bump in cost would have to be decided with testing etc... but it is something you could consider - 16:9 2 perf isn't a completely stupid idea. You also get the benefit of 20min loads which you can't with super 16. Some times 35mm short ends are better priced then 16mm - so you might be able to shoot 2 perf cheaper then 16mm and benefit from a notable bump in quality... win win

 

Of course a 2.40:1 - 2 perf 2.40:1 image is 3X larger then a 2.40:1 super 16 extraction so in that case 2 perf is a lot better. So for scope 2 perf is going to look vastly better then super 16.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Gamma Ray Digital Inc



    Tai Audio



    Metropolis Post



    Serious Gear



    New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment



    Rig Wheels Passport



    Ritter Battery



    Wooden Camera



    Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS



    Glidecam



    Paralinx LLC



    Abel Cine



    Visual Products



    Broadcast Solutions Inc



    CineLab


×
×
  • Create New...