Can we talk about "The Crown"?

[Samuel Berger]

Thanks, Stuart & Robin.

 

Interesting that producers/directors would not be familiar with Ursa Minis at this point. They're amazing once you get the pink out. I use an IR cut filter for that, but it would be nice not to have that issue to begin with.

 

I noticed the C300 MK2 dropped in price tremendously. It started off at $16,000 I think and it's now under $10,000.

 

Are you both in agreement on the C300/2's design being unlikable? I just really like the image, I don't think I've ever felt like that about a digital camera before, except for loving the BMPCC for web work.

Only thing is, BMD cameras never seem to cause issues in resolve. I'm not familiar with Canon's codec.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

I'm not a fan of the C series designs at all. Some folks seem to love them, I'm not one of them. I much prefer the Sony, and the extra sensitivity it has over the C series is also wonderful for my needs.

 

Blackmagic is a non-starter, it seems, for most professional shoots.

[Samuel Berger]

Blackmagic is a non-starter, it seems, for most professional shoots.

 

But why?

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Mostly because no major directors have used it on a theatrical film, nor have many, that I know of, TV shows A-Cam'd it. It can be hard to get from rental houses, producers aren't familiar with it, and it gets bad press from shoddy QC. Plus, often you can get a Red for the same price or cheaper which at least has had the marketing behind it to make people aware of the camera.

[Stuart Brereton]

Are you both in agreement on the C300/2's design being unlikable?

Any camera that is designed to have the viewfinder on the back, instead of the side, is not a professional camera in my opinion. Also Canon really made some strange choices regarding their codecs. The C300 II is either 8 bit or RAW, and nothing in between.

 

Blackmagic is a non-starter, it seems, for most professional shoots.

 

But why?

 

Rightly or wrongly, Blackmagic has a reputation for being a bit cheap and nasty. Everything I've heard about the Mini Pro says that this is not true, but the reputation remains.

[Samuel Berger]

Any camera that is designed to have the viewfinder on the back, instead of the side, is not a professional camera in my opinion. Also Canon really made some strange choices regarding their codecs. The C300 II is either 8 bit or RAW, and nothing in between.

 

 

 

Rightly or wrongly, Blackmagic has a reputation for being a bit cheap and nasty. Everything I've heard about the Mini Pro says that this is not true, but the reputation remains.

 

That's incredible. I heard a thing or two about quality control issues and the user base being unhappy about BMD screwing over the resale value with the loyalty program and about releases being delayed. But the footage always looked good to me.

 

Well...what would you buy?

[Adrian Sierkowski]

My camera choices:

 

Sony FS7 (Doc/Corp/Reality/Bradcast/Run n Gun)

Alexa Mini (Features, Commercial, Music Video, basically anything)

Red Helium (things requiring VFX, producers who like marketing more)

 

Alexa Mini; though PRICY is the best investment at current time I think.

[Landon D. Parks]

In the URSA Mini range, I've seen the EVA-1 footage, and it looks really, really good. Plus, you have the professional video division of Panasonic behind it, with literally tens of years of experience in making cameras durable, and exhibiting great QC. The dual native ISO is a great feature.

 

As much as I want to like Blackmagic, they don't have the same experience in making professional cameras as the big manufacturers do.

[Landon D. Parks]

Alexa Mini; though PRICY is the best investment at current time I think.

 

I suppose it would depend on what type of investment your planning to make. While it might make since to invest in an Alexa Mini - isn't that camera around $50,000 for the base unit? That is a LARGE investment for a camera system, unless you're planning to put it to a lot of use in the next couple of years. Camera's like Arris, F55, Reds, etc. make much more sense a rental solution rather than a purchase. For even the average cinematographer, by the time you pay off the investment on a $50,000 camera it's going to be obsolete. Rental houses can usually return their investment, which in my opinion is why these cameras are priced as they are. They are not priced for purchasing by individuals.

 

Same reason why its hard to find a Blackmagic at a rental shop - they are priced for purchase, and in many cases - its cheaper to purchase one than to rent one for a shoot.

 

And likely the reason why you don't see BMD cameras and such on professional shoots is simply because the camera rental budget is so small in proportion to the cost of the project, that it makes little sense to try and scrimp in the camera dept. You use what everyone else is using. What is tested to have worked, etc. BMD could have had this market as well, but their price-point basically precludes them to small projects.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Landon D. Parks

[Stuart Brereton]

Well...what would you buy?

I wouldn't.

 

Owning a camera only makes sense if you can keep it working often enough to pay it off 12-18 months, or if it's cheap enough that you don't care about paying it off entirely before it's obsolete. The market I'm in requires more expensive packages, and a lot of flexibility in terms of what camera I use. The shows I've done this year have equalled over $100k in rentals, but it's all been with different camera systems.

 

The cameras I would use:

 

Arri Alexa/Alexa Mini

Sony F55

Sony FS7

 

Sometimes I shoot with RED cameras, but it's not usually my decision.

[Samuel Berger]

Yeah I think I should stick to what I already own. Problem is, that Ursa Mini 4K is PL mount so I only use it with a M42 to PL adapter. I'm never going to be able to afford PL glass.

I need to sell that thing.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Sigma has some pretty affordable Cine-Zooms in PL. Tonika also has the 11~16

[Samuel Berger]

Stuart makes a good point, though. I saw the Sigmas and Tokina and the Rokinons and they're all pretty expensive. Doesn't make much sense to spend all that on lenses. Mostly I use it with an Angenieux 25-250, but at T3.9 it's not really ideal for most indoor projects.

 

If the buyer already owns PL glass I'm sure he'll find use for it.

[Landon D. Parks]

The Sigma cine-zooms appear to be great lenses - but they are almost $4,000 a pop - and you really need the set of two in order to complete a standard zoom range. Basically, in terms of cheap PL mount, $8,000 is about as 'cheap' as you can go.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

I think the Tonika comes in around 2K or so for the PL version, so 10K for 11 through 100mm isn't bad!

[Samuel Berger]

I think the Tonika comes in around 2K or so for the PL version, so 10K for 11 through 100mm isn't bad!

 

If you have the camera to match it, yes. I get the feeling the Mini 4K will be a hard sell to potential employers, so I was thinking of going for the C300 MK2. But the advice on this forum so far has been nearly 100% against it.

Mind you, I was going to buy a 2-Perf sync sound camera and couldn't afford it because I'd have to buy all the lenses that the seller had, and since I haven't sold my Sergio Leone camera I wouldn't be able to do it.

 

But I can buy a C300 Mk2 on credit and do the payments.

I personally love the eye candy the camera produces, but I need to think with my brain, not my eyes.

[Robin R Probyn]

The C300 II took a major price reduction (it was over priced to begin with) when the Fs7 (which is under priced) began to take over its market.. almost 50% I think.. at the prices now.. and the fact you like the picture .. and are ok with the design.. then yes why not buy it.. AND it fits your market..you could look at second hand camera,s too.. f5 or f55 are pretty cheap now.. and as solid state usually in pretty good condition .. not like the old drum /tape days.. nothing to wear out really..

 

The C300 is a Marmite camera.. you either love it or hate it.. its an odd design for a pro camera.. you will need a base plate.. as would most camera,s now.. but you would need a 3rd party EVF for sure..unless you are ok working totally off the monitor.. but they exist ..Zacuto is popular.. so a couple thousand for pimping out fully.. rods, Mattbox, shoulder plate.. maybe another small on camera monitor..the C300 ruled supreme in the HD years as it was s35 sensor 50 Mbps and the F3 only 35.. ie non broadcast. Both had the EVF at the back !!. Fs7 came along and killed them..C300II came out same design. ! . then eventually the C700.. not enough and way too late.. they have probably sold 10 of them..

 

The Fujinon MK zooms are probably the best bet .. Sigma zooms are not all par focal.. and the 50-100 breathes like me running a marathon ..

 

Production as just worried about everything.. thats their job I guess.. they have a herd mentality .. if they had good results and no post problems from one or two cameras they want to stick with it..or stuff their friends have produced .. Arri Alexa for eg.. safety in numbers.. its just one less thing for them to worry about .. how ever good a camera is.. if its not on their list.. they literally have them.. they will just reject it 100%.. its tricky as freelancer when new camera,s come out. if you follow your heart you can end up with an expensive door stop...

 

But make sure its going to make you a return.. eg for Stuart were the camera is always changing and its all rental obviously not worth buying one camera..

[Samuel Berger]

Thanks, Robin. I will keep all this in mind.

 

I've just looked at the zoom you've mentioned and it's only available in Sony E mount. I guess it won't work with the C300 Mk2.

 

STAR TREK CONTINUES was shot on a F3, so I'm familiar with the results. I just don't trust the workflow and Tyler has mentioned it enough times that I really don't want a Sony. Not to mention, the company screwed me over in 2002 and I'm never going to buy anything from them.

 

But very good advice, sir, many thanks.

[Robin R Probyn]

ah yes thats true .. there are two in the MK set.. they have just recently actually had f5/55 FZ mounts made by two 3rd party manufactures by popular demand.. seems politics didn't allow fuijnon make an EF mount !.. are there no adaptors though ..?

 

Dont buy an F3.. a good camera .. but way out dated now for a freelancer jobbing DP.. you would need an ext recorder for everything ..Tyler aside.. there are a few million people getting very good results from Sony camera,s..all the footage is green though of course..

 

C300II is a very well accepted workhorse camera.. with a nice picture.. price is relatively cheap.. if you are ok with the rather odd "kettle" camera design.. I think some buyers also have alot of stills EF lenses they can use..

[Samuel Berger]

 

Dont buy an F3.. a good camera .. but way out dated now for a freelancer jobbing DP.. you would need an ext recorder for everything ..Tyler aside.. there are a few million people getting very good results from Sony camera,s..all the footage is green though of course..

 

I think I know why. Electrical engineers will appreciate the difficulty of nubbing together a regurgitative purwell and a superaminative Wennel "sprocket". Indeed, this proved to be a stumbling block to further development until, with the Black Magic camera sensors, it was found that the use of anhydrous nagling pins enabled a kyptonastic boiling shim to be tankered.

 

Undoubtedly, the Black Magic sensor has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating Nofer Trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent S-KOR motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration.

 

But if you don't use an IRCUT filter, it's all pink.

[Stuart Brereton]

all the footage is green though of course..

 

OSAKA GREEN

[Samuel Berger]

OSAKA GREEN

 

Okay now I'm going to be paranoid that I won't get any work because my images aren't green enough.

 

But, with BMD, pink is the new green!

[Stuart Brereton]

Samuel,

 

I'd say the sensible choices are either a Canon C300 II, or a Sony FS7. Both are accepted cameras, and widely used. The dealbreaker for me with the Canon is the lack of a 10 bit codec when shooting 4k. If that doesn't matter to you, then either camera is a good choice.

[Samuel Berger]

Samuel,

 

I'd say the sensible choices are either a Canon C300 II, or a Sony FS7. Both are accepted cameras, and widely used. The dealbreaker for me with the Canon is the lack of a 10 bit codec when shooting 4k. If that doesn't matter to you, then either camera is a good choice.

 

Thanks, Stuart. I'm looking into it now. I do like the previous advice of simply renting the stuff, but I have a feeling I'll never be able to learn if I did that. The digital stuff is pretty hard for me. I feel that what I need to do is set my eyes on one system and stick to it and learn it. And of course, do the research. Buy once, cry once.

 

Edited to correct the name spelling. I regularly correspond with three people named Stewart, please forgive the occasional lapse.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Samuel Berger

[Samuel Berger]

Real quick, any thoughts on this?

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1340801-REG/canon_2244c002_eos_c200_24_105_kit.html

 

The C200 seems similar to the C300 but cheaper due to no broadcasting codec.