Can we talk about "The Crown"?

[Stuart Brereton]

You haven't said what kind of work you're intending to do with it.

[Samuel Berger]

You haven't said what kind of work you're intending to do with it.

 

Feature work (mostly indie) and VFX (I'm a Nuke compositor).

[Stuart Brereton]

Won't the lack of a proper, high quality codec affect your VFX work? Or are you intending to shoot RawLite?

[Samuel Berger]

Won't the lack of a proper, high quality codec affect your VFX work? Or are you intending to shoot RawLite?

 

I was thinking of shooting RAW dng just like with the Ursa Mini 4K.

 

if that's not possible with a C200 and an Atomos, that again shows how little I know.

 

Maybe I'm being foolish in jumping from the known (BMD) to the unknown (Canon) just out of fear of not being perceived as professional.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Samuel Berger

[Tyler Purcell]

There is a good side and a bad side of "widely used" cameras.

The good side is that there is a demand. The bad side is that EVERYONE HAS ONE, which drives DOWN the price you can get for them.

For instance, everyone and their cat has a Red dragon, it seems ubiquitous in Hollywood. Even Alexa Mini's are becoming so popular, you've got dozens of choices right on Sharegrid. So where it's great to have what everyone else has, there is also a problem with buying expensive cameras you won't be able to repay. A fully dressed up C300MKII is around the same price as a well setup FS7, which is A LOT MORE MONEY then a BRAND NEW URSA Mini Pro.

 

My philosophy has always been to own what others don't own. Everyone went the DSLR route, I went the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema route. Everyone went the Arri SR and 416 route, I went the Aaton XTR route. Everyone went the Premiere route, I went the Avid route. There is ALWAYS going to be a demand for "The other" piece of equipment and when you're the only guy of maybe a few with one, then you've got the market cornered. Yes it's more difficult to convince people to shoot with something they're unfamiliar with, but the URSA Mini Pro is NOT difficult to use, it's far easier than any of the Sony or Canon cameras with their incomprehensible menu system and in the case of Sony, an entirely different way of shooting. I will say for the record the C300MKII is a brilliant looking camera, blows the Sony's out of the water in every way. The only better looking imager is the Alexa and the only "cheaper" but still good looking imager, is the URSA mini 4.6k. I don't put the Sony's anywhere near those cameras, they're in a completely different pile.

 

The URSA Mini Pro has 3 problems... It's missing an OLPF and IR filter, which is built-in to the C300MKII and pretty much all of the higher end Sony's. The 3rd problem is the FPN at higher then 1600 ISO, but honestly if you're shooting at more than 1600 ISO on a regular basis, umm... get faster glass lol. So the OLPF/IR issue is solved already, there is a 3rd party kit that slides right in. So that's not a big one anymore.

 

So yea... I mean that's why I like the URSA Mini Pro! :P

[Robin R Probyn]

 

I was thinking of shooting RAW dng just like with the Ursa Mini 4K.

 

if that's not possible with a C200 and an Atomos, that again shows how little I know.

 

Maybe I'm being foolish in jumping from the known (BMD) to the unknown (Canon) just out of fear of not being perceived as professional.

 

 

Re perceived as professional.. I don't want to be accused of snobbery again ! but the C200 is a bit on the prosumer limit.. apart from pretty low level corp work.. as an A camera I think many productions will not see it as a "pro" camera.. I know people who put them on gimbals but not as an A camera.. the C300II is for sure classed as Pro and often an A camera for broadcast and mid to high end ish corps.. you get what you pay for..

 

Tyler ..I see what your saying.. but purely as a freelancer gun for hire..wanting to work on stuff of a higher grade than they are now.. buying the camera that no one is asking for, for that work, will not further that career or pay the rent.. :).. these camera,s are nothing like the price of high end camera,s of 10 years ago.. if you have the work, they pay off very quickly ..maintenance is very very low.. really your average broadcast/corp dp out there will get alot more work from an fs7/C300II than a pocket or URSA.. a racing driver with a golf cart ,although unlike the other cars..will not win any races..

 

Again just for the record.. still don't get the idea to shoot with a Sony camera .. "its entirely different way of shooting".. how so..? EI is the same as Arri /RED or any camera that has EI.. is just a concept not a Sony technique or priority software.. Ive shot with Amira and Pana LT in the recent past and didn't do anything fundamentally differently .. what is this Sony Voodoo.. except for the Green of course .. which is actually a feature BTW..

[Samuel Berger]

what is this Sony Voodoo.. except for the Green of course .. which is actually a feature BTW..

 

Robin thanks for the reply. I did some online sleuthing and it seems the green reputation now belongs to the Alexa. I even watched a video comparing the image from the Alexa to the Ursa Mini Pro and the commentary said the Alexa had a very green cast.

 

As for the rest of your post, where does it end? I mean, if I get the Canon C300 Mark II in EF, will the EF mount be seen as prosumer? Will someone actually say "If you were a real pro you'd use PL mounts"?

 

One thing I noticed is that the C300 Mark II and the UMP are both in the "approved" list of cameras for Netflix partners. But the C200 wasn't. I'm unsure why that is. It shouldn't concern me as I don't work for them, but it makes me wonder if that list reflects public opinion of what a "pro" camera is.

 

https://backlothelp.netflix.com/hc/en-us/articles/217237077-Production-and-Post-Production-Requirements-v2-1

[Stuart Brereton]

I did some online sleuthing and it seems the green reputation now belongs to the Alexa. I even watched a video comparing the image from the Alexa to the Ursa Mini Pro and the commentary said the Alexa had a very green cast.

 

When I first started shooting with the Alexa, back in 2012, it did have a slight green cast. We used to set the camera 'Tint' control to compensate. More modern Alexas don't have the same problem.

 

In the case of Sony, an entirely different way of shooting.

It doesn't matter how often you say this Tyler, it still doesn't make it true.

[Robin R Probyn]

It must mean the C300II / UMP can shoot "true" 4K 4096 17-9 ratio.. Ive only ever shot corps for Netflix, but even they had to be 17-9 which I could get on my F5 (with the internal 4K rec option ).. even if I had toted a fully rigged Alexa studio down to their offices I would have been turned away..

 

Im not going to be shooting Netflix original dramas anyway soon.. but I could with my camera at a scrap .. the f55 has had a great boost from the Netflix 17-9 4096 iron clad rule..

 

I dont think EF lenses would be a problem on a C300II .. compared to turning up with a C200.. there are plenty of EF mount "pro" lenses.. depending on the project and the director gear knowledge .. turning up with only stills lenses might be a problem ..apart from being a pain to work with.. focus and Iris wise..the lens I own ..Canon CN7 cine zoom is also available EF mount (its a Canon !) and is a standard work horse zoom for doc/corp/broadcast also all their prime lenses can be EF..

 

The Mini Pro is undoubtedly a good camera.. my advise is only from a freelance jobbing cameraman's view point.. TV broadcast and mid to higher end (ish) corps.. actually this year alot more corp than broadcast .. I have never once had a request for a BMC camera..RED or Alexa for that matter.. Panasonic LT once this year.. they supplied the camera and was specially for the 5000 ISO function..(talk about confusing menus ! the Sony is very simple in comparison ).... more than half has been 4K.. mostly 3840 16-9.. every request ,camera wise has been f5/55. fs7. and C300.. (the C300II request have been fine with the F5 as an alternative) apart from the Pana LT shoot everything single shoot Ive done this year has been my f5.. with sometimes fs7 as a B camera .. one was 3 x fs7II .. so for the DIT they wanted to keep it all XQD cards rather than my f5 SxS..but I would say the f5 acceptance has been hugely lifted by the run away success of the fs7..

 

Yes I believe I mentioned the Arri green way back.. hence my work with the Sony elves .. deep in the bowels of Tokyo.. to perfect the Tokyo Green TG ™ filter for the Venice ..heavily influenced by the legacy Osaka Green pioneered by Lord Brereton OBE

Edited December 31, 2017 by Robin R Probyn

[Tyler Purcell]

It must mean the C300II / UMP can shoot "true" 4K 4096 17-9 ratio..

So does the URSA mini pro, PLUS you get RAW with it, the C300MKII only shoots 10 bit 4:2:2 @ 410Mbps XAVC-I in an IFRAME codec. The URSA Mini records 12 and 10 bit 444 and 422 Pro Res from UHD down to 1080p up to 60FPS. Plus built-in, with no external, no add-on's, no special anything, records 12 bit Cinema DNG RAW at up to 4.6k.

 

So if you want 8 bit 4:2:2 i-frame for an interview? got ya covered. Want 10 bit 4:2:2 i-frame but don't wanna break the bank on bit rate, got ya covered. You want 444 color space, but don't want 12 bit, got ya covered. You want different versions of raw, compressed, uncompressed, got ya covered.

 

Sony, Panasonic, Canon, these guys don't have those options at all. They have long-gop options, which are worthless to anyone who isn't uploading directly to youtube, but that's it. Most of the cameras don't even offer raw and when they do, it's some oddball JEPG nonsense or some specilty hardware.

 

I dont think EF lenses would be a problem on a C300II ..

It's a huge problem, have you looked at the pricing on the canon EOS mount cine style zooms? They're like $18 - $20k used! poop man, for that much money, I can have a set of Zeiss standard speeds AND an old-school PL mount zoom.

 

The EOS mount also has another issue, when you invest in glass, you're investing in a mount standard that pretty much nothing else but Canon still cameras are compatible with. So 4 years down the road you want the new XYZ camera and it's PL mount, now what do you do? In the case of Samuel, like me he also likes film cameras... so there goes any EOS glass.

 

Best thing about the URSA Mini Pro... $249 lens mounts. You choose what you want... B4, EOS, Nikon, PL, you can get them all for under a grand. So now you can buy any lenses you want, similar to the F5/F55.

 

The Mini Pro is undoubtedly a good camera.. my advise is only from a freelance jobbing cameraman's view point.. TV broadcast and mid to higher end (ish) corps.. actually this year alot more corp than broadcast .. I have never once had a request for a BMC camera..RED or Alexa for that matter..

I don't think Samuel is making corporate videos. Besides, I do corp, training and industrials non-stop, I've never once had someone TELL ME what camera I can and can't use. Samuel, like me, is a filmmaker... He'll be using the camera in a creative way for his own projects and to help other's create their own projects. Also, I've had little to no difficulty convincing my clients to shoot on whatever I want.

[Robin R Probyn]

Yes I included the URSA.. UMP is that camera.. Sony has 10 bit 422 XAVC I.. no..? Yes I know the price of the lenses.. but you will get your money back.. but you can also use stills lenses on the C300,s.. its always need one of their selling points.. Im just saying depending on the shoot/work you aspire to.. it could be a problem if thats all you have.. and they are a pain to work with anyway..

I mean at some stage you have do have to pay out alot on gear ,if you want to move up..and charge a rate that allows a decent life style.. I bought a CN7 new for alot of money .. but it paid for itself in about 16 months. calculated on $300 s day rental.. I had no work for it the day I bought it.. you got to spend to get decent money back..it has since and continues to make me money, same with the camera.. I could have bought a C200 and room full of cheaper lenses.. but have no work..? all this expensive gear will make you money when you look past the initial expense .. all tax deductible too..but yes you do have to buy the right gear for your market..

 

Im not sure what work Sam wants to get into.. obviously he is wanting to change the work he has..or wants to get back into.. I think everyone is in agreement ..if you are only doing your own stuff.. sure you have the luxury of shooting on a wind up Bolex if you want.. but that is very hard way to make a living.. out of the main stream..you need rich family or partner .. or be one of the .00001 % that gets lucky and ends up making commercial feature films .. as I said my advise is purely from a freelance cameraman s point.. and in that market the "right " camera is very important..

[Samuel Berger]

 

It doesn't matter how often you say this Tyler, it still doesn't make it true.

 

It might be unfair to judge from Vimeo and Youtube, but the skin tones from the Sonys never seem to look as good as some of the other cameras. Tyler might be talking about the difficulty of getting that correctly, nailing the white balance, etc., but if I remember correctly he mentioned workflow issues in post as well.

 

Tyler also talked at some point about the difficulty of working with the C300 Mark II in a feature, and how one needs to work in a world of presets, etc., so that sounds discouraging, BUT, the main difference here is that the C300 Mark II produces images that even I loved, even though it's not film. So I need to weigh that in as well, that the Sony workflow doesn't seem to produce a rewarding image like the C300II does.

 

I believe him that working with a Sony is different. It would be different enough for me, anyway.

 

One thing, though, Canon has already dropped the price of the C300 Mark II TWICE! It started off at $16,000 I think. Now it's down to $9,999. The "unprofessional" C200 has some features not on the C300II so I'm left wondering if they will have a Mark III at NAB this year, causing the price to go down. This would be a serious hit.

 

 

I don't think Samuel is making corporate videos. Besides, I do corp, training and industrials non-stop, I've never once had someone TELL ME what camera I can and can't use. Samuel, like me, is a filmmaker... He'll be using the camera in a creative way for his own projects and to help other's create their own projects. Also, I've had little to no difficulty convincing my clients to shoot on whatever I want.

 

Thank you for the kind words. :-) Yes this is what I intend to do. Although I'm at a moment in my life where I have to focus on the money more, which is why I'm opening myself up to learning digital video workflows. I do love the Ursa Mini Pro, but I still find the images from the C300II more beautiful. Also I hang out at BMCUser a lot and people are always saying they have to return their cameras three times before they get one that works. I guess I've been lucky so far. My BMPCC is awesome and my Mini 4K hasn't caused any panic yet.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

I would deff test the C300 before you buy. Personally I have never had a good time working on that camera; nor getting skintones i really liked out of it. 10K is a fair bit to sink (more than that honestly with accessories) try to grab one for a weekend if you can.

[Samuel Berger]

Yes I included the URSA.. UMP is that camera.. Sony has 10 bit 422 XAVC I.. no..? Yes I know the price of the lenses.. but you will get your money back.. but you can also use stills lenses on the C300,s.. its always need one of their selling points.. Im just saying depending on the shoot/work you aspire to.. it could be a problem if thats all you have.. and they are a pain to work with anyway..

I mean at some stage you have do have to pay out alot on gear ,if you want to move up..and charge a rate that allows a decent life style.. I bought a CN7 new for alot of money .. but it paid for itself in about 16 months. calculated on $300 s day rental.. I had no work for it the day I bought it.. you got to spend to get decent money back..it has since and continues to make me money, same with the camera.. I could have bought a C200 and room full of cheaper lenses.. but have no work..? all this expensive gear will make you money when you look past the initial expense .. all tax deductible too..but yes you do have to buy the right gear for your market..

 

Im not sure what work Sam wants to get into.. obviously he is wanting to change the work he has..or wants to get back into.. I think everyone is in agreement ..if you are only doing your own stuff.. sure you have the luxury of shooting on a wind up Bolex if you want.. but that is very hard way to make a living.. out of the main stream..you need rich family or partner .. or be one of the .00001 % that gets lucky and ends up making commercial feature films .. as I said my advise is purely from a freelance cameraman s point.. and in that market the "right " camera is very important..

 

Good stuff, and the only green you're getting is a green arrow from me. I think everyone has been very helpful in this thread, even if it means we can't talk about "The Crown". ;-)

 

My market is indie feature work and VFX, I'm not saying I wouldn't shoot commercials or whatever paid work came my way, but my focus on film means I never learned the stuff I needed to compete with young folks already doing video work.

[Stuart Brereton]

 

It might be unfair to judge from Vimeo and Youtube, but the skin tones from the Sonys never seem to look as good as some of the other cameras. Tyler might be talking about the difficulty of getting that correctly, nailing the white balance, etc., but if I remember correctly he mentioned workflow issues in post as well.

 

I believe him that working with a Sony is different. It would be different enough for me, anyway.

It's almost impossible to judge how any camera reproduces color or tone without knowing how it was lit, exposed and color-timed, particularly if you are looking at a YouTube clip.

 

Tyler's woes with Sony cameras were almost all his own doing, and have been comprehensively explained in other threads. His complaint here, that you have to 'work in a completely different way' applies really only to himself, as the workflow really isn't that different to any other camera, and is extensively used all over the world.

[Robin R Probyn]

We can talk about the Crown .. . it was shot with a Sony F55..the image has been admired the world over.. I hope this revelation doesn't send Tyler screaming naked down Sunset Blvd .. of course it was shot it in a totally different way.. my contacts at Sony have told me the lenses were attached to the EVF .. and the operator looked down the lens .. the image was sent to Quentin T, who transferred if frame by frame to 70mm.. at least the ones he liked.. it was then dubbed to BW Hi8.. and eventually hand painted by virgins at a temple in Kyoto.. a final grade was conducted by the Emperor under the auspices of the imperial house hold.. frankly its the only way to do it with Sony cams..

[Stuart Brereton]

a final grade was conducted by the Emperor under the auspices of the imperial house hold.. frankly its the only way to do it with Sony cams..

I believe the famous 'Akihito Grade' is soon to be available as a 3D LUT and customizable plug-in for Resolve.

 

AKI-COLOR

[Samuel Berger]

It's almost impossible to judge how any camera reproduces color or tone without knowing how it was lit, exposed and color-timed, particularly if you are looking at a YouTube clip.

 

Tyler's woes with Sony cameras were almost all his own doing, and have been comprehensively explained in other threads. His complaint here, that you have to 'work in a completely different way' applies really only to himself, as the workflow really isn't that different to any other camera, and is extensively used all over the world.

 

I hope you understand, most people are scared to use a Sony because you can't operate one without a PHD.

 

All joking aside, I'm always stunned at how lucky some of you are, that you don't feel the pressure to need to own a camera. I've given it serious thought, and even though I respect your earlier advice, I do need to own one. You're younger than me, so you might not understand this, but I feel like I'm on limited time to get with the program.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Samuel Berger

[Miguel Angel]

Regarding the difficulty of working with a C300 II and its world of settings..

 

I shot a commercial with a bunch of them without having seen the camera ever.. I just turned it on, shot a couple of tests, saw what I liked and what I didn’t like and that was it.. off I went with several cameras to shoot the commercial.

 

What I didn’t like was the design of the camera, very akward!

 

Have a lovely day!

[Tyler Purcell]

We can talk about the Crown .. . it was shot with a Sony F55..the image has been admired the world over..

Again, professional productions with millions of dollars being spent on lighting, lensing and post production, shares zero... and I mean absolutely NOTHING with the world Samuel and I live in.

 

So to use the "crown" or any multi-million dollar Woody Allen film (F65) or big VFX movie like 'Oblivion', as an "example" of the cameras capabilities, is flat out stupid. The only way to really see what these cameras look like is to go outside, shoot with one, apply a base LUT and upload the files to youtube.

 

Do the same test with a C300MKII or Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro. The difference is night and day, it's not even in the same ballpark. The C300MKII stuff I shot, needed the simplest of LUT's and it looked fantastic. Every single frame was perfect. Same goes for everything I've shot with the URSA series cameras. I don't have $50k to pay for a lighting team for a 2 day shoot, or $5k to pay for a colorist who "knows how to grade Sony cameras" because if you read the trades like I do, they discuss the specialty of grading Sony cameras. What THE VAST MAJORITY of content producers have is NO TIME and NO MONEY.

 

I have to light, shoot, edit and color almost everything I shoot. I don't have the time for an image to come back messed up, even though in the viewfinder it looked fine, but some setting 7 menu levels deep was off. I don't have the time to hand-grade every single shot, the color balance has to be perfect on set and I can't have a camera that limits me on what white balance I use on what LOG mode. I need a camera system that does what I want without any difficulty and that's what Blackmagic have designed and it's why I own their cameras.

 

If you guys lit, shot, edited and colored your own work, you'd be on the same bandwagon. Maybe someday I will get lucky and strike it rich, but alas until that day happens, I'm gonna keep working with my shitty Blackmagic cameras and churn out dozens of products a month for the sake of telling stories and enjoying the art of filmmaking. It's not my job, it's my life and my passion.

[Miguel Angel]

Again, professional productions with millions of dollars being spent on lighting, lensing and post production, shares zero... and I mean absolutely NOTHING with the world Samuel and I live in.

 

The only way to really see what these cameras look like is to go outside, shoot with one, apply a base LUT and upload the files to youtube.

 

 

I think that somebody did that 4 years ago and came up with this:

 

 

It looks great and it doesn't even have a LUT! it was shot with natural light.

[Robin R Probyn]

Come on man .. there is a ton of footage from f5/55 fs7 out there that looks fantastic.. even shot by blind fools ,high on crack.. you are the only person in the world who cant get a decent image from a Sony camera .. surely your own dignity will ease this nonsense ..

[Robin R Probyn]

On second thoughts.. who cares.. happy new year !

[Stuart Brereton]

or $5k to pay for a colorist who "knows how to grade Sony cameras" because if you read the trades like I do, they discuss the specialty of grading Sony cameras.

 

 

Not every job comes with a huge post production schedule. Some TV movies color-time in just 2 days. There's very little time to do anything except just apply a LUT. If Sony cameras really looked as bad as you say, no-one would use them.

 

In all the time I've been shooting with Sonys, I've never once heard a colorist say anything about having to work differently.

 

Tyler, I have hundreds of framegrabs here on a hard drive, taken from Sony originated dailies, all of which have had nothing done to them except a 'base LUT' applied. All of them look perfectly presentable. I'll be happy to post some if you want, then you can see for yourself.

[David Mullen ASC]

I've never heard a colorist mention having any particular problem grading Sony footage.