Can we talk about "The Crown"?

[Tyler Purcell]

​Aha .. this could be where your problems lie then.. you have previously said you like to get the image as near to perfect as possible when you shoot.. and your very fussy about it..?.. if you are shooting Slog as above.. no wonder you have problems ..

Well yea, get it right in camera and you don't have to do anything else. I also stay away from REC709, mainly due to how much highlight protection exposure compensation is necessary.

 

Where I will admit, the workflow for my blackmagic cameras isn't anywhere near "client" friendly, a base LUT applied on a video layer higher then my content, generally gives enough "correction" for me to feel secure in editing with the original LOG files without processing them.

 

At the same time, with the F5/F55 XAVC-I footage in Avid, it's nearly impossible to get a decent look out it. So you're forced to process everything in either Sony's proprietary software or a coloring tool like DaVinci. Yes it's true Premiere does have a better LUT system then Avid does, but at a huge cost of real-time CPU rendering. Premiere is not optimized to use the GPU for anyting else but non real-time rendering.

 

These issues aren't really important for the stuff I shoot. These issues are HUGE when you're a "DP" for hire on smaller productions. When you go out for 6 hours for a shoot and they want the media right there on site after you're done shooting, which happens to me A LOT. I have to tell whoever I give the footage to, how to make it look good and I can do that with Canon, Blackmagic, Red and Alexa footage no problem... but as I've one what, 3 commercial Sony shoots (FS7, F5, F55) I still have no idea how to make it look good.

[Tyler Purcell]

You have quite obviously avoided my question. How do you know how those YouTube clips were graded? Simple answer is: You don't.

No, we don't know how they were graded. Your point is that the grade makes all the difference. My point is that it shouldn't matter. If every time you see a certain camera's images, they look like crap to you... then what do you do? Go buy one?

[Tyler Purcell]

I sure wish the C200 was seen as "professional", after seeing Philip Bloom using it I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Ohh it's far from it. I would consider the C300MKII a toy as well, it's nearly there, but not quite.

[Samuel Berger]

Ohh it's far from it. I would consider the C300MKII a toy as well, it's nearly there, but not quite.

 

That's...an expensive toy, sir. ;-) But it's fine, all cameras are toys, some are just more fun to play with than others. I've decided to go with the Ursa Mini Pro, anyway. Already in my cart at B&H. Along with a set of Rokinon DS lenses. If I still feel the same way about it tomorrow, I'll checkout.

 

What do you think? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1258892-REG/rokinon_cine_ds_6_lens.html

[Robin R Probyn]

C200 no 10 bit recording.. NG for broadcast and well pretty much anything that will pay you a decent rate.. you need 10 bit recording these days as a minimum .. esp anything Log.. I know it has 12 bit RAW but need to convert.. generally another step that alot of productions dont want to bother with..

 

Its the old thing.. buy the camera you need.. not the one you want..

[Robin R Probyn]

Well yea, get it right in camera and you don't have to do anything else. I also stay away from REC709, mainly due to how much highlight protection exposure compensation is necessary.

 

Where I will admit, the workflow for my blackmagic cameras isn't anywhere near "client" friendly, a base LUT applied on a video layer higher then my content, generally gives enough "correction" for me to feel secure in editing with the original LOG files without processing them.

 

At the same time, with the F5/F55 XAVC-I footage in Avid, it's nearly impossible to get a decent look out it. So you're forced to process everything in either Sony's proprietary software or a coloring tool like DaVinci. Yes it's true Premiere does have a better LUT system then Avid does, but at a huge cost of real-time CPU rendering. Premiere is not optimized to use the GPU for anyting else but non real-time rendering.

 

These issues aren't really important for the stuff I shoot. These issues are HUGE when you're a "DP" for hire on smaller productions. When you go out for 6 hours for a shoot and they want the media right there on site after you're done shooting, which happens to me A LOT. I have to tell whoever I give the footage to, how to make it look good and I can do that with Canon, Blackmagic, Red and Alexa footage no problem... but as I've one what, 3 commercial Sony shoots (FS7, F5, F55) I still have no idea how to make it look good.

 

 

OK another problem.. you shouldn't be trying to grade log footage in Avid.. it should be in a grading, not editing, platform .. like Resolve or Lightroom.. otherwise its back to the same old thing.. you personally cant get a decent image from Fs7/F5/55. yet many thousands of people can .. in REC709 STD / Slog 2,3..or 16 not RAW.. but you cannot...if everyone say, on a farm ,can drive the tractor .. but one guy just cant get the hang of it..puts it in the ditch every time .. is the tractor crap.. or is that guy, for what ever reasons, just not up to driving it..?

[Mark Dunn]

 

 

it should be in a grading, not editing, platform .. like... Lightroom..

Thanks for mentioning this- the possibility hadn't occurred to me- one of the most practical things I've read on here for a while.

The only problem is, exporting all those TIFFs may break my computer.

I think Tyler's point might be that he hasn't time for the separate processes so needs to grade and cut in the same environment, if that's the right word.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Mark Dunn

[Robin R Probyn]

Thanks for mentioning this- the possibility hadn't occurred to me- one of the most practical things I've read on here for a while.

The only problem is, exporting all those TIFFs may break my computer.

I think Tyler's point might be that he hasn't time for the separate processes so needs to grade and cut in the same environment, if that's the right word.

 

 

I believe you can do both in resolve..? Im not up totally on the techie stuff.. but the usual lifts etc of an edit platform don't work with ,log curves.. move one bit and all the other stuff goes out of whack.. everyone I know working with log is grading in Resolve.. it seems to be taking over the world .

[Justin Hayward]

Miguel Angel posted a perfectly fine example of what the camera is capable of under available light and Tyler said it sucked. So now we are arguing who has better taste. My favorite color is blue so when Tyler says every camera should have a native warmth... well, I disagree. Who is wrong? Obviously its easy to mix up our subjective taste as objective fact, but it is, of course, a pointless argument.

[Robin R Probyn]

But the more basic argument was Tyler,s assertion ..ages ago ..that Sony camera,s.. specifically the F55 with which he had had trouble with..were "crap" and incapable of producing a "decent" picture..its reared its head again here as the visually world acclaimed "The crown " was shot on an F55.. but yes it does seem to be a pointless educational task..

[Michael Rodin]

It's not really about whether it's dedicated DI software or an online suite, it's about the controls used. Yes, "lift-gamma-gain" we've inherited from telecines isn't particularily suited for log grading. Tools with more isolated ranges ("shadows-midtones-highlights") are more practical. Or use the equivalent of development time and printer lights, which's "exposure offset" and "contrast". Of color software, Baselight has arguably the best Log tools, but they all have some.

 

As to cameras... It's never been much of a problem to create or remove some overall color cast. Sometimes you need lens filtration, especially under warm lighting, but very rarely it's impossible. It's the subtle color contrasts and saturation that cameras reproduce differently - some have badly optimized filters/primaries and produce "flat, "solid" looking hues where others retain color contrast. Sonys - F23, SRW9000PL, etc - actually have very decent color reproduction, they (all) have issues, but it's not the color cast...

[Stuart Brereton]

No, we don't know how they were graded. Your point is that the grade makes all the difference. My point is that it shouldn't matter. If every time you see a certain camera's images, they look like crap to you... then what do you do? Go buy one?

That's not my point at all. You offered up one clip and said it looked awful, and that was the fault of the camera. Then you offered another clip and said it looked great, but that it had been heavily graded. The truth is, as you've just admitted, you have no idea how they were graded, and you just cherry picked a couple of clips to make a point without offering any supporting information. That's a total BS argument, and you know it.

[Matt Thomas]

So ya I thought the series is pretty good.

[Samuel Berger]

So ya I thought the series is pretty good.

 

It might be, the trailer shows off great cinematography, but it's an unpleasant trailer to watch. Most everyone in it was annoying and the Queen seems unlikable and in a state of perpetual constipation. I hope the show is better than the trailer.

 

I did like seeing a Bolex 8 seconds into it.

[David Mullen ASC]

My two favorite episodes were centered on Churchill - one was about the deadly London fog of 1952 that killed 4000 people, the other was about the portrait that Parliament commissioned, a great two-person drama as Churchill and his portrait painter discuss art and discover just how much is revealed personally by an artist in their works.

[Tyler Purcell]

OK another problem.. you shouldn't be trying to grade log footage in Avid..

It's not a "grade" it's a "temp" grade so you can watch the footage with SOME decency as you edit.

 

My workflow is that after the cut is done, all finishing is done in DaVinci, with a proper grade.

 

I think Tyler's point might be that he hasn't time for the separate processes so needs to grade and cut in the same environment, if that's the right word.

More like, I don't have the time to deal with power windows. It's a very very very time consuming process, sometimes taking hours to do one shot. Not saying this is a "problem" with any specific camera system, but it's just one part of the "ease of use" workflow that makes working with certain cameras a lot easier. Again.. this goes back to my comment about "getting it in camera" and how I strive for that because a lot of times, whoever you hand the footage over to, maybe not understand how to grade it properly, especially with commercial/industrial and documentary work, which is the vast majority of my work.

[Tyler Purcell]

My favorite color is blue so when Tyler says every camera should have a native warmth... well, I disagree.

Why would blue not be blue in a camera system with a "warm" imager?

[Tyler Purcell]

That's...an expensive toy, sir. ;-) But it's fine, all cameras are toys, some are just more fun to play with than others. I've decided to go with the Ursa Mini Pro, anyway. Already in my cart at B&H. Along with a set of Rokinon DS lenses. If I still feel the same way about it tomorrow, I'll checkout.

 

What do you think? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1258892-REG/rokinon_cine_ds_6_lens.html

Those are the lenses I have, they work great. Don't forget to save up for the OLPF, which is one of the key accessories necessary to make the camera work well. Looks like they may have sold out of their first batch, but I'd for sure shoot them a call and see what the story is. http://mosaicengineering.com/products/vaf/bm/um-buy.html

[Samuel Berger]

 

 

Just google it.. there must be literally thousands of hours of fs7 footage online.. I have used the fs7II once last year on a corp shoot but I don't have the footage.. it went back to the US.. Im never editing my footage..Im not arguing about the C300 image.. Ive always like their REC709.. my personal problem was the design of the actual camera.. and then the C700.. over priced.. not enough and way too late..

 

So apparently this harmless piece of kiddie fluff was shot on a Sony FS7. Actually two Sony Fs7 and one Sony A7r II, recorded to Atomos Shogun for 2k color corrected dailies, lensed with Zeiss Compact Primes.

.

 

It looks awful in some scenes, alright in others. I've learned not to trust trailers, however.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

the hammer is nothing to the fool making a cake, Samuel (not to call you or anyone here a fool, just a fun quote)

[Matt Thomas]

My two favorite episodes were centered on Churchill - one was about the deadly London fog of 1952 that killed 4000 people, the other was about the portrait that Parliament commissioned, a great two-person drama as Churchill and his portrait painter discuss art and discover just how much is revealed personally by an artist in their works.

 

So good! I really liked the look of the episode with the photographer and the Queen's sister, all the scenes in his studio honestly. There was also an episode in season 1, that I can't remember for the life of me, that had a scene that was shot with a phantom or something during a parade? Beautifully done.

[Tyler Purcell]

It looks awful in some scenes, alright in others. I've learned not to trust trailers, however.

So we did a similar movie on the C300MKII. Mind you... some of this was from the finished movie and some of it is from way before we finished, so it wasn't colored by us. I submitted a killer teaser to them, but they made this shitfest.

 

Ohh notice the shot with her next to the horse and the background that isn't totally blown out... jesus that whole sequence of scenes was a blown out mess out of camera, but there was enough latitude to fix it. Again, if the C300MKII was in the URSA Mini Pro package... I would have bought one years ago. But alas, the package and codec's aren't worth it.

 

[Stuart Brereton]

I don't have the time to deal with power windows. It's a very very very time consuming process, sometimes taking hours to do one shot.

Any competent colorist should be able to create and feather a window in a few seconds. Tracking the window may take a little longer, but I don't think I've ever spent more than about 5 minutes on a power window.

[Samuel Berger]

So we did a similar movie on the C300MKII. Mind you... some of this was from the finished movie and some of it is from way before we finished, so it wasn't colored by us. I submitted a killer teaser to them, but they made this shitfest.

 

Ohh notice the shot with her next to the horse and the background that isn't totally blown out... jesus that whole sequence of scenes was a blown out mess out of camera, but there was enough latitude to fix it. Again, if the C300MKII was in the URSA Mini Pro package... I would have bought one years ago. But alas, the package and codec's aren't worth it.

 

 

NIGHT AND DAY! I loooooove the C300 Mark II. If only I had about 3k more...

 

Funny that Bailee Madison is in both examples. It helps to make a comparison.

[Stuart Brereton]

 

So apparently this harmless piece of kiddie fluff was shot on a Sony FS7. Actually two Sony Fs7 and one Sony A7r II, recorded to Atomos Shogun for 2k color corrected dailies, lensed with Zeiss Compact Primes.

.

 

It looks awful in some scenes, alright in others. I've learned not to trust trailers, however.

MarVista are not a company renowned for the quality of their movies. They are generally shot in 12-15 days on very low budgets. With no time and no money, often the finer points of filmmaking go out the window. Also, you may be looking at trailer cut from ungraded dailies rather than the finished movie. Don't be too quick to judge any one aspect of this.